alignment spec.

[fjray]

I read about the benifits of getting the alignment set properly but I haven't found the actual setting. My new RT limiteddrives like an old truck with the wheels toed out to much. what is the spec so I can check it out?

I know everbody faves about the laser method but it's just measuring whats there. I have my own alignment gear just need the setting. TIA.

 

[JayBros]

From my 2014 service manual, and your spec should be the same, toe in is
0[SUP]o[/SUP] +/- 0.2[SUP]o[/SUP]. If you change the alignment you have to reset the steering angle sensor with B.U.D.S. or you're liable to have it throw a code and/or it will still handle like :cus:. I seriously doubt any mechanical alignment system is as accurate as the Rolo laser system which is endorsed by BRP. If mechanical was as good as laser there would be no market for laser. Many vendors who do laser alignments also invest in B.U.D.S. to reset the SAS as part of the job. YMMV.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I've also had a look around but have never been able to find comprehensive wheel alignment specs for any of the Spyders, but I'd be very interested if anyone does have them - mine is a 2013 RT Ltd, & I suspect the various models/years may have had some changes in things like caster & camber angles even if the toe in/out specs are the same.....

Anyone ever come across the full wheel alignment & steering gear specs?

 

[fjray]

From my 2014 service manual, and your spec should be the same, toe in is
0[SUP]o[/SUP] +/- 0.2[SUP]o[/SUP]. If you change the alignment you have to reset the steering angle sensor with B.U.D.S. or you're liable to have it throw a code and/or it will still handle like :cus:. I seriously doubt any mechanical alignment system is as accurate as the Rolo laser system which is endorsed by BRP. If mechanical was as good as laser there would be no market for laser. Many vendors who do laser alignments also invest in B.U.D.S. to reset the SAS as part of the job. YMMV.

I don't care what you use to measure it with the answer is the same. people like lasers cause they look cool. The machine is only as good as the operator.

 

[PaladinLV]

I don't care what you use to measure it with the answer is the same. people like lasers cause they look cool. The machine is only as good as the operator.

:banghead: :roflblack:

 

[Cruzr Joe]

But without the B.U.D.S. system you cannot reset the steering in the computer and this may cause you computer problems.


Cruzr Joe

 

[PMK]

In theory, if the steering sensor is currently calibrated and the handlebars are true when running straight ahead that sensor will not need recalibration.

As for specs, from what I have learned, the Spyder is prone to bump steer. Saying this, no one setting is good for all riders. A heavier rider or a person that loads the frunk will compress the front suspension more than a light rider with no load in the frunk. This suspension compression or lack of suspension compression dictates the amount of bump steer and requirements of the alignment settings.

The laser alignment is a good method. It uses distance to gain accuracy. By taking measurements far from the actual front axle, a small error or adjustment is seen as a large dimension measurement.

The Rolo system and those that use it constantly have the specs they prefer.

The previous BRP method, that has caused some grief is based on ride height and rider weight. Similar to setting sag on a dirt bike or sportbike, the chassis is calibrated to the riders weight. Based on this, the toe in / toe out is varied.

Someone else posted this document. It will work if you have the equipment for alignments. The greatest challenge is ensuring the steering remains true and you are certain the rear wheel is tracked properly. (send me a PM with your email since the PDF is too large to post, or search for Service Bulletin 2014-6 Roadster Alignment Specification)

FWIW, I aligned our machine with toe sticks. Based on how the machine felt during cornering and straight line, it was apparent the machine was delivered with excess toe out. I made small adjustments until the cornering was dialed in and the bars remained straight. Once completed, I had a friend, slightly heavier than myself sit on the machine while I measured the actual toe dimension in inches. Based on previous setup of other vehicles I liked the numbers and have been there since.

FWIW, before you do your alignment, get a good balance on the front wheels. Ours had one wheel at 0.0 and the other was out of balance by over 1 oz. I dynamically balanced the wheels myself, using weights on each rim flange as needed.

Smooth and straight now.

All the best with it.

PK

 

[Lastchance]

I don't care what you use to measure it with the answer is the same. people like lasers cause they look cool. The machine is only as good as the operator.

I agree if you know what you are doing it can be set as good as a laser with toe in preferred otherwise would have a tendency to wonder on the straights, my new F3 seems ok but will be checking when down for the winter already found loose belt and pulley alignment out, will also pull weights and add beads. If 0.2 is correct I would think 1/16 total would be good.

 

[jcthorne]

You want just enough toe IN such that in curves and braking the front wheels never transition past 0 to toe out. IE a heavier loaded bike will need more toe in. For an average rider, approx 0.4 deg total toe in. The Rolo laser system measures this as 1" toe in over 150" measuring distance. Its pretty difficult to measure this small angle without the assistance of the laser system. Not impossible but certainly not easy or quick. You also cannot measure it to the bike center line, must be to the thrust vector which is almost never the same as CL and must be even toe side to side (no skew WRT the thrust vector).

As for BUDS Its not just steering angle sensor. There is also the Dynamic Power steering torque that needs to be zereod at zero steering angle. Otherwise the DPS will be fighting you and it will FEEL like the bike is pulling to one side or the other when its actually the DPS steering it that way for you.

Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the Spyder without frame or control arm modifications.

 

[DrewNJ]

IMHO- it depends on your current setup and what your looking to accomplish.
If your machine rides true, no pulling, and your bars are straight but your looking to tighten things up, then a diy toe adjustment will work. If your bars are cocked or your machine is pulling, then I'd recommend against a diy alignment....simply for the buds reset.

Personally, I was looking to tighten up the handling, and while the machine rode true, I had some pretty obvious toe out.
What I did was to drop the shock adjusters to the lightest setting and used some straps to get considerable sag on the front suspension. From there I made equal adjustments on the right and left tie rods until I was ever so slightly toed in. I used 2 lengths of 3' angle iron that I attached horizontally to each wheel. Measured left to right in front and behind the wheels. Once I was happy with the settings I went for a spin and found I was supper happy with the results.

A month or so later I had the dealer check to see if the sensors needed to be zero'd out and while he said he hit the button to zero, he also said it was pretty much dead on.

I'm fairly certain I'm running more toe than recommended, but I'm a pretty big dude and I do ride 2 up quite a bit. It handles fantastic and I could care less about losing a few miles on the tires so it works for me.

 

[PMK]

In order for the belt to run true, the rear axle is effectively adjusted parallel to the engine output shaft. This defines the thrust vector for the bike (exactly 90 deg to the rear axle. Its not adjustable. So the front wheels must be aligned to the thrust vector of the rear wheel, not the frame. All the frames are slightly different due to welding tolerances but the engine to rear axle is true once adjusted or the belt will not run correctly.

So we are setting toe against the thrust line. You want just enough toe IN such that in curves and braking the front wheels never transition past 0 to toe out. IE a heavier loaded bike will need more toe in. For an average rider, approx 0.4 deg toe in. The Rolo laser system measures this as 1" toe in over 150" measuring distance. Its pretty difficult to measure this small angle without the assistance of the laser system. Not impossible but certainly not easy or quick. You also cannot measure it to the bike center line, must be to the thrust vector which is almost never the same as CL and must be even toe side to side (no skew WRT the thrust vector).

As for BUDS Its not just steering angle sensor. There is also the Dynamic Power steering torque that needs to be zereod at zero steering angle. Otherwise the DPS will be fighting you and it will FEEL like the bike is pulling to one side or the other when its actually the DPS steering it that way for you.

Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the Spyder without frame or control arm modifications.

JC, I believe some of your information is inaccurate. If I am wrong I respect those correcting me.

In regards to engine alignment, according the manual it is adjustable and there is a very specific sequence to aligning the engine. The front adjust rod is not true to the longitudinal axis and can be used to reposition the engine countershaft alignment to the rear wheel.

Additionally, there is a specific sequence to fastener tightening during engine install.

In regards to the alignment specs I have, for the 2014 RT series, they offer a target of +.02 for heavy riders of 300 pounds and above to -.02 for light riders of 150 pounds or less. This also factors in expected payloads in the frunk and all alignments is designated for a specific ride height.

PK

 

[jcthorne]

Lets just say the factory does not follow those engine to bike Centerline adjustment specs. And there is no need to go there when doing an alignment. Assuming the belt is running true.

The specs Rolo recommends and WORK are indeed different than BRP but are measured unloaded. The BRP spec assumes you use the BRP prescribed method of removing the shocks and installing spacers which locate the a arms at full loaded position. The Rolo system allows for a proper alignment in the unloaded position. Quick, easy and works.

Looking at the specs they are not that far different. Rolo spec is total toe, BRPs is toe on each wheel.

 

[PMK]

Lets just say the factory does not follow those engine to bike Centerline adjustment specs. And there is no need to go there when doing an alignment. Just adjust toe and skew to the thrust vector, not bike center line. Assuming the belt is running true.

The specs Rolo recommends and WORK are indeed different than BRP but are measured unloaded. The BRP spec assumes you use the BRP prescribed method of removing the shocks and installing spacers which locate the a arms at full loaded position. The Rolo system allows for a proper alignment in the unloaded position. Quick, easy and works.

Looking at the specs they are not that far different. Rolo spec is total toe, BRPs is toe on each wheel. Big difference is that the BRP spec does not resolve skew so toe and steering angle are not identical.

Agree.
The Rolo is good, but does not ensure true centerline thrust alignment.
It could, but is a more complicated process and requires more equipment.

Laser alignment makes sense and done correctly is more accurate than the BRP method.

However, if BRP did not properly position the engine, even with a quality laser alignment, the thrust angle is still in your terms skewed off to pointed left or right.

PK

 

[jcthorne]

I have revised my two responses to remove discussion of thrust angle. Its confusing the issue, not helping. And you are right, the toe must be set evenly right to left with regard to the steering angle. Still not bike center line. The BUDS system is used to adjust the steering angle sensor and DPS torque sensor to zero at a centered steering angle.

 

[Cruzr Joe]

All this info is great, so far over my head that i don't think i would ever mess with it, my solution = Take it to Spyderpops, Lamonster Garage or Pitbull

Powersports and let them Laser Align it for me. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Cruzr Joe

 

[finless]

Yes many people do not know that the DPS also has to be reset not just the steering angle position sensor.
In my opinion after having it done by Ann and Joe and watching it, BUDs is required to do it right.

Bob

 

[Peter Aawen]

.....Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the Spyder without frame or control arm modifications.

That doesn't mean that each or any Spyder has their steering angles or pre-loads set correctly, even from factory; nor does it mean that my Spyder or anyone else's Spyder hasn't hit a kerb or pothole at speed that put all that out of whack, or maybe even just jacked a front wheel up in the wrong spot & skewed it all!! It doesn't take much of a road knock to vary them, & given the right gear it takes even less to 'adjust' them!!

So I'd REALLY like to know what BRP thinks they've set these bikes to originally as far as caster & camber, steering pre-loads etc are concerned so I can compare it to what it actually is; I suspect that very few of them will be at those 'factory' settings any longer, & even minor variations may make a significant difference in the way the bike handles & steers.... which could mean that nothing you do to toe in/out will make much difference to the handling issues some are having! :banghead:

 

[jcthorne]

There are no specs for Caster and Camber from BRP and they are not adjustable. I can tell you that Camber is at or near zero. Measured a few. I have never measured caster on a spyder.

Steering angle and DPS torque at zero steering angle are both SUPPOSED to be set at zero from the factory. They seldom are.

 

[PMK]

That doesn't mean that each or any Spyder has their steering angles or pre-loads set correctly, even from factory; nor does it mean that my Spyder or anyone else's Spyder hasn't hit a kerb or pothole at speed that put all that out of whack, or maybe even just jacked a front wheel up in the wrong spot & skewed it all!! It doesn't take much of a road knock to vary them, & given the right gear it takes even less to 'adjust' them!!

So I'd REALLY like to know what BRP thinks they've set these bikes to originally as far as caster & camber, steering pre-loads etc are concerned so I can compare it to what it actually is; I suspect that very few of them will be at those 'factory' settings any longer, & even minor variations may make a significant difference in the way the bike handles & steers.... which could mean that nothing you do to toe in/out will make much difference to the handling issues some are having! :banghead:

In simple terms, a Spyder steering setup is basically the same as a go kart.

Regarding the castor angles and camber settings. For the most part a modern go kart is more adjustable than the Spyder. The Spyder has lugs welded to the frame. The suspension A arms are all fixed length. So, when the suspension arms are installed, they simply bolt in. The bolts securing the arms should be torqued with the vehicle weighted.

Also, the ball joints press in and are not adjustable like a Ford truck using eccentric bushings.

Pretty much you have a frame welded in a fixture, that sets all the suspension hard points or pivots.

No adjustments available without redesigning components or aligning the welded frame.

Bending a component is always a possibility. No easy way to inspect or check, except comparing to the opposite side or another vehicle. Maybe BRP has the specs available to service techs when needed. Overall though, if you followed the issues with MurphyBrowns trailer, you will understand that suspension is R&R for most BRP stuff.

PK

 

[Peter Aawen]

I get ALL that ^^ guys, but the fact is that somewhere in the design process someone HAD to consider Camber, Caster, 'A' arm lengths, arcs of movement, the optimal torque & pre-loads for all the bushes & bolts & power steering sector arms & a bunch more stuff to do with suspension & steering geometry & design - & as shown by MurphyBrown & others, it would be REALLY handy if that person/s let the rest of the world in on the secret of what all that stuff SHOULD BE so all those parameters could be checked when things aren't working or steering right!!

The fact that they aren't meant to be readily adjustable doesn't mean they will always stay exactly where they were put/set in the factory, & it seems no-one has ever questioned IF the factory actually got it right in the first place anyway..... which is odd, seeing that we all know there are just a few other things that don't necessarily leave the factory/ hit the road exactly the way they should?! And that's not even considering all the variations & movements that can/will occur on the road, what with different loads, different sized riders, different road profiles & surfaces - I'd bet that many of the steering & handling issues people express concern about can be traced back to 'inconsistencies' in alignment in the way their bikes left the factory & quite probably how all those 'other' but extremely important alignment specs & parameters have changed since....

But none of us can check that our front wheel & steering gear alignment is actually what it should be cos that seems to be a closely guarded secret at BRP that many riders just ignore as maybe being a part of their steering/handling problems because 'it's not readily adjustable so the manufacturer must've done it right in the first place & nothing I've done since could possibly make that change in any way'

:banghead::banghead:

I'd REALLY like to know what BRP suggests the full wheel alignment specs & steering angles, pre-loads etc are MEANT to be so I can make an informed decision about 'fixing' any of the supposed or otherwise handling &/or steering issues my Spyder may or may not exhibit now or at some time in the future, as I know that just general use on the road may well change any &/or all of them at some time....