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question for any pilots about the plane crash

cuznjohn

New member
this is in regards to the plane crash in France, the plane was a airbus 320 and they are saying it was most likely on auto pilot. they are also saying that the pilot can over ride the auto but it is difficult to do it. so my question is why would the manufacturer make it hard to shut down the auto pilot in a emergency when all that is needed to do is flip a switch to regain pilot control. there was 150 souls on the plane that lost their life's and if it was not a bomb or major electrical malfunction why would the pilot not take over and fly the plane.
 
I am also watching closely to see what they say. At least they have the black box and it sounds like information will be shared quickly this go around.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
 
I really want to hear what they learn from the telemetry systems. There has got to be more to this story.
 
Waiting...!!

It will be some time before we get much. Heard them say now that there was nothing on the first black box :hun: tough area hope they have helpful weather...:popcorn::popcorn:

Ooops..!! Sorry not a pilot just an opinionated spyder ryder..snoopy will know..:roflblack:
 
this is in regards to the plane crash in France, the plane was a airbus 320 and they are saying it was most likely on auto pilot. they are also saying that the pilot can over ride the auto but it is difficult to do it. so my question is why would the manufacturer make it hard to shut down the auto pilot in a emergency when all that is needed to do is flip a switch to regain pilot control. there was 150 souls on the plane that lost their life's and if it was not a bomb or major electrical malfunction why would the pilot not take over and fly the plane.

I flew the 707,727,DC10 and 747 but am somewhat familiar with the Bus. My son fly's it for American Airlines. Northwest, the Airline I flew for was the lead US airline for the A-320. We trained all other airlines to fly the Bus till they established their own training. The Pitot system is a nightmare. It has iced up and caused several accidents. The fly by wire can over ride the pilots inputs but to the best of my knowledge the pilot cannot "turn off the autopilot" completely. The auto system is always functioning and the onboard computer has the last say. The Boeing system in the later model planes is a fly by wire controlled by computer but complete disengagement of computer and auto system is possible and pilots are trained to fly without computer and auto pilot unlike the Bus. If you are going fly Boeing IMHO.

Jack
 
I flew the 707,727,DC10 and 747 but am somewhat familiar with the Bus. My son fly's it for American Airlines. Northwest, the Airline I flew for was the lead US airline for the A-320. We trained all other airlines to fly the Bus till they established their own training. The Pitot system is a nightmare. It has iced up and caused several accidents. The fly by wire can over ride the pilots inputs but to the best of my knowledge the pilot cannot "turn off the autopilot" completely. The auto system is always functioning and the onboard computer has the last say. The Boeing system in the later model planes is a fly by wire controlled by computer but complete disengagement of computer and auto system is possible and pilots are trained to fly without computer and auto pilot unlike the Bus. If you are going fly Boeing IMHO.

Jack

:agree: That's exactly what I've heard about AirBus, compared to Boeing.

Airbus is built by a consortium of European government entities. The company was formed specifically to compete with Boeing, since Boeing has had the airliner market pretty much dominated. They put more store in their on-board systems than in the pilots' skills.

With the wide-spread retirement of most of the highest-skilled pilots, there is a smaller pool of trained pilots to draw on. I think AirBus has tried to substitute automation for pilot skill, and, IMHO, passengers are taking the risk for it.
 
:agree: That's exactly what I've heard about AirBus, compared to Boeing.

Airbus is built by a consortium of European government entities. The company was formed specifically to compete with Boeing, since Boeing has had the airliner market pretty much dominated. They put more store in their on-board systems than in the pilots' skills.

With the wide-spread retirement of most of the highest-skilled pilots, there is a smaller pool of trained pilots to draw on. I think AirBus has tried to substitute automation for pilot skill, and, IMHO, passengers are taking the risk for it.

You are so correct. You could hardly call todays pilots pilots as they are all taught to fly using the automated systems. The system is unable to allow the pilot to fly when he should take over manually because of a problem. On the newest Boeing 787 you can disconnect from computer input to manually allow the Pilot to fly the airplane. You cannot do this on the Bus. When will the industry come to the conclusion that computers do fail and are unable to look out the window. The last crash in SFO was a Korean Pilot who had never flown a manual approach ever in his training and his first trip into SFO.

Remember the unveiling of the first Airbus at the Paris Airshow crashed because of the above. Our first Airbus and the first commercial flight of the Bus was a trial run at night to Chicago O'hare. Could not get it to leave the holding pattern at 20,000 feet and running low on fuel. We called Toulouse France via phone patch with flight ops and they told us we would have to shut down both engines and recycle the battery switch to reboot the computer. Remember it was late at night. Everything of course went dark. We did this and got a restart at 8000 feet and landed without further ado at O'hare. Needless to say work and changes were done before we put the Airbus into service.

Obviously I am not a fan of the Bus.

Jack
 
You are so correct. You could hardly call todays pilots pilots as they are all taught to fly using the automated systems. The system is unable to allow the pilot to fly when he should take over manually because of a problem. On the newest Boeing 787 you can disconnect from computer input to manually allow the Pilot to fly the airplane. You cannot do this on the Bus. When will the industry come to the conclusion that computers do fail and are unable to look out the window. The last crash in SFO was a Korean Pilot who had never flown a manual approach ever in his training and his first trip into SFO.

Remember the unveiling of the first Airbus at the Paris Airshow crashed because of the above. Our first Airbus and the first commercial flight of the Bus was a trial run at night to Chicago O'hare. Could not get it to leave the holding pattern at 20,000 feet and running low on fuel. We called Toulouse France via phone patch with flight ops and they told us we would have to shut down both engines and recycle the battery switch to reboot the computer. Remember it was late at night. Everything of course went dark. We did this and got a restart at 8000 feet and landed without further ado at O'hare. Needless to say work and changes were done before we put the Airbus into service.

Obviously I am not a fan of the Bus.

Jack

:yikes: that's some scary stuff.
 
they just said on the news that on the voice recorder they could hear that one of the pilots was locked out of the cabin and was banging to get in
 
Jack is correct. Air Bus pilots are taught to allow the computer to do the flying. They can over ride the system, but it is almost never done. Look at it this way. In a Bus, if the pilot tries to do a half roll, the computer will automatically stop that roll at 30 degress of bank. In the Boeing the pilot can do a full roll. The computer doesn't care. The passengers might :yikes:. Only a thorough investigation may explain what happened to the aircraft that crashed.
 

Latest word from different sources said aircraft was breaking up before it hit the mountain. Hmmmmmmm could mean loss of control or structural failure with loss of control.

Jack

 
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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/germanwings-flight-9525-crashed-with-only-1-pilot-in-cockpit/

It appears to have been an intentional act...
It's too bad that the moron took so many innocent people with him... :pray:

Not so sure about that. He could have been incapacitated or never turned on his Oxygen (required when one pilot leaves cockpit above 25,000 ft) and became overcome with his own carbon dioxide or who knows for sure. There was no words spoken on the voice recorder or any sounds from the co-pilot. I think the french prosecutor is jumping to conclusions. This will not be solved by rushing to judgement. There is no conclusive evidence to make this statement!

Of course the French would like to blame it on the co-Pilot. After all the Airbus accidents lately the French have the most to lose in litigation and loss of sales. The Airbus is built in Talouse, France and is a French product with several European partners including Germany.

Jack
 
Not so sure about that. He could have been incapacitated or never turned on his Oxygen (required when one pilot leaves cockpit above 25,000 ft) and became overcome with his own carbon dioxide or who knows for sure. There was no words spoken on the voice recorder or any sounds from the co-pilot. I think the french prosecutor is jumping to conclusions. This will not be solved by rushing to judgement. There is no conclusive evidence to make this statement!

Of course the French would like to blame it on the co-Pilot. After all the Airbus accidents lately the French have the most to lose in litigation and loss of sales. The Airbus is built in Talouse, France and is a French product with several European partners including Germany.

