998cc another clutch chatter

[steve3410]

Sorry for another clutch question
My Wife got her license last year and We picked up a 2011 rss auto. She loves it and we plan on touring if We're ever allowed. So just to practice packing and riding a little further we went for an overnighter last week. On the way back we got caught in heavy stop and go traffic for 1/2-3/4 hr. Her bike gave her a check trans message a couple of times so we stopped and ate to let traffic go and cool it off (oil was high on stick). We then traveled another 3/4 hr and stayed overnight, She got the check trans message twice while leaving intersections not while moving.
Two things I see online they say keep the revs above 3800-4000, How do you do that in traffic?
Now it chatters while in first or reverse sitting still. It had 10-40 amsoil in it with about 2500 km on it.
I've changed the oil to the 5-30 synth the dealer has but I don't think its as good as amsoil and it didn't change anything. There's no apparent clutch in the filters or oil. I see a lot of threads that say they just do this live with it. well it didn't do it last week. I believe the clutch is glazed or slightly burned from slipping in slow traffic. Is there any clutch adjusment on these?
Thanks Steve
Ps one rider no big load.

 

[BajaRon]

5/30 is a bit light for the Spyder. But this started while on Amsoil 10/40. So while the lighter oil may be aggravating the issue. It isn't the cause.

What specs. does the current oil have?

There is no adjustment on these clutches. Replacement is your only option if there is a problem. You do want to keep the revs up, as suggested. In traffic you may need to force the trans to remain in 1st gear or a lower gear that will meet the RPM requirement.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Steve, the "live with it" clutch chatter was due to a design change for the 2013 model year and up. It was a design change that made the clutch better but caused that unintended consequence. Not applicable to you.

In slow or stop and go traffic, you wouldn't continuously or prolongedly slip a manual clutch, so don't do the same with your SE5 clutch. The problem is that it's not as obvious to the operator if they are doing that. Here's the thing...It's not a torque converter or an auto transmission. It's a centrifugally engaged clutch...using engine RPM for engagement rather than a hand operated lever. But the principle is the same. So, you don't want to continuously creep along in traffic slipping the clutch at low RPM. And no, you can't keep the revs up high in that situation. Instead, you just bump it and then coast. In other words, you'll operate differently than in your auto transmission car in that type of traffic situation. In stop and go traffic, manage the clutch the same as if it were a manual clutch. Because essentially it is..it just engages differently. The two of you will have to evaluate if that is what was happening. And yes, SE5 clutches have been burnt by folks by riding in a parade, creeping along at parade speed for a long time.

The whole gist, then, of the RPM thing, is to not lug down the engine while continuously riding at speed. Keep a maintained RPM up over 3500 to ensure the centrifugal unit is fully engaged. You can feel that when it happens somewhere between 2500 and 3000 ....and shift over 4500 to 5000. That keeps your RPM up as you enter the next gear. If your clutch is damaged and needs replacement, the good news is that I believe you get the new design clutch pack. The bad news is that you may be correct about what happened and that it does need replacement. Sorry for the setback, but this too, can be fixed.

 

[steve3410]

Thanks Ron and Doug
Ok so She probably glazed or burnt the clutch? The oil didn't smell bad and wasn't too dark for the mileage. Do You think if its just glazed it could be useable? I don't see clutches around I emailed Barrnet and they said they only have a clutch for the standard.
Would a car guy be able to change the clutch or is there voodoo (electronics) involved? I looked at the canam drawing online and it's just a centrifugal clutch. Is there clearances to set or plug and play?
Thanks again Steve

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Go ahead and purchase the downloadable shop manual. It will help a lot.

https://www.emanualonline.com/motor...-rs-s-roadster-service-manual-emo-462523.html

In a nutshell, the SE5 clutch assembly is a clutch pack sandwiched between two pressure plates. What BRP is calling the centrifugal clutch assembly - that weird looking round unit - is not a clutch at all - in a traditional sense. It’s a centrifugally operated pressure plate. That’s what the rollers do…push a pressure plate in against the clutch pack. On the other end is a hydraulically operated pressure plate that the HCM operates during shifting. At all other times it exerts pressure on the clutch pack by spring pressure. It mainly differs from the manual pack because it uses a spring disc vice coil springs. There are probably some other differences.

So, at operating RPM, the clutch pack is engaged by the two pressure plates squeezing it together. At idle, the rollers in the centrifugal assembly are pulled inward, thus the force from that pressure plate is removed. In your case, the discs is the clutch pack are dragging and shuttering due to the damage to them. As RPM increases, the rollers are forced outward applying pressure to the pack and causing engagement. There is slippage for awhile, like there would be for any clutch, until RPM is high enough for the rollers to exert enough force for full engagement. Your clutch probably feels ok at this point. And then when RPM comes down again when stopping, the rollers are brought back inward, that pressure plate force is removed, and the clutch pack disengages. And you begin feeling the shuttering again. Chances are that the centrifugal unit is fine. Just the clutch pack needs changed. But as long as it’s so completely apart, you might want to replace the whole thing.

