21 RTL Handlebar shake at 45 mph. Running out of ideas. Any suggestions?

[WDAVEY]

21 RTL with 3,200 miles. Around the time of the 3,000 mile checkup (coincident with installation of BajaRon sway bar) I developed a shake in the handle bars. Worse at 45 mph, gets a smoother as speed increases to nearly gone at 60. The dealer is trying to help, but they are a small shop with limited Spyder experience.

Things we've tried so far: 1) Spin balance front wheels. 2) Swapped wheels with a brand new demonstrator at the dealer. 3) Removed sway bar end links to rule out sway bar. None of these had any affect on the shake.

I have asked the dealer to laser align the bike to see if that helps, but I'm also looking for other possible causes. Research on the forum suggests a few possibilities including: 1) bad battery or loose connections affecting the DPS. 2) bad shock absorber. 3) Something (computer) associated with the DPS - supposedly the electric assist goes away above 45 mph? 4) Loose suspension components (ball joints)?

Obviously we're clutching at straws and would welcome any experience or suggestions that could cause this.

 

[ThreeWheels]

Check your tire pressure up front. The tire pressure should be around 17 PSI, but both tire pressures should be very close to each other.
The laser alignment is also an obvious tool.

 

[Peter Aawen]

:agree: There is that!

I doubt that a battery or computer effected DPS would give you anything so mild as to be described as just 'a shake in the handlebars'; those DPS type issues tend to be either a continuous drag one way on the steering, or fairly savage & surprising lurches in one direction or another. :yikes:

So before getting too carried away with looking for unlikely DPS issues, besides your number 4 above, I'd be looking at things like ALL the suspension bushes & ball joints etc, including the front & rear frame end bushes on the arms; inspecting the belt & sprockets for signs of chipped/damaged teeth; inspecting the front sprocket for tightness on the output shaft splines (check out all the Forum threads on front sprocket failures - maybe your 'shake' is an early indicator? :dontknow: ); and looking carefully at the front hubs, brakes, & calipers for correct operation and running true... there have been some Spyders with hub facings that weren't true from the factory which introduced a shake that was more noticeable around 40-50 mph! :shocked:

Then again, did you try a set of tires that WEREN'T Kendas?? . There have been more than 'just a few' owners who've chased vibrations like those you describe for years & thru multiple sets of Kendas only to discover their troubling vibration disappeared completely the moment they (finally) bit the bullet & swapped to a 'real' car tire run at an appropriate (lower) pressure for the (lighter) load that our Spyders impose upon them vs that of a car which needs about 28 psi! :banghead:

Dunno if that helps any, but for what it's worth.... Good Luck! :thumbup:

 

[PW2013STL]

I agree with Peter. To rid my 2020 RT of the front end shakes I replace the OEM tires with Vredestein Quatrac tires. When I changed out the OEM's on my wife's F3L to these tires she asked me why I hadn't done it sooner as it made it ride so much better.

 

[jtoro1]

Have you tires checked had mine replace by my dealer under warranty at 1000 miles

 

[WDAVEY]

Thank you all for your interest in helping me. I'll try to answer your questions in order:

Peter - I will ask the dealer to "nut & bolt" all front suspension components as part of the laser alignment. I looked at the belt to rule out a small stone caught in the sprocket or belt, I did not inspect the front sprocket. As far as the hubs, this shake is a recent development. Seems like a bad hub would shake from day 1. I have not tried any other brand of tire, but today ran a brand new set of Kendas temporarily removed from a new demonstrator at the dealer.

PW2013STL and Jtoro1 - I had my tires checked and spin balanced by a local tire shop since I don't expect Spyder/ATV/Snowmobile technicians to be tire experts. The tire shop found no evidence of scalloping or belt separation and minimal weight required to balance. The dealer had raised my tire pressure to 20 psi at the 3,000 mile checkup, so I lowered it to 18 psi with no change in symptoms. My hope was that the tires off the demonstrator would solve my problem and confirm the need for new tires. BTW, I can't find any of the Vredestein Quatrac tires recommended here on the forum. The dealer indicated that BRP would not warranty my tires because they were underinflated at the 3,000 mile checkup. They quoted a price of between $300 - $400 for replacement stock Kendas (not Kanines).

Again, thank you all for your thoughts, keep 'em coming please!

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thank you all for your interest in helping me. I'll try to answer your questions in order:

Peter - I will ask the dealer to "nut & bolt" all front suspension components as part of the laser alignment. I looked at the belt to rule out a small stone caught in the sprocket or belt, I did not inspect the front sprocket. As far as the hubs, this shake is a recent development. Seems like a bad hub would shake from day 1. I have not tried any other brand of tire, but today ran a brand new set of Kendas temporarily removed from a new demonstrator at the dealer.

PW2013STL and Jtoro1 - I had my tires checked and spin balanced by a local tire shop since I don't expect Spyder/ATV/Snowmobile technicians to be tire experts. The tire shop found no evidence of scalloping or belt separation and minimal weight required to balance. The dealer had raised my tire pressure to 20 psi at the 3,000 mile checkup, so I lowered it to 18 psi with no change in symptoms. My hope was that the tires off the demonstrator would solve my problem and confirm the need for new tires. BTW, I can't find any of the Vredestein Quatrac tires recommended here on the forum. The dealer indicated that BRP would not warranty my tires because they were underinflated at the 3,000 mile checkup. They quoted a price of between $300 - $400 for replacement stock Kendas (not Kanines).

Again, thank you all for your thoughts, keep 'em coming please!

You have an Almost new Spyder ... I'm pretty confident ( unless you have hit a very deep pothole or a curb ) that suspension parts are not the issue ... 99 % of handlebar vibes are caused by tire/wheel Imbalance ..... Because you have Kenda tires there is a lot of evidence that they could be defective ... if that is the case no amounts of weight are likely to fix it ..... Also sway bars and alignment is not likely to cause your issue unless they are so severe the bike is not controllable ..... good luck ... Mike ..... Get the tires " spin balanced " by a competent tire mechanic

 

[happyspyder2039]

Placement of wheel weights can cause issues if not in the same area as factory ones. I ditched the weights for ride-on

 

[PMK]

Yesterday, I helped another Spyder owner with a fairly new 21 Sea to Sky. His Spyder from new had a vibration in that 45 to 55 range. The owner, previously owned a 2015 RT series with no vibration, so he knew something was not correct.

He had, under warranty, got the local highly rated shop to try and resolve his vibration problem. The shop stated they rebalanced the tires, stated they swapped entire wheel assemblies with another Spyder and deemed there was nothing wrong. They refused to do anything further, stating it was as it should be.

Upon arriving at my place, as we had discussed during previous phone calls, I offered to balance the tires as a first item. So with that, I removed the right front, and without removing the existing weights, checked balance and it appeared good coming up as 0.00. While spinning on the machine, no abnormalities were seen in the regards to wobble or hop.

Did the same for the left wheel. This left side which was supposedly correctly balanced by the Spyder dealer was out of balance 1 1/4 ounces. Also that left side had no wobble or hop. With that, I correctly dynamically balanced the two front tires.

The owner then test rode it and returned. He commented that the vibration was gone. He was quite happy with that.

Next, I did a quick Toe In check. His new machine was not set correctly for toe in. I made a minor adjustment and he accomplished another test ride. Between the tires being correctly balanced ending the vibration, and adding toe in, he left as a happy owner. He has an upcoming trip, so I suggested get a few more miles on it and then I can do a laser alignment when it cools off and I have more time to do alignments.

Point of my post, most likely your tires are just not correctly balanced. I have seen this a bunch of times and it is an easy fix. Why yours changed after a swaybar install makes no sense, other than possibly now you are more focused, but then again, maybe the shop screwed it up.

 

[WDAVEY]

Thanks again for the suggestions, I'll respond in order posted.

Mike - I've had the tires spin balanced by a local tire chain store, but I'll try another one. Does "road force" balancing add any value? Thanks for your input on suspension hardware.

happyspyder2039 - You mention weight placement, where should weights be placed?

PMK - I had similar experience with my dealer. They determined that my tires were scalloped due to underinflation. The tires are not scalloped as verified by 2 independent tire shops. A local tire shop spin balanced my tires, but they may have not got it perfect (I'll try again). I agree that I became more sensitive after the tire pressure was raised at the 3,000 mile checkup and after I installed the BJ sway bar. I disconnected both ends of the sway bar for a quick test with no change in the shake - as expected.

I have cancelled my appointment for laser alignment since there are no unusual handling issues like "twitchy" steering response.

As a comical add to my dilemma, the shop still has wheels from a demonstrator on my Spyder. When I called this morning to arrange pickup they informed me they were closed for a week due to several techs testing positive for Covid. They're going to see if they can get a tech to come in for an hour to change the wheels back and get me out of there.

I'll be heading for Florida soon, so I'll resume the search for the cause when I get there in early November. Thank you all for your patience and suggestions. I'll let everyone know what the final resolution is as soon as possible.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thanks again for the suggestions, I'll respond in order posted.

Mike - I've had the tires spin balanced by a local tire chain store, but I'll try another one. Does "road force" balancing add any value? Thanks for your input on suspension hardware.

happyspyder2039 - You mention weight placement, where should weights be placed?

PMK - I had similar experience with my dealer. They determined that my tires were scalloped due to underinflation. The tires are not scalloped as verified by 2 independent tire shops. A local tire shop spin balanced my tires, but they may have not got it perfect (I'll try again). I agree that I became more sensitive after the tire pressure was raised at the 3,000 mile checkup and after I installed the BJ sway bar. I disconnected both ends of the sway bar for a quick test with no change in the shake - as expected.

I have cancelled my appointment for laser alignment since there are no unusual handling issues like "twitchy" steering response.

As a comical add to my dilemma, the shop still has wheels from a demonstrator on my Spyder. When I called this morning to arrange pickup they informed me they were closed for a week due to several techs testing positive for Covid. They're going to see if they can get a tech to come in for an hour to change the wheels back and get me out of there.

I'll be heading for Florida soon, so I'll resume the search for the cause when I get there in early November. Thank you all for your patience and suggestions. I'll let everyone know what the final resolution is as soon as possible.

If the spin balance didn't achieve a BALANCED wheel/tire then IMHO the Kenda tires are defective ....I've read on this forum of at least 100 Bad Kenda' tires. ....I would MAKE the dealer fix this .... Mike PS jtoro1 had the same issue :gaah:

 

[PMK]

Thanks again for the suggestions, I'll respond in order posted.

Mike - I've had the tires spin balanced by a local tire chain store, but I'll try another one. Does "road force" balancing add any value? Thanks for your input on suspension hardware.

happyspyder2039 - You mention weight placement, where should weights be placed?

PMK - I had similar experience with my dealer. They determined that my tires were scalloped due to underinflation. The tires are not scalloped as verified by 2 independent tire shops. A local tire shop spin balanced my tires, but they may have not got it perfect (I'll try again). I agree that I became more sensitive after the tire pressure was raised at the 3,000 mile checkup and after I installed the BJ sway bar. I disconnected both ends of the sway bar for a quick test with no change in the shake - as expected.

I have cancelled my appointment for laser alignment since there are no unusual handling issues like "twitchy" steering response.

As a comical add to my dilemma, the shop still has wheels from a demonstrator on my Spyder. When I called this morning to arrange pickup they informed me they were closed for a week due to several techs testing positive for Covid. They're going to see if they can get a tech to come in for an hour to change the wheels back and get me out of there.

I'll be heading for Florida soon, so I'll resume the search for the cause when I get there in early November. Thank you all for your patience and suggestions. I'll let everyone know what the final resolution is as soon as possible.

Whereabouts in Florida are you headed, and are you riding the Spyder here or trailering it?

 

[PMK]

If the spin balance didn't achieve a BALANCED wheel/tire then IMHO the Kenda tires are defective ....I've read on this forum of at least 100 Bad Kenda' tires. ....I would MAKE the dealer fix this .... Mike PS jtoro1 had the same issue :gaah:

Mike, FWIW, not arguing with you, the same shop JToro used is the same shop that screwed up the guys S2S I just worked on. They could not fix the S2S and it was because they had balanced the wheels incorrectly by 1 1/4 oz. I have been too busy at the time JToro needed his done and have not had time to do laser alignment for him. Would have been interesting see just how out of round the tires were. Just too much aircraft work that gets priority.

Granted the oem Kenda tires are not great. From what I notice. If the tires have been balanced and require an appreciable amount of weight, often precession wobble becomes a major factor. This requires a true dynamic balance be accomplished. Then again, it is true that if the Kenda is not round, that can require excess weight also. Typically though I find most are just not balanced correctly. Once correctly balanced, those crappy Kendas run decent on the fronts.

 

[Lamonster]

Sounds like you've tried almost everything. We've been selling these for years with very good results. Read the reviews. Might be worth a try.
https://www.lamonstergarage.com/centramatic-wheel-balancers-full-set-lamonster-approved/

 

[WDAVEY]

Thank you all again for the replies and suggestions. Someday I hope to be able to help someone the way you have helped me.

Mike - Based on feedback from you and PMK I'm going to try another shop to spin balance my tires. Do you have an opinion on "road force" balancing?

PMK - I will trailer my RTL to Fort Myers Beach at the end of October (after "hunting camp" in northern NY). When I get there I will have the tires spin balanced again. Do you have an opinion on "road force" balance?

Lamont - Thank you for all you do for the Spyder community. I appreciate the information on the centramatic balancers. At this point I think I'll replace the tires to correct the problem for about the same cost as the balancers that only mask the problem. Who knows, the way this has been going I'll probably end up with new tires AND the centramatic balancers!

As noted above, my Spyder is in Covid jail until October 11 at the earliest. I'll be heading to Florida soon after I get it back and will continue to diagnose/troubleshoot this problem with my selling dealer in Florida starting around November 1st. I will let everyone know what the outcome is as soon as I can.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thank you all again for the replies and suggestions. Someday I hope to be able to help someone the way you have helped me.

Mike - Based on feedback from you and PMK I'm going to try another shop to spin balance my tires. Do you have an opinion on "road force" balancing?

PMK - I will trailer my RTL to Fort Myers Beach at the end of October (after "hunting camp" in northern NY). When I get there I will have the tires spin balanced again. Do you have an opinion on "road force" balance?

Lamont - Thank you for all you do for the Spyder community. I appreciate the information on the centramatic balancers. At this point I think I'll replace the tires to correct the problem for about the same cost as the balancers that only mask the problem. Who knows, the way this has been going I'll probably end up with new tires AND the centramatic balancers!

As noted above, my Spyder is in Covid jail until October 11 at the earliest. I'll be heading to Florida soon after I get it back and will continue to diagnose/troubleshoot this problem with my selling dealer in Florida starting around November 1st. I will let everyone know what the outcome is as soon as I can.

" Road Force " type spin balance .... I' have no opinion .... As I said earlier if it won't " balance " after a spin balance, I think that tire is very likely DEFECTIVE ........ good luck .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[PMK]

Thank you all again for the replies and suggestions. Someday I hope to be able to help someone the way you have helped me.

Mike - Based on feedback from you and PMK I'm going to try another shop to spin balance my tires. Do you have an opinion on "road force" balancing?

PMK - I will trailer my RTL to Fort Myers Beach at the end of October (after "hunting camp" in northern NY). When I get there I will have the tires spin balanced again. Do you have an opinion on "road force" balance?

Lamont - Thank you for all you do for the Spyder community. I appreciate the information on the centramatic balancers. At this point I think I'll replace the tires to correct the problem for about the same cost as the balancers that only mask the problem. Who knows, the way this has been going I'll probably end up with new tires AND the centramatic balancers!

As noted above, my Spyder is in Covid jail until October 11 at the earliest. I'll be heading to Florida soon after I get it back and will continue to diagnose/troubleshoot this problem with my selling dealer in Florida starting around November 1st. I will let everyone know what the outcome is as soon as I can.

My balancer is not a road force type. I have resolved a bunch of Spyder tire imbalance issues with it. As I mentioned, I did a 21 Sea to Sky the other day. Dealer could not resolve the problem. In 10 minutes or so, it was apparent that a tire was way out of balance. Rebalanced both fronts correctly and no more issues.

Not sure what dealer you use. State Road 80 is almost at my front door over here on the East Coast.

 

[solman]

As a retired auto mechanic with over 40 years experience I can tell you for sure that spin balancers need to have their calibration checked almost daily. This is a routine check and not hard to do. These machines can be knocked out of calibration pretty easily. Also you need a tech who is mindfull of what he is doing. I can't tell you how many times I have found newly balanced tires to be off.
If a tire has you chasing weights or will not zero generally that tire is bad. If this happens with numerous tires, the machine needs service or replacement.

 

[WDAVEY]

Once again, thank you all for your input and knowledge. My Spyder is still in Covid jail at the dealer here in central NY. I'll be taking it to Florida in the next 3 weeks and will resume troubleshooting once I get there. I'll try again to get the front tires spin balanced. If that doesn't work, I'll go for tires other than Kendas.

 

[SpyderGoldwingOwner]

tires
replace
18-20 psi front