PCV acting crazy...

[Kratos]

I installed the PCV, no base map, everything zero'd out, so should be still running the stock map, and the bike runs SUPER RICH. Sounds like crap. Spitting and sputtering every where. I had to pull -60 off the fuel at idle to get it to idle right. Something weird is going on. Why so rich, and why I have to pull that much fuel off the stock map. I must have done something wrong somewhere....???

Anyone experience this weird stuff?

 

[ARtraveler]

I am not the expert--but the computer don't like being told what to do.

Others have mentioned problems like this when installing these kind of accessories. It will take some tweeking--but once right, the system should make you happy.

Now: Waiting for the experts to chime in.

 

[Sny]

Did you install the o2 optimizer and did you also get the autotune and o2 sensor for that?

The o2 optimizer is going to be doing the work at idle (and all closed loop for that matter). So if it's not installed all kinds of strange things can happen.

The autotune can't do anything in closed loop. It will fight with the ECU endlessly. If you have an autotune installed leave it zero'd out from 0-20% throttle from 0 to 6000rpm like the pictures from the documentation from dynojet show for the Spyder.

Can you explain your setup more?

 

[Sny]

I am not the expert--but the computer don't like being told what to do.

Just for reference:

The way the pcv works on a Spyder (and most fuel injected engines) is to lie to the computer, not tell it what to do. The PCV intercepts the signals going into the ECU (air intake and o2) and lies to it with false values intended to get it to behave a certain way (like a politician!) The PCV then also intercepts the signals coming out of the ECU (fuel in the form of pulse width) and modifies this signal to provide the fuel that you've asked for in your maps rather than what the ECU is requesting.

For theorycrafters this level of control is amazing.

For the more practical, it's a tweaking nightmare. Adjust, ride, recalibrate your seat-o-pants meter, adjust, ride some more, borrow someone elses seat-o-pants meter, adjust, ride...

The addition of the Autotune makes this more of a math exercise with slightly less guessing and seat-o-pants accuracy requirements. But there's still a period of adjust, ride, adjust, ride.

There's some pretty solid advice on what to start with initially, and calling dynojet is a great idea if you get stuck, support from them is great and free.

But -60 anywhere on that map is a bad idea. Something's not hooked up right.

 

[Kratos]

Just for reference:

The way the pcv works on a Spyder (and most fuel injected engines) is to lie to the computer, not tell it what to do. The PCV intercepts the signals going into the ECU (air intake and o2) and lies to it with false values intended to get it to behave a certain way (like a politician!) The PCV then also intercepts the signals coming out of the ECU (fuel in the form of pulse width) and modifies this signal to provide the fuel that you've asked for in your maps rather than what the ECU is requesting.

For theorycrafters this level of control is amazing.

For the more practical, it's a tweaking nightmare. Adjust, ride, recalibrate your seat-o-pants meter, adjust, ride some more, borrow someone elses seat-o-pants meter, adjust, ride...

The addition of the Autotune makes this more of a math exercise with slightly less guessing and seat-o-pants accuracy requirements. But there's still a period of adjust, ride, adjust, ride.

There's some pretty solid advice on what to start with initially, and calling dynojet is a great idea if you get stuck, support from them is great and free.

But -60 anywhere on that map is a bad idea. Something's not hooked up right.

Something must not be hooked right. The o2 optimizer is on and the o2 sensor, autotune, and all parts of the kit are all hooked up. After I installed everything like the instructions said, I cranked up the bike, and instantly it was super rich. It's as if immediately the PCV was telling the computer to dump in a ton of fuel, and I hadn't even done anything to the map. The map was zero'd out (I checked), so there was no codes to alter the stock map the way it did. The autotune as of yet does not run (which is a second problem). But I knew the autotune couldn't help me anyway even if it did run, because idle is apart of the closed loop. But the o2 optimizer never adjusted idle back right (maybe the o2 optimizer only richens and can't lean it out???). I kept waiting and waiting for the optimizer to help with this crazy super rich idle, but it never adjusted. I got scared to continue to wait, because the exhaust smoke was black, and it was a matter of time before I fouled my spark plugs. So I had to stop waiting for the optimizer to fix idle. I then attempted to see how much fuel withdrawal it would take to fix idle (just for curiosity) and it was -60. :yikes: I knew then something was srewed up big time. I then took out to ride the bike in hopes that autotune and the optimizer would kick in while riding and slowly start to adjust. But when I got back, there were no trim adjustments which means autotune never came on. Took the plastic off, check all connections (good), then made sure autotune option was still on in the computer (good). So I'm dead stuck on why the autotune doesn't work.

I tried to go back through step by step what I could have possibly done wrong. All lights on all 3 parts were on, so I know that they had power. I did have a/f readings so I know the o2 sensor and autotune module was working to some degree. I could alter the fuel if I wanted (so I know pcv works). But I must have messed up somewhere in the injectors or something to make it dump all that fuel. I don't know.....my brain is going nuts right now, but it looks like I'm gonna have to send this product back. Because I can't control the closed loop and the optimizer is not controlling it either, and the autotune won't engage even while riding, and I can't figure out what's not hooked up right for it not to work. I'm at a dead end, and I don't know if anyone can help me, because unless someone had this problem specifically, it's gonna be hard to trouble shoot this one I think....

I wish there wasn't a closed loop system on this bike. It makes this very complicated if there is a problem like this, because I'm not allowed (technically) to try to fix it. Only told to wait on the optimzer to fix it, and it won't. If there was no closed loop, the only thing I would be worried about right now is the autotune not working. And once I got it to work, it would just fix all the crazy stuff happening in the closed loop sections. But waiting on the optimzer to help, is like hoping someone stops to help you on the side of the road....you feel powerless.

 

[Sny]

But waiting on the optimzer to help, is like hoping someone stops to help you on the side of the road....you feel powerless.

Yep, I don't think the optimizer works like that. I'm not really sure how it works to be honest. I keep meaning to call dynojet and ask.

First step: Simplify

The fact your autotune isn't active shouldn't matter, but try this. Disconnect it and turn it off in the config.

If that doesn't help, start looking at the injector wiring. You might have shorted something which would cause it to run wide open. Tho, I'd be surprised that it runs at all if that were the case.

Failing that, give dynojet a call in the morning. I bet they have "heard it all" by now.

 

[Kratos]

Yep, I don't think the optimizer works like that. I'm not really sure how it works to be honest. I keep meaning to call dynojet and ask.

First step: Simplify

The fact your autotune isn't active shouldn't matter, but try this. Disconnect it and turn it off in the config.

If that doesn't help, start looking at the injector wiring. You might have shorted something which would cause it to run wide open. Tho, I'd be surprised that it runs at all if that were the case.

Failing that, give dynojet a call in the morning. I bet they have "heard it all" by now.

Yep, that's what I'm hoping on...that something like this has happened before. My wife is on my neck because I just spent 600 bucks and she gets mad if I spend that kind of money and it doesn't work.

I hate it when something like this happens on Friday at 5:00, because you have to wait a looooong weekend for Monday morning to come so you can get help. 3 days of just looking at the bike helplessly and not riding......

 

[Sny]

Heh, I hear ya. I was quite frustrated with mine at the beginning as well. I'm sure you'll get it working.

 

[aka1004]

O2 plugin is a stand-alone unit. You can ryde just with that. In fact, that will be a good starting point of trouble shooting.
Disconnect everything except for o2 plugin and if no problem, download a base map and connect pcV and than the autotune. Eliminate one thing at a time.

 

[Firefly]

A few things.

1. The auto tune does not adjust anything while you're going down the road. It tracks what is going on and will create an adjusted 'trim' table being able to adjust each trim up to 20%. You must hook up to laptop, get the new trim data from the auto tune and then apply those trims to the map in he PCV. It's very simple--- takes like 3 mouse clicks to do.

2. The auto tune will only show you the AFR in real time.... You won't see any other numbers changing in real time. If you can see the AFR on your laptop changing in real time, then the AutoTune is installed and working.

My guess is you got some of the colored wires that you have to plug into the PCV wrong. Double check them and make sure they are all fully inserted.

Call PC and they can help you. I strongly recommend NOT messing with the tables manually until you give a map and a few AutoTune updates a chance. You really shouldn't need to manually adjust anything with this setup.

Mine is running better than ever.....pulls way harder than it ever has. Started with the map for a single 2 bros. pipe with green filter and let AutoTune do the rest.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Kratos]

The auto tune will only show you the AFR in real time.... You won't see any other numbers changing in real time. If you can see the AFR on your laptop changing in real time, then the AutoTune is installed and working.

My guess is you got some of the colored wires that you have to plug into the PCV wrong. Double check them and make sure they are all fully inserted.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The 6 color wires from the 02 sensor.....they do go into the autotune and not the pcv right?

 

[Firefly]

The 6 color wires from the 02 sensor.....they do go into the autotune and not the pcv right?

Correct......


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Farmboy]

A few things.

1. The auto tune does not adjust anything while you're going down the road. It tracks what is going on and will create an adjusted 'trim' table being able to adjust each trim up to 20%. You must hook up to laptop, get the new trim data from the auto tune and then apply those trims to the map in he PCV. It's very simple--- takes like 3 mouse clicks to do.

2. The auto tune will only show you the AFR in real time.... You won't see any other numbers changing in real time. If you can see the AFR on your laptop changing in real time, then the AutoTune is installed and working.

My guess is you got some of the colored wires that you have to plug into the PCV wrong. Double check them and make sure they are all fully inserted.

Call PC and they can help you. I strongly recommend NOT messing with the tables manually until you give a map and a few AutoTune updates a chance. You really shouldn't need to manually adjust anything with this setup.

Mine is running better than ever.....pulls way harder than it ever has. Started with the map for a single 2 bros. pipe with green filter and let AutoTune do the rest.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

:agree::agree::agree: To me it sounds like you may have taped into the wrong wire on your throttle posi. sensor. and or you need to recalibrate your minimum voltage on the throttle posi. table....or both.

 

[Kratos]

:agree::agree::agree: To me it sounds like you may have taped into the wrong wire on your throttle posi. sensor. and or you need to recalibrate your minimum voltage on the throttle posi. table....or both.

The instructions said the white/brown wire, so I tapped into that one. When the bike is idling, the computer reads the TPS at 2% throttle. Would that make a difference? I did calibrate the TPS before I cranked it though.

But if the map is completely zero'd out, then would that matter anyway??? Shouldn't you be running on stock settings??

 

[Sny]

Sounds like you need to go back to square one. Simplify.
Disconnect everything but the O2 Optimizer.
Check every wire for that and make sure they're good.
Start it up and see how it runs with no PCV connected.

Then check every wire for the power commander itself, make sure every tap is clean, every connector has a solid connection, no corrosion, no bent pins.
Power it up and make sure the software sees everything it should (no autotune at this point.)
Verify the throttle position is reading correctly. You may need to adjust the throttle itself, or adjust the TPS via BUDS (meaning a trip to the dealer). Do the throttle calibration in the pcv software.
Click get map and make sure it can read the map in the pcv.
Zero the fuel map.
Verify that the autotune option is disabled in software.
Start the bike and see how it idles. If it's bad/rich, just shut it down and keep looking for wiring issues or call Dynojet.
Move the throttle and watch on the software to make sure it's still reading.
In the software press control-E for Environment Options and turn on Table Cell Tracer and set it to 1 second.
Move the throttle and watch the tracer cell move around on the map. It should be targeting the cell on the map that would be used.
If this is all working and the bike is running ok, hook up the autotune and enable it and start working on your autotune map.

Remember that autotune doesn't tune on the fly. It "learns" what happened in a given situation and then calculates what needs to be done to provide the right fuel to reach the AFR in the map for that throttle% and engine rpm. It then records it in the autotune trim table for you to view later and if you agree (you should) you apply those trim values to your map.

Some people disconnect the autotune after they feel their map has been tweaked enough.

Keep at it, you'll find it.

 

[Kratos]

Sounds like you need to go back to square one. Simplify.
Disconnect everything but the O2 Optimizer.
Check every wire for that and make sure they're good.
Start it up and see how it runs with no PCV connected.

Then check every wire for the power commander itself, make sure every tap is clean, every connector has a solid connection, no corrosion, no bent pins.
Power it up and make sure the software sees everything it should (no autotune at this point.)
Verify the throttle position is reading correctly. You may need to adjust the throttle itself, or adjust the TPS via BUDS (meaning a trip to the dealer). Do the throttle calibration in the pcv software.
Click get map and make sure it can read the map in the pcv.
Zero the fuel map.
Verify that the autotune option is disabled in software.
Start the bike and see how it idles. If it's bad/rich, just shut it down and keep looking for wiring issues or call Dynojet.
Move the throttle and watch on the software to make sure it's still reading.
In the software press control-E for Environment Options and turn on Table Cell Tracer and set it to 1 second.
Move the throttle and watch the tracer cell move around on the map. It should be targeting the cell on the map that would be used.
If this is all working and the bike is running ok, hook up the autotune and enable it and start working on your autotune map.

Remember that autotune doesn't tune on the fly. It "learns" what happened in a given situation and then calculates what needs to be done to provide the right fuel to reach the AFR in the map for that throttle% and engine rpm. It then records it in the autotune trim table for you to view later and if you agree (you should) you apply those trim values to your map.

Some people disconnect the autotune after they feel their map has been tweaked enough.

Keep at it, you'll find it.

Ok, thanks. I'm gonna start over from square one. I'm actually hoping I screwed up somewhere....lol. Cause I really want this to work. ray:

 

[Firefly]

Sounds like you need to go back to square one. Simplify.
Disconnect everything but the O2 Optimizer.
Check every wire for that and make sure they're good.
Start it up and see how it runs with no PCV connected.

Then check every wire for the power commander itself, make sure every tap is clean, every connector has a solid connection, no corrosion, no bent pins.
Power it up and make sure the software sees everything it should (no autotune at this point.)
Verify the throttle position is reading correctly. You may need to adjust the throttle itself, or adjust the TPS via BUDS (meaning a trip to the dealer). Do the throttle calibration in the pcv software.
Click get map and make sure it can read the map in the pcv.
Zero the fuel map.
Verify that the autotune option is disabled in software.
Start the bike and see how it idles. If it's bad/rich, just shut it down and keep looking for wiring issues or call Dynojet.
Move the throttle and watch on the software to make sure it's still reading.
In the software press control-E for Environment Options and turn on Table Cell Tracer and set it to 1 second.
Move the throttle and watch the tracer cell move around on the map. It should be targeting the cell on the map that would be used.
If this is all working and the bike is running ok, hook up the autotune and enable it and start working on your autotune map.

Remember that autotune doesn't tune on the fly. It "learns" what happened in a given situation and then calculates what needs to be done to provide the right fuel to reach the AFR in the map for that throttle% and engine rpm. It then records it in the autotune trim table for you to view later and if you agree (you should) you apply those trim values to your map.

Some people disconnect the autotune after they feel their map has been tweaked enough.

Keep at it, you'll find it.

:agree:

But I would give the folks at PC a call first.... I bet they can tell you what the problem is right away......

Download these maps:

http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/25-004/maps/m25-004-All.exe

Just pick which one is close to your setup... then use autotune to get things dialed in better.....:thumbup:

 

[Kratos]

:agree:

But I would give the folks at PC a call first.... I bet they can tell you what the problem is right away.....
.

I have them on the phone now (on hold). There are 17 callers ahead of me...:yikes:....I'll just wait patiently till they answer....hope I don't lose my connection by the time my turn is up. LOL :yikes:

 

[Kratos]

I called PC and they had no clue why it was doing that. So it looks like I have a freek incident that never happens, and I'm on my own.....:sour:


I was trying to look at the wires today and see what I could find. I took pics.

Only thing I noticed was these vent holes coming from the intake unconnected to anything...

 

[Firefly]

I'm not getting the angle of this photo.. but the green device marked BOSCH.... looks out of place. Did you not replace it after removing it to get to the injectors? It has 1 screw that mounts it in place.. and a hose that hooks up to it.

I can't recall what it is.... some pressure switch I think......

Something got unhooked and not hooked back up... shouldn't have open hoses like in your photo......