The manual will explain the whole thing of how to replace it all. No voodoo electronics. You can order parts yourself if you wanted. Just look up your year and model on cheapcycleparts.com. With the manual, I would think any car or motorcycle guy could do it.

In the mean time, as long as you have the correct oil in it, since it’s already wounded why not ride it around a little and see what happens. Good luck. It’ll all work out.

 

[oldgoat]

Those were great explanations Doug.

If I had an SE5 model I would save them in my Spyder files.

 

[BajaRon]

Thanks Ron and Doug
Ok so She probably glazed or burnt the clutch? The oil didn't smell bad and wasn't too dark for the mileage. Do You think if its just glazed it could be useable? I don't see clutches around I emailed Barrnet and they said they only have a clutch for the standard.
Would a car guy be able to change the clutch or is there voodoo (electronics) involved? I looked at the canam drawing online and it's just a centrifugal clutch. Is there clearances to set or plug and play?
Thanks again Steve

If the clutch friction plates are slightly glazed, and not worn too much. I would say that they could be salvaged with some Emory paper and a good, flat surface. But if any of the steel plates are warped, even a little bit, then you are going to need a replacement kit. You could also have a broken spring, or some other contributing factor, that could be replaced, saving you a full clutch rebuild. But I think you should go into this expecting to replace the clutch pack.

 

[steve3410]

Cool thanks for the great explanation. I’m going to pull it to inspect. Thanks for the cheap bike parts recommendations. Steve

 

[pegasus1300]

Thanks for the cheap bike parts recommendations. Steve". When you go to Cheapcycleparts.com be sure to register with them,you will get a better price. Good luck on your project.

 

[steve3410]

thanks pegasus but they don't ship to canada "covid". hopefully the manual and new shock show up today. clutch next week.
Steve

 

[steve3410]

Ok manual didn’t come on time. So I pulled the clutch cover bolts and the cover is held by a spring or control cable. I have a clutch kit coming but I want see how bad it is. How do I get the cover off?

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

PM sent.

 

[aka1004]

i have a 15 rs and clutch chatter when oil/engine is cold but mostly goes away once warmed up but sometimes clutch reengages hard when i let go of throttle dragging the spyder down and other times it feels like there is something caught in the clutch plates/ heavy. its so sporadic i have not taken it in for service but it does happen here and there.
both of my RS, 09 and 15 had clutch slippage when upshifting here and there especially at higher rpm. i've tried synthetic valvoline, castrol, purple stuff and mobil 1 and i settled on mobil 1 as i got least of slippage with it.

 

[steve3410]

Ok clutch pulled out. It looks fine and smells ok. I soaked the plates and reassembled it. So far everything is cool just working on the rider keeping the revs up a little more. She’s never rode a bike just passenger on my Harley so probably used to lower revs. New tire , clutch inspected, oil changed, and hopefully change the rear shock next week. The shock seems ok but it’s leaking a little.
Thanks for all the help, Steve.

 

[steve3410]

Ok f###.
Went about an hour on Sunday just check it out. She rode to work yesterday20 minutes each way highway. Rode to work today and got two check trans lights on the way home. Runs and drives fine, it’s about a quarter inch above full on 5-40 XPS synthetic. We want to go away in a couple of weeks, and she doesn’t trust it throwing faults.

 

[Tomguitar]

Just read this thread from 07/31/21.
Great explanation from Snowbelt Spyder on how the clutch works. Thank you.

I have a 2013 ST Limited, 998, SE5, 20K miles, all new factory tires, belt pulleys, upgraded suspension front and back. BRP recommended oil with 1k on the oil. Level good per book procedure. One previous owner who only used one dealer for 11 years in Las Vegas. Do not have the past service records, yet.

I have ridden 2 months, over 400 miles with no issues on freeway or city riding. I have had a ball riding again. A week ago, after a short ride followed by parking for an hour, I started up and began to have many of the issues and sounds that Steve3410 was describing.
Like night and day from my first 400 miles. There was no warning signal. Engine light is on. Two Codes both dealing with the 02 sensor. I have a shop manual, but after reading many posts and the manual this could be several different things.

My Spyder Tech is back on July 30, so my ST will be in the shop that day. I hope this is not a full clutch replacement job or bad HCM.
I'd appreciate any thoughts form the brilliant ones in this Forum.

Tom

 

[Spyderryan]

The reason motorcycle should not use car oil is friction modifiers cause wet components like this and starter clutches to slip, If this is the problem you may never get rid of the moly from the sprag clutch but if you use a MC oil and do a couple of hot changes you may undo the problem
Worth a try before tear down, I know it sounds weird but ya, oil can be to slippery and MC oil is not a myth

 

[ARtraveler]

ldpost:

This thread dates back to 7/2021. For information, the thread is very good. For answering people's questions, not so good. :bowdown: