Another question for the gurus

[Magdave]

Please explain the purge valve operation. When does it open? Does the bike pop a code if it doesn't? Thanks in advance :thumbup:

 

[Bob Denman]

:dontknow:
But I think that SpyderAnn01 had some trouble with hers; she might be able to shed some light on it for you... :thumbup:

 

[jcthorne]

I cannot answer the specifics of when it is supposed to open but can answer the second part. No, there is no code nor does the ECM know if the valve opens or not. Unlike the vapor purge valve on most modern automobiles, this one has no feedback circuit. Its a simple two wire solenoid. The ECM has no way to determine if it opens or not or if there is any flow.

 

[Chupaca]

Have to agree..!!

:agree: there you have it....:thumbup:

 

[Magdave]

I cannot answer the specifics of when it is supposed to open but can answer the second part. No, there is no code nor does the ECM know if the valve opens or not. Unlike the vapor purge valve on most modern automobiles, this one has no feedback circuit. Its a simple two wire solenoid. The ECM has no way to determine if it opens or not or if there is any flow.

That's not good nor what I was hoping to hear. I know in some engine applications things opening up via vacuum are detected via RPM differences due to vacuum changes. I am trying to figure out if the issue I have is because the purge valve is not opening causing excess vapors to contaminate the canister causing fumes and drips. It does not make a lot of sense to replace the canister if it is going to repeat because the purge valve is defective. How do we know if it is functioning? Just trying to get my ducks lined up for my trip to the dealer......

 

[Magdave]

P0459
P0458
P0443

& from the horse's mouth...

As the vehicle is sitting and not running, fuel evaporates within the fuel tank. The fuel tank vent is connected to an EVAP canister (charcoal) that is used to trap any hydrocarbon emissions from the evaporated fuel preventing them from escaping to the atmosphere. The fuel vapors are absorbed by a charcoal medium inside the canister. An EVAP purge valve is used in conjunction with the EVAP canister. A hose connects the solenoid operated valve to a vacuum port on the th rottle body. Once the engine is running and reaches a prede– termined engine RPM, the ECM energizes the purge solenoid valve open. Thus, vacuum from the engine draws (or purges) the hydrocarbon emissions from the canister and burns them during the combustion process. The ECM cycles the solenoid ON and OFF as necessary. Should the canister overfil l with liquid fuel , an overflow hose is provided to direct the fuel under the vehicle.

We were typing at the same time Roger :thumbup: So it can detect the electrical end but what about the mechanical function of the valve itself? I have heard about it being stuck before.

 

[NancysToy]

No way to detect the mechanical function of the purge valve without testing it per the procedures outlined in the shop manual. Keep in mind that failure to open can also be caused just by not reaching the RPM/vacuum thresholds programmed into the ECM. A purge valve can test as fully functional in those cases, and still seldom open. I wonder if tapping in a monitoring LED into the circuit would shed some light on the subject?

 

[Magdave]

No way to detect the mechanical function of the purge valve without testing it per the procedures outlined in the shop manual. Keep in mind that failure to open can also be caused just by not reaching the RPM/vacuum thresholds programmed into the ECM. A purge valve can test as fully functional in those cases, and still seldom open. I wonder if tapping in a monitoring LED into the circuit would shed some light on the subject?

And that plays into my question, which is, when and how often does it open? I figured there must be some parameters for it to open including those you mentioned. Could other components being faulty or inaccurate play into it? I am assuming it would happen either at certain RPMs or during acceleration points . Just what makes it tick ? Just trying to wrap my head around the reason for gas drips. I am guessing if it were pulling enough , often enough, there would be no fumes or drips.

 

[NancysToy]

And that plays into my question, which is, when and how often does it open? I figured there must be some parameters for it to open including those you mentioned. Could other components being faulty or inaccurate play into it? I am assuming it would happen either at certain RPMs or during acceleration points . Just what makes it tick ? Just trying to wrap my head around the reason for gas drips. I am guessing if it were pulling enough , often enough, there would be no fumes or drips.

I can't say how the Spyder is specifically programmed. Most are predicated on a certain rpm and vacuum level, so they open only at moderately high rpm levels, at moderate to high vacuum. Most purge valve problems arise from vacuum leaks when they fail to close, not open, so this is different. Most of the Spyder's problems are due to inadequate canister volume, bad canister location, inadequate rise in the tank vent line, and excessive trapped heat from the exhaust and engine, IMO. These design problems can be exacerbated by low rpm operation and ambient weather conditions (hot/sunny). I come from an era of directly vented gas tanks, so the fumes do not bother me. I don't get any substantial drips, but extending the vent hose to the rear of the machine would address that if it could be done without air-locking it or running it in a very hot location. It would not need to be done unless it dripped enough to puddle, anyway. A few drops is not dangerous, IMO. The tank vent might benefit from an atmoshpheric loop if you could find enough height above the tank, but I'm not sure if it would function properly if looped 360 or 720 degrees lower down.

 

[Magdave]

I can't say how the Spyder is specifically programmed. Most are predicated on a certain rpm and vacuum level, so they open only at moderately high rpm levels, at moderate to high vacuum. Most purge valve problems arise from vacuum leaks when they fail to close, not open, so this is different. Most of the Spyder's problems are due to inadequate canister volume, bad canister location, inadequate rise in the tank vent line, and excessive trapped heat from the exhaust and engine, IMO. These design problems can be exacerbated by low rpm operation and ambient weather conditions (hot/sunny). I come from an era of directly vented gas tanks, so the fumes do not bother me. I don't get any substantial drips, but extending the vent hose to the rear of the machine would address that if it could be done without air-locking it or running it in a very hot location. It would not need to be done unless it dripped enough to puddle, anyway. A few drops is not dangerous, IMO. The tank vent might benefit from an atmoshpheric loop if you could find enough height above the tank, but I'm not sure if it would function properly if looped 360 or 720 degrees lower down.

Thanks Scotty I AM trying to not be paranoid but the spots on my mat are adding up and the smell stronger. No design argument from me (especially on the 2013s). I run higher RPMs heck I hardly ever am below 5k and shift at 7-8k so it should be pulling for me. I am not sure (and I doubt) liquid gas is getting into the canister, My rides mostly have been started with less than 3/4 in the tank. I only fill when I am a good distance from home if needed. I am very careful on filling and always have been 1in below the hole minimum. But if you looked at my poll many say they have NEVER smelled gas like some of us do so there has to be a reason :dontknow:

 

[NancysToy]

Thanks Scotty I AM trying to not be paranoid but the spots on my mat are adding up and the smell stronger. No design argument from me (especially on the 2013s). I run higher RPMs heck I hardly ever am below 5k and shift at 7-8k so it should be pulling for me. I am not sure (and I doubt) liquid gas is getting into the canister, My rides mostly have been started with less than 3/4 in the tank. I only fill when I am a good distance from home if needed. I am very careful on filling and always have been 1in below the hole minimum. But if you looked at my poll many say they have NEVER smelled gas like some of us do so there has to be a reason :dontknow:

There are differences between machines (inexplicably), differences between storage conditions and ventilation, and vast differences in the abilities for different individuals to detect some odors. Like many things, it is hard to compare.

 

[BajaRon]

The purge system is designed to operate much more than needed to assure that no accumulation of vapors occurs. If you're getting raw fuel on a regular basis, something is definitely wrong.

There is always the option of removing the system completely. That will definitely resolve all Evap/Purge Valve issues with no downside to your Spyder.

 

[Magdave]

The purge system is designed to operate much more than needed to assure that no accumulation of vapors occurs. If you're getting raw fuel on a regular basis, something is definitely wrong.

There is always the option of removing the system completely. That will definitely resolve all Evap/Purge Valve issues with no downside to your Spyder.

I know Ron but that is what I am trying to avoid since I have a 5yr warranty Bluekinght's "T" mod would be my choice instead of a total cannisterectomy . But I am still having a hard time understanding why in my poll so many have never smelled or detected gas. Since it is heated gas it obviously will evaporate quickly put I can wet the whole tip of my finger on the floor after my last 2 rides. If the system was working properly that should not happen.:dontknow::dontknow:

 

[gypsy_100]

Thanks Scotty I AM trying to not be paranoid but the spots on my mat are adding up and the smell stronger. No design argument from me (especially on the 2013s). I run higher RPMs heck I hardly ever am below 5k and shift at 7-8k so it should be pulling for me. I am not sure (and I doubt) liquid gas is getting into the canister, My rides mostly have been started with less than 3/4 in the tank. I only fill when I am a good distance from home if needed. I am very careful on filling and always have been 1in below the hole minimum. But if you looked at my poll many say they have NEVER smelled gas like some of us do so there has to be a reason :dontknow:

The procedure in the manual is to disconnect the electrical connector for the purge valve and then hot-wire it and listen for it to open and close. I've done that (carefully so you don't short anything out -- if you have heavy fumes I'd be careful of the spark) and it makes a loud, audible click. That's no guarantee it's opening or closing 100% but at least that it's working. Then I believe there's a second procedure involving BUDS which checks if the computer is telling it to open at the right time. Even though mine checked out OK on hot-wiring and the dealer said OK on BUDS, in frustration I replaced the valve and canister. Didn't make any difference. I have a 2011 so the problem is not as bad as you describe but I'm not happy, either. For fun, I cut the old canister apart and it was perfect inside -- full of nice, dry activated charcoal. So I'm stymied right now, too.

 

[Magdave]

The procedure in the manual is to disconnect the electrical connector for the purge valve and then hot-wire it and listen for it to open and close. I've done that (carefully so you don't short anything out -- if you have heavy fumes I'd be careful of the spark) and it makes a loud, audible click. That's no guarantee it's opening or closing 100% but at least that it's working. Then I believe there's a second procedure involving BUDS which checks if the computer is telling it to open at the right time. Even though mine checked out OK on hot-wiring and the dealer said OK on BUDS, in frustration I replaced the valve and canister. Didn't make any difference. I have a 2011 so the problem is not as bad as you describe but I'm not happy, either. For fun, I cut the old canister apart and it was perfect inside -- full of nice, dry activated charcoal. So I'm stymied right now, too.

:yikes: Thanks for posting and good info as I am leaning toward getting a new canister at least. Maybe not...

 

[3 Wheel Addict]

I was just poking around the parts catalogs for the 14's and they have an additional part with the evap canister called an "air filter"? The canister has also been moved waaaay away from the engine heat to, back under the seat. Wonder what that filter is for?? :dontknow:

 

[Magdave]

I was just poking around the parts catalogs for the 14's and they have an additional part with the evap canister called an "air filter"? The canister has also been moved waaaay away from the engine heat to, back under the seat. Wonder what that filter is for?? :dontknow:

Hmmmm good question :thumbup: Where is it located in the system on the vent line, purge or overflow?

 

[SNOOPY]

I was just poking around the parts catalogs for the 14's and they have an additional part with the evap canister called an "air filter"? The canister has also been moved waaaay away from the engine heat to, back under the seat. Wonder what that filter is for?? :dontknow:

I like the note about the canister being moved, maybe the excessive heat on the canister was causing some of the overventing problems. Hmmm...






Wonder if they were secretly using Magdave as a guinea pig test subject and watching his posts as R&D....

 

[3 Wheel Addict]

Hmmmm good question :thumbup: Where is it located in the system on the vent line, purge or overflow?

Looks like to me it's inline between the tank and the canister but it hard to tell from a parts pic?

 

[Magdave]

I like the note about the canister being moved, maybe the excessive heat on the canister was causing some of the overventing problems. Hmmm...






Wonder if they were secretly using Magdave as a guinea pig test subject and watching his posts as R&D....

:yikes::roflblack: