2011 RS SE5 Won't start/shift to Neutral - anyone have shifter wiring schematics?

[Cadaverdog]

After reading and rereading this thread and all the comments made, if I was you, I would put it away till you can afford to take it to a shop and have it looked at. There is an electrical gremlin in there somewhere, and all you're doing is throwing parts, time, and frustrations at it. It could be as simple as a safety switch, bad plug, or whatever! BUDS will probably find it, or point you in the right direction. You have had some very good advice, by some very smart people here, and if you have followed what they said and are still coming up short, it's time to step back! Good Luck. I hope you kick that gremlin in the butt soon and get on that thing and ride it!!

I appreciate the advice and I pretty much agree but that won't stop me from continuing to see if I can figure this out while I'm having to wait until I have a few more dollars in my bank account before I can afford to take it to a Can Am mechanic. I don't regret replacing the shifter to attempt to fix the problem because a bad shifter seems to be a common problem with some of the older Spyders but I don't plan on replacing anything else unless I know for sure there's something wrong with it. Once I got the bike started and it still wouldn't shift I was pretty sure the battery wasn't the problem but I took it out and had it tested anyway. My mechanic tested it under load and said it was fine.

Seeking BUDS owners here:

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...-from-someone-with-BUDS&p=1700953#post1700953

 

[Cadaverdog]

Late thought there were few managed to reverse the HCM filter & other problems filter related.

I ignored this comment because I didn't understand it but it is possible the dealer didn't replace the HCM oil filter when they changed the oil when I purchased it. I'll order a new one and replace it and see if that changes anything.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Understanding is the SE defaults to N at start up. You were able to move manually helps but Sorry does not rule out splines being stripped on shift arm. Going into gear without proper input or RPM & addition of front tires not moving likely cause for shut off & flashers. (Yes, probably a code hidden somewhere & an E on the dash in the gear position). A good, fully charged battery with clean tight connections is always helpful. When was last oil & filters change? Maybe you want to consider acquiring a spare shift arm, just-in-case. Unfortunately, I'm on my 3rd arm with just lazy casual ryding. Yours might just need a lil' inspection & tightening :dontknow: :lecturef_smilie: That arm/spline is soft metal & will strip all to easily. Good Luck. opcorn:

Several people have told me this. But the HCM uses oil pressure to shift the transmission. What it might do is shift into neutral after it starts. Today I shut the engine off while it was in reverse on purpose. It started but it didn't shift into neutral. It stayed in reverse.

 

[DickB]

Several people have told me this. But the HCM uses oil pressure to shift the transmission. What it might do is shift into neutral after it starts. Today I shut the engine off while it was in reverse on purpose. It started but it didn't shift into neutral. It stayed in reverse.

That's exactly the way it works. Based on all that you have said and we discussed, it would be good to check the oil pressure.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Late thought there were few managed to reverse the HCM filter & other problems filter related.

I ignored this comment because I didn't understand it but it is possible the dealer didn't replace the HCM oil filter when they changed the oil when I purchased it. I'll order a new one and replace it and see if that changes anything.

Several people have told me this. But the HCM uses oil pressure to shift the transmission. What it might do is shift into neutral after it starts. Today I shut the engine off while it was in reverse on purpose. It started but it didn't shift into neutral. It stayed in reverse.

That's exactly the way it works. Based on all that you have said and we discussed, it would be good to check the oil pressure.

Given what you've told us elsewhere about the way you check your oil, doing it before you ride and not waiting long enough until it's warm enough to get the level & volume right; and the fact that if the oil volume & pressure isn't pretty much EXACTLY RIGHT on these V-Twin Spyders, the computers on them can/will just refuse to shift at all; and with what you tell us you've already checked and hopefully eliminated; all of the above suggests that you may have an oil problem... pressure &/or volume - except that they do usually show codes when that sort of problem happens, at least, they do if it happens while you're riding; so if you haven't been able to ride &/or run the engine for too long in the recent past, then maybe... :dontknow:

So your 'failure to shift' issues could be oil pressure related, for any of number of reasons, including that possibly the HCM filter is the wrong one, &/or maybe it's inserted backwards, so that no oil pressure gets thru at all, but if the SE has changed gears when prompted by the flappy paddles at all since your last oil & filter change, then it's probably not that... But you don't necessarily need a new filter to check that, you could do it now!! :lecturef_smilie:

Or maybe running it with the incorrect volume of oil over a longish period (oil level/volume either too high when it's hot, or too low when it's hot; but you'll likely only see that if you do your oil level check after much longer than it takes to get the radiator cooling system up to fan operating temps; saaay, by running it for at least 30 mins of riding at Hwy revs/speeds with some gear changes up & down, etc.) due to using the incorrect checking process, means the lack/excess of oil volume could've damaged the scavenge &/or pressure pump/s; or possibly even just worn the seals; such that now the engine &/or trans is not getting suitable oil pressure/volume at the right time to even think about doing anything like shifting ... :banghead:

Or maybe the LH Control Module (the Handgrip & selector) has just given up thru age & time or there's no signal getting thru to the TCM or HCM for some other reason... :dontknow:

My thoughts to proceed from where you are now would be to check the oil level properly, even if that means draining it all out and refilling with it just the correct quantity if you can't do the checking process correctly within a couple of minutes AFTERa ride; and checking the HCM filter by taking the cover off, removing it, and visually/physically ensuring it's relatively clean, the right length (there's a long & a short filter for these things, and some have put the short filter in the long housing - but your Spyder just won't change gear if you do that!! ) it'll probably be a tad less messy if the oil is drained when you do unscrew the cover... Oh, & IIRC, the 3 screws aren't all the same length, so you MUST put them back in the correct holes! :sour:

Only after doing all this ^^ would I start looking further afield - there's still things like wiring looms to check, connectors to ensure are properly connecting, and probably a bunch of other stuff you can do while you wait 'til you can get it to a dealer. Good Luck! :cheers:

 

[Cadaverdog]

I'm fairly sure I run the bike long enough to properly check the oil. The operator's guide says run it for 30 seconds, shut it off and check it. I let it run till the fan comes on which takes a few minutes. I have checked it after I rode it a short distance and the level was the same as it was when I checked it before I rode it. I have never let it get less than halfway between full and add or overfilled it. I removed the HCM filter and inspected it. It was completely intact and looked fairly new. But I replaced it anyway. My filter cover only has two bolts and they're the same length. I replaced the paddle shifter.

 

[Cadaverdog]

That's exactly the way it works. Based on all that you have said and we discussed, it would be good to check the oil pressure.

This is probably a stupid question but the shop manual lists a specific part number oil pressure gauge 529 036 142 to use but I can't find one online. It's slightly different than a regular gauge. It has a return line. But I assume I can use one that doesn't have a return line as well. What do you think? I found a way to check the voltages from the TCM to the shift solenoids. I'm going to do that next.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I'm fairly sure I run the bike long enough to properly check the oil. The operator's guide says run it for 30 seconds, shut it off and check it. I let it run till the fan comes on which takes a few minutes. I have checked it after I rode it a short distance and the level was the same as it was when I checked it before I rode it. I have never let it get less than halfway between full and add or overfilled it. I removed the HCM filter and inspected it. It was completely intact and looked fairly new. But I replaced it anyway. My filter cover only has two bolts and they're the same length. I replaced the paddle shifter.

Oil takes a LOT longer than coolant to get up to its correct operating temperature, and it also expands a fair bit in volume while it does that - it NEEDS about 30 minutes of hwy type running or equivalent revs/duration to reach its full volume, anything less means there's probably still going to be some expansion coming (& therefore increased level on the dip-stick! ) as it eventually gets up to its full volume at its correct operating temperature... :banghead:

I'm not sure where you found the 30 seconds run-time in the operator's guide, but if you look back thru the numerous threads discussing the V-Twin Oil checking process here on the Forum, you'll find quite a few posts detailing the correct procedure; I believe there's even some from BRP, and I'm pretty sure that none of them refer to running it for ONLY 30 seconds - unless they say to do that if you've stopped for longer than 2 minutes after already riding it long enough to bring the oil up to temperature?? :dontknow:

There's a couple of things here that might be very important, the first being the amount of time it takes for oil to reach it's correct operating temperature and volume, which, as mentioned above, is significantly longer that it takes for the coolant to get up to temperature and it's also longer than it normally takes to trigger the fan; the second being that the dry-sump system on these things scavenges the oil out of the engine while it's running and circulates it thru the filters & into the reservoir (it may be the other way around, but it's immaterial which way it flows for this discussion) where it's held until pumped out & into circulation again. There is no non-return valve on the bottom of that reservoir, and the reservoir is higher than the lowest point in the engine. So AS SOON as you stop the engine, there's a very good likelihood that oil will gradually start draining back into the depths if the engine. This means that if you leave your Spyder to sit for any longer than a couple of minutes after shutting down from a good run, one long enough to bring the oil up to temp, the oil level in the reservoir will very likely have started to drop as oil drains out of the reservoir and the oil settles into the depths of the engine, in places where it's NEVER meant to sit for very long or in any quantity during operation!! This means that if you leave it overnight or longer, and then only check the oil before you run it again, or even if you have run it for a little bit but not for long enough to get the oil properly up to temp and volume, there's a very good chance that the indicated level in the reservoir is WRONG!! And that might be critical to the continued well-being of your engine, especially in the long run! :shocked:

Just Sayin' But who knows... We are trying to help you, only it's awfully hard trying to diagnose/resolve issues like this over the internet. :dontknow:

 

[Cadaverdog]

Oil takes a LOT longer than coolant to get up to its correct operating temperature, and it also expands a fair bit in volume while it does that - NEEDS about 30 minutes of hwy type running to reach its full volume, anything less means there's probably still going to be some expansion (& therefore increased level on the dip-stick! ) as it eventually gets up to its full volume at its correct operating temperature... :banghead:

I'm not sure where you found the 30 seconds run-time in the operator's guide, but if you look back thru the numerous threads discussing the V-Twin Oil checking process here on the Forum, you'll find quite a few posts detailing the correct procedure; I believe there's even some from BRP, and I'm pretty sure that none of them refer to running it for ONLY 30 seconds - unless they say to do that if you've stopped for longer than 2 minutes after riding long enough to bring the oil up to temperature?? :dontknow:
.....

Since you were so adamant that 30 seconds wasn't enough time I re read the operators manual. It says that but the line before it says if it's at operating temperature. But I always warm in up a lot longer than 30 seconds. And I check it within a couple of minutes after I shut it off. Like I said I have checked it immediately (within a couple minutes) after riding it and got the same reading I got when I checked it after warming it up before I rode it. I probably run it at least 5 minutes at idle and throttle it back a few times before I check it. I had run it several times before I checked it yesterday. And because it was about halfway between full and add when I checked it I started it, let it run a few minutes longer and checked it again. It was right below the full mark. I try to keep it at that level. I'm probably going to work on it again tomorrow. I'll run it even longer before I shut it off and check it and let you know if it shows more or less oil on the dipstick. I could turn it around manually shift it into first gear and ride it a hundred yards or so before I park it and recheck it. I'll keep the RPMs below 4k.

 

[DickB]

Remove the spaces from the part numbers when searching:

https://www.colonialpowerandsport.com/brp-hydraulicpressuregauge-529036142.html

 

[DickB]

From what I understand, what you call the "return" line is connected to a valve to bleed the gauge's oil line. Per my maintenance manual, the test is to read the pressure while the clutch is activating. If you test with air in the line, the reaction time of the gauge is slowed, as the air in the line takes a bit of time to compress. Since you're looking for a quick change in pressure while the clutch is activating, with air in the line you may not see it.

 

[Cadaverdog]

Remove the spaces from the part numbers when searching:

https://www.colonialpowerandsport.com/brp-hydraulicpressuregauge-529036142.html

Thanks. That's a little pricey. Do you think I need to use that particular gauge?

 

[DickB]

Thanks. That's a little pricey. Do you think I need to use that particular gauge?

I think you need to use one that will bleed the line. Maybe you can find another. I would start with verifying that the solenoids are working before moving on to suspect low oil pressure.

If you got an inexpensive gauge, like this one

https://www.harborfreight.com/engin...AcqGG82AHItsgB5_eEupEl2nT_mA1DbsaAmUHEALw_wcB

you could possibly loosen the hose fitting at the gauge to bleed oil into the hose, then tighten it up to do the test. Might be a little messy, but it might work.

 

[Cadaverdog]

I think you need to use one that will bleed the line. Maybe you can find another. I would start with verifying that the solenoids are working before moving on to suspect low oil pressure.

I'll buy the right gauge if I think I still need it. I can't test the solenoids the way the shop manual says without BUDs. I checked the contact circuit but I didn't disconnect the TCM connector from the TCM. I'll have to redo that test tomorrow. I checked the power circuit. The voltage between the individual pins 1 through 4 and ground was 12 volts. The voltage between the individual pins 5 through 8 was 0 volts. That was with the ignition on. It says upshift, downshift, clutch and clutch modulation but it doesn't say anything about manipulating the paddle shifter. I didn't. Other than that I rechecked the oil after I ran the engine for 10 minutes. I revved it up a couple times for good measure. I shut it off and checked it immediately. It was right on the full mark. I disconnect the shifting shaft and put it in first gear. I reconnected the shaft. I restarted it with my foot on the brake. It fired right up and shifted into neutral. I repeated that in reverse. It started but it stayed in reverse.

 

[DickB]

I'll buy the right gauge if I think I still need it. I can't test the solenoids the way the shop manual says without BUDs. I checked the contact circuit but I didn't disconnect the TCM connector from the TCM. I'll have to redo that test tomorrow. I checked the power circuit. The voltage between the individual pins 1 through 4 and ground was 12 volts. The voltage between the individual pins 5 through 8 was 0 volts. That was with the ignition on. It says upshift, downshift, clutch and clutch modulation but it doesn't say anything about manipulating the paddle shifter. I didn't. Other than that I rechecked the oil after I ran the engine for 10 minutes. I revved it up a couple times for good measure. I shut it off and checked it immediately. It was right on the full mark. I disconnect the shifting shaft and put it in first gear. I reconnected the shaft. I restarted it with my foot on the brake. It fired right up and shifted into neutral. I repeated that in reverse. It started but it stayed in reverse.

So oil pressure is likely fine. Your test results puts the forward shift solenoid in question, or some electrical problem with the forward shift solenoid. I would try to test for voltage to that solenoid when it should be activating.

 

[Cadaverdog]

So oil pressure is likely fine. Your test results puts the forward shift solenoid in question, or some electrical problem with the forward shift solenoid. I would try to test for voltage to that solenoid when it should be activating.

I'll do that today.

 

[Cadaverdog]

So oil pressure is likely fine. Your test results puts the forward shift solenoid in question, or some electrical problem with the forward shift solenoid. I would try to test for voltage to that solenoid when it should be activating.

I tested the voltages from the TCM to the connector to the solenoids. They were what they were supposed to be. But the solenoid are activated by a pulse from the TCM as opposed to a voltage. The shop manual explains exactly how the HCM works. I have one downloaded but I can't figure out how to display the pages here. I have the images saved as screenshots but when you click on insert images here it asks for URLs.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I tested the voltages from the TCM to the connector to the solenoids. They were what they were supposed to be. But the solenoid are activated by a pulse from the TCM as opposed to a voltage. The shop manual explains exactly how the HCM works. I have one downloaded but I can't figure out how to display the pages here. I have the images saved as screenshots but when you click on insert images here it asks for URLs.

Don't 'Insert Images' - your best bet to show pics/images in your posts on the Forum is to save them as jpegs or jpgs & then instead of using 'Quick Reply' to post, either select 'Go Advanced' or go straight to the '+ Reply to Thread' button, then scroll right down past the text area (but do eventually add some text please!) to use the Manage Attachments options. You can add or upload to the Forum direct from your computer/phone/posting device; insert the image address; or add a URL. Look for the button down below the text field past 'Additional Options' and in the 'Attachments' section of that block - there's a list of acceptable file types & their maximum sizes there too!

Please PM me if you have any issues getting it done, I should be around on & off for the next 12-14 hours or so, so if I don't respond straight away, just give me 20-30 mins!

 

[DickB]

I tested the voltages from the TCM to the connector to the solenoids. They were what they were supposed to be. But the solenoid are activated by a pulse from the TCM as opposed to a voltage. The shop manual explains exactly how the HCM works. I have one downloaded but I can't figure out how to display the pages here. I have the images saved as screenshots but when you click on insert images here it asks for URLs.

The solenoids are activated by current. For the forward shift solenoid, battery voltage is present at Pin 1. Pin 8 is open. To activate the solenoid, the TCM connects Pin 8 to ground to complete the circuit. If you connect a test light to Pins 1 and 8, you should see a flash of light when the solenoid is to be activated.

Did you test solenoid resistance?

 

[Cadaverdog]

The solenoids are activated by current. For the forward shift solenoid, battery voltage is present at Pin 1. Pin 8 is open. To activate the solenoid, the TCM connects Pin 8 to ground to complete the circuit. If you connect a test light to Pins 1 and 8, you should see a flash of light when the solenoid is to be activated.

Did you test solenoid resistance?

I tested the solenoid resistance but I did it wrong. I'll re do it asap. I've been waiting for the new oil filter I ordered. It was supposed to be here Tuesday. I got it yesterday, Friday. Ticker's been acting up so I haven't been in a big hurry to mess with the bike lately. I plan on working on it tomorrow.