Jack

Are you speaking of respiratory acidosis? How common is that for those in the cockpit? Might the passengers also be affected by it?
 
Are you speaking of respiratory acidosis? How common is that for those in the cockpit? Might the passengers also be affected by it?

They are not breathing into an enclosed Oxygen Mask when no oxygen is being added. Cockpit oxygen masks are enclosed to keep smoke etc. from entering. If oxygen is not being put in under pressure you would be breathing only your own exhaled air which contains no oxygen. The turning on of oxygen is on the before start checklist and can be missed. This is not uncommon. The passenger oxygen masks are of a much different design.

Jack
 
Makes the U.S. requirement to always have two crew members in the cockpit look very prudent . . . and as jaherbst said . . . fly Boeing! The EC-135 always brought me home, safely!
 
Here is what I found about the co-pilot and the crash.

PARIS (AP) — The co-pilot of the Germanwings jet barricaded himself in the cockpit and intentionally rammed the plane full speed into the French Alps, ignoring the captain's frantic pounding on the door and the screams of terror from passengers, a prosecutor said Thursday.



In a split second, all 150 people aboard the plane were dead.
Andreas Lubitz's "intention (was) to destroy this plane," Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin said, laying out the horrifying conclusions French investigators reached after listening to the last minutes of Tuesday's Flight 9525 from the plane's black box voice data recorder.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the conclusions brought the tragedy to a "new, simply incomprehensible dimension."
The prosecutor said there was no indication of terrorism, and did not elaborate on why investigators do not suspect a political motive. He said they are instead focusing on the co-pilot's "personal, family and professional environment" to try to determine why he did it.
The Airbus A320 was flying from Barcelona to Duesseldorf when it lost radio contact with air traffic controllers and began dropping from its cruising altitude of 38,000 feet. The prosecutor said Lubitz did not say a word as he set the plane on an eight-minute descent into the craggy French mountainside that pulverized the plane.
He said the German co-pilot's responses, initially courteous in the first part of the trip, became "curt" when the captain began the mid-flight briefing on the planned landing.
Robin said the pilot, who has not been identified, left the cockpit when the plane reached cruising altitude, presumably to go to the lavatory. Then the 28-year-old co-pilot took control of the jet as requested.
"When he was alone, the co-pilot manipulated the buttons of the flight monitoring system to initiate the aircraft's descent," Robin said.
View gallery

A French gendarme helicopter flies over the crash site of Germanwings Airbus A320, near Seyne-les-Al …

The pilot knocked several times "without response," the prosecutor said, adding that the cockpit door could only be blocked manually from the inside.
The co-pilot said nothing from the moment the captain left, Robin said. "It was absolute silence in the cockpit."
The A320 is designed with safeguards to allow emergency entry into the cockpit if a pilot inside is unresponsive. But the override code known to the crew does not go into effect — and indeed goes into a lockdown — if the person inside the cockpit specifically denies entry.
During the flight's final minutes, pounding could be heard on the cockpit door as the plane's instrument alarms sounded. But the co-pilot's breathing was calm, Robin said.
"You don't get the impression that there was any particular panic, because the breathing is always the same. The breathing is not panting. It's a classic, human breathing," Brice said.
No distress call ever went out from the cockpit, and the control tower's pleas for a response went unanswered.
Air traffic control cleared the area to allow the plane to make an emergency landing if needed, and asked other planes to try to make contact. The French air force scrambled a fighter jet to try to head off the crash.
Just before the plane hit the mountain, passengers' cries of terror could be heard on the voice recorder.
View gallery

Graphic shows aircraft and victims by country; 2c x 5 inches; 96.3 mm x 127 mm;

"The victims realized just at the last moment," Robin said. "We can hear them screaming."
The victims' families "are having a hard time believing it," he said.
Many families visited an Alpine clearing near the scene of the crash Thursday. French authorities set up a viewing tent in the hamlet of Le Vernet for family members to look toward the site of the crash, so steep and treacherous that it can only be reached by a long journey on foot or rappelling from a helicopter.
Lubitz' family was in France but was being kept separate from the other families, Robin said.
Helicopters shuttled back and forth form the crash site Thursday, as investigators continue retrieving remains and pieces of the plane, shattered from the high-speed impact of the crash.
The prosecutor's account prompted calls for stricter cockpit rules.
Airlines in Europe are not required to have two people in the cockpit at all times, unlike the standard U.S. operating procedure, which was changed after the 9/11 attacks to require a flight attendant to take the spot of a briefly departing pilot.
Europe's third-largest budget airline, Norwegian Air Shuttle, announced Thursday that it plans to adopt new rules requiring two crew members to always be present in the cockpit.
View gallery

Germanwings CEO Thomas Winkelmann, left, and Lufthansa Group CEO Carsten Spohrin arrive for a press …

Neither the prosecutor nor Lufthansa indicated there was anything the pilot could have done to avoid the crash.
Robin would not give details on the co-pilot's religion or his ethnic background. German authorities were taking charge of the investigation into him.
Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said that before Thursday's shocking revelations, the airline was already "appalled" by what had happened in its low-cost subsidiary.
"I could not have imagined that becoming even worse," he said in Cologne. "We choose our cockpit staff very, very carefully."
Lubitz joined Germanwings in September 2013, directly out of flight school, and had flown 630 hours. Spohr said the airline had no indication why he would have crashed the plane.
He underwent a regular security check on Jan. 27 and it found nothing untoward, and previous security checks in 2008 and 2010 also showed no issues, the local government in Duesseldorf said.
Lufthansa's chief said Lubitz started training in 2008 and there was a "several-month" gap in his training six years ago. Spohr said he couldn't say what the reason was, but after the break "he not only passed all medical tests but also his flight training, all flying tests and checks."
Robin avoided describing the crash as a suicide.
"Usually, when someone commits suicide, he is alone," he said. "When you are responsible for 150 people at the back, I don't necessarily call that a suicide."
In the German town of Montabaur, acquaintances told The Associated Press that Lubitz appeared normal and happy when they saw him last fall as he renewed his glider pilot's license.
"He was happy he had the job with Germanwings and he was doing well," said a member of the glider club, Peter Ruecker, who watched Lubitz learn to fly. "He gave off a good feeling."
Lubitz had obtained his glider pilot's license as a teenager, and was accepted as a Lufthansa pilot trainee after finishing a tough German college preparatory school, Ruecker said. He described Lubitz as "rather quiet" but friendly.
Lubitz's Facebook page, deleted sometime in the past two days, showed a smiling man in a dark brown jacket posing in front of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. The Facebook page was restored after the French prosecutor's news conference.
The principal of Joseph Koenig High School in Haltern, Germany, which lost 16 students and two teachers in the crash, said the state governor called him to tell him about the probe's conclusion.
"It is much, much worse than we had thought," principal Ulrich Wessel said. "It doesn't make the number of dead any worse, but if it had been a technical defect then measures could have been taken so that it would never happen again."
The circumstances of the crash are reviving questions about the possibility of suicidal pilots and the wisdom of sealing off the cockpit.
Philip Baum, London-based editor of the trade magazine Aviation Security International, said, "The kneejerk reaction to the events of 9/11 with the ill-thought reinforced cockpit door has had catastrophic consequences."
___
McHugh reported from Montabaur, Germany. David Rising in Berlin; Kirsten Grieshaber in Cologne, Germany; Alan Clendenning in Madrid; Danica Kirka in London; Sylvie Corbet, Philippe Sotto and Angela Charlton in Paris; and Greg Keller in Vernet, France, contributed to this report.
 
As said, the US requires two in the cockpit at all times so this scenerio must have been considered at our end. Very tragic and useless waste of good peoples lives due to one idiots desire. My heart felt sympothys go to all of the families and friends that must live with this loss.
 
I also heard that the European carriers and also considering adding keypad access to the door to prevent a pilot from being locked out in the future. This might be in addition to the two person in the cockpit rule, apparently also under consideration.

Nothing moves quickly in airline regulation. It might take a while to implement these changes.
 
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