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M2 or Elka- Worth the Money?
- Thread starter CapnPete
- Start date
PMK
Active member
I wish Marcus could explain more of the non specific details regarding his shocks. We run Fox, although I am not a huge Fox fan. In the past I spoke with Elka, and I was less than i pressed by their stuff.
I may not be building shocks for Spyders, but have been tuning and rebuilding high performance motorcycle suspension since the 1970s. There are simply certain things I look for as the price goes up.
As I mentioned, we run Fox on the front and were purchased as the BRP accessory units. I wanted Ohlins, but that was a no go on account of availability. At the price point I paid, retail was just over $500, and I paid $375 for the pair of fronts, I accept fewer bells and whistles.
Getting back to my mention of details. I have checked out the website for M2 shocks. After leaving, I remained curious as to what coatings are applied to the shock bodies to prevent wear and minimize external corrosion? Are the shock shafts typical chromed steel, or with the added cost are they Titanium Nitride or similar or are the DLC. Those to me are non proprietary details that help explain the cost. The internals, meaning piston design, shim arrangements and more obviously are how he has come up with his tuning setup. Not even asking about that. Simply info to honestly answer if people ask about them.
I hope he does well with the Spyder market. Kind of surprising, the Chinese have not found this niche market yet and offered a low cost low quality Spyder shock.
I think it would take over 20 pages of information to describe "what we do differently". I have mostly learned to not have technical discussions on the internet or phone as it is no-win. I can tell you that I don't hire "shock guys" for assembly as they will not follow directions in most cases and our designs are made to be strictly followed.
I can give a real example of what I am talking about that most will be able to digest. In 2015 when I was at JRi, Geoff May asked for shocks for the Daytona 200. I spent 2 days building two shocks for him. On paper the only thing I did was drill some bleed in the pistons so that low speed movement would work exactly the way it should. I then blueprinted the entire shock and made some "subtle changes" to the internal mechanisms that provide "back flow". On the dyno, the shock looked nearly identical to our "over the counter product", but it wasn't even close. Geoff was the fast man for the Daytona 200 from the moment the bike took its first laps until the last pit stop in the race where a fueling mis-hap cost him two spots and he finished 3rd. Now a lot of other people (from the engine builder to the brake supplier) could easily have as much credit, but the rear tire wear was above average and the ability to drive onto the banking consistently without destroying the rear tire is paramount...and so it is safe to say, "I did my job".
The main point of that story is that I built a shock that most wouldn't believe wasn't "significantly different" from any other shock that we sold over the counter, but it was...tremendously different. It is the subtle things that are more important (in many cases) than the glaring technology. That is what we do here...we follow a process that ensures a quality product each and ever time. We dyno the hell out of every shock. This really helps us so much. As of now, every shock we have built for spyders...well over 50% of them get pulled back onto the line to be properly built as I see things I don't like, but "would pass at any other shop". I could get into technology, dyno curves, bleed, etc., but that is academic when you can't replicate what you are supposed to be doing in the first place. Being driven to be the best flows through the company and I tell everyone do you work in such a way that if someone took the entire shock apart, they would be impressed.
At the end, we put up, "Best Spyder Shocks in the world"...I wouldn't want to sell anything that wasn't THE BEST. We had our customers/riders as the fastest Streetbikes in the world for Turbo, 1000cc, and Nitrous less than two and half years from opening...I am really proud that we got that done, now we are venturing into the Spyder and Harley Markets. I am so stoked about the Spyder, because at 52 years old...after riding a Spyder with our suspension, I really loved the way it rode...I MEAN LOVED IT! and after racing for nearly 20 years myself, it is hard for me to get excited, but the comfort and control of what I felt was amazing.
I didn't figure any of this out on my own. From Max at Traxxion to Jeff Ryan at JRi, those guys (and many in between) shared things with me that helped me tremendously. I do my best...to do my best.
I can give a real example of what I am talking about that most will be able to digest. In 2015 when I was at JRi, Geoff May asked for shocks for the Daytona 200. I spent 2 days building two shocks for him. On paper the only thing I did was drill some bleed in the pistons so that low speed movement would work exactly the way it should. I then blueprinted the entire shock and made some "subtle changes" to the internal mechanisms that provide "back flow". On the dyno, the shock looked nearly identical to our "over the counter product", but it wasn't even close. Geoff was the fast man for the Daytona 200 from the moment the bike took its first laps until the last pit stop in the race where a fueling mis-hap cost him two spots and he finished 3rd. Now a lot of other people (from the engine builder to the brake supplier) could easily have as much credit, but the rear tire wear was above average and the ability to drive onto the banking consistently without destroying the rear tire is paramount...and so it is safe to say, "I did my job".
The main point of that story is that I built a shock that most wouldn't believe wasn't "significantly different" from any other shock that we sold over the counter, but it was...tremendously different. It is the subtle things that are more important (in many cases) than the glaring technology. That is what we do here...we follow a process that ensures a quality product each and ever time. We dyno the hell out of every shock. This really helps us so much. As of now, every shock we have built for spyders...well over 50% of them get pulled back onto the line to be properly built as I see things I don't like, but "would pass at any other shop". I could get into technology, dyno curves, bleed, etc., but that is academic when you can't replicate what you are supposed to be doing in the first place. Being driven to be the best flows through the company and I tell everyone do you work in such a way that if someone took the entire shock apart, they would be impressed.
At the end, we put up, "Best Spyder Shocks in the world"...I wouldn't want to sell anything that wasn't THE BEST. We had our customers/riders as the fastest Streetbikes in the world for Turbo, 1000cc, and Nitrous less than two and half years from opening...I am really proud that we got that done, now we are venturing into the Spyder and Harley Markets. I am so stoked about the Spyder, because at 52 years old...after riding a Spyder with our suspension, I really loved the way it rode...I MEAN LOVED IT! and after racing for nearly 20 years myself, it is hard for me to get excited, but the comfort and control of what I felt was amazing.
I didn't figure any of this out on my own. From Max at Traxxion to Jeff Ryan at JRi, those guys (and many in between) shared things with me that helped me tremendously. I do my best...to do my best.
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PMK
Active member
Marcus all the best with your efforts. Similar to Darren at PUSH and Adam at Kreft, your lack of simple info rings hollow and in the same way, and for similar reasons that I do not recommend Kreft or PUSH, The same holds true for M2 products.
I never asked for proprietary info, simple generic details that set your construction apart, not some multi tiered QC system. As for 20 pages explaining if you hard coat bodies or use chrome shafts or treated pistons seems a bit far fetched, but whatever.
Again, all the best with it.
I never asked for proprietary info, simple generic details that set your construction apart, not some multi tiered QC system. As for 20 pages explaining if you hard coat bodies or use chrome shafts or treated pistons seems a bit far fetched, but whatever.
Again, all the best with it.
I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I spent 30 pages on a article I wrote just on "how a shock works" https://www.m2shocks.com/how-a-shock-works I don't think you can fairly have a conversation on a forum and put the "full context" into a conversation.
FWIW There are three rules I use:
1. The shock cannot break, leak, or otherwise "fail". In the first thousand shocks we sold, ONLY ONE was delivered with an operational failure. Nothing made me more mad than working for a company that delivered shocks that had "oil weeping" on a consistent basis only for the engineer/designer to say, "Yeah, that is normal...see we use this "special coating" on the shaft and it promotes less stiction"...that is pure bull hockey.
2. The assembly process must pro actively address long term operation reliability. Everything from the lubricants and assembly oils we use are designed so that the shock works as long as it can. We use competitors assembly lubricants, because they work! It is funny, because the manufacturer of our assembly lube...the technicians that put together their shocks don't like it "because it is not slick enough" and won't use it. We have found it is an excellent long term lubricant. To be more specific, many guys like the Silkolene RG-2 grease for assembly as it breaks down in the oil easily so you don't have "clumps of grease" inside the shock. We only use that grease on a few areas because the grease will break down too easily when introduced to oil. The same can be said for many of the popular Moly Grease assembly lubricants.
3. The product must perform.
On item 2, I could go on for hours about assembly lubes and the discussion would be boring and so anal-retentive...no one would care, but again, it is (IMO) those details that are the most important.
So if you think "I am on a high horse". I am not. I love talking shop, but a conversation on a Forum cannot catch the full breadth or context of a complete conversation.
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PMK
Active member
I fully get all that. Yes there are assembly lubes and fluids I use based on both performance and long term results. Pretty certain the whole how the damper works is a non issue for me. Honestly, each time I mentioned it, not looking for proprietary or specific details.
Simply, your shock bodies, are the aluminum or steel, and what coatings if any are utilized, whether for looks / appearance, reduced frictions or corrosion resistance?
As for the shock shafts, are they typical chrome plated shafts, titanium nitrided, or Diamond Like Carbon?
At $2000 retail per set of three, either you have an incredible performance gain over your competition, or additional features raise the cost. Overall cost of bodies, shafts, pistons, sealheads etc to be machined is similar regardless of the manufacturer, same with springs, fluids, seals and bladders. Please explain the simple differences if any. This is not an internet debate or trial by fire.
If your stuff is good, let me share why with others if they ask.
I use standard chrome shafts. I use higher drag main bearing(s)/seal to prevent leaking. Hard anodized aluminum tube/caps/etc.. They are 1875.00 retail, which is actually inexpensive based on the quality. I am the only manufacturer in the world I know of that installs torrington bearings top and bottom on all shocks as standard equipment...nevermind 35mm shocks (which I have never seen anyone do).
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JS3535
New member
I don’t see why the long debate. This reminds me of the ECU flash thread. Basically it boils down to this. The Elka shocks are like the Monster Flash & the M2 shocks are like the DynoJet. The Monster (Elka) is tried & true, great performance & well reviewed. The DynoJet (M2) just came to the spyder party. Even though they claim they are as good or better than the competitor, there hasn’t been enough time, sales or reviews to know if it stands true. In a few years the norm may be DynoJet & M2 but for now I would personally rather stick with the icon staple.
PMK
Active member
These are not too shabby looking either...
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/...68d07ef8e4c~mv2_d_3024_4032_s_4_2.jpg?retry=1
PMK
Active member
He’s an ELKA Fanboy...
On can ams the front suspension is very narrow--the more the control equipment is, the better it can function. On my 2012 rtltd I havie installed sway bards & links-M2 shocks & V'Q5 front & Kumo rear tires. These installations will make the narrow front act just like my formula cars of years ago--these changes are necessary for the fine tuning of CanAms---In my age this is my fun in life at 87--Wallburl in Wichita Kansas-a good place to live!!!
Just got my M2’s last week. Dealer install. Their comment was that these are “Awesome” shocks. I talked with Marcus prior to the install. He left his number with the shop so they could call him if any questions arouse. Dealer said the install was pretty straight forward. Love the ride and handling. It feels like the bike is on rails! Talked with Marcus after the install and discussed how I can fine tune them to my tastes. So far I’m loving the ride.Can’t say enough about the quality of the product and the support provided to me.
Bob,
Thank you for the nice words...Seeing this makes everything I do VERY WORTHWHILE!
Enjoy...I will have a replacement tool out for you to adjust with.amcvay1979
New member
For the rear shocks w/air what do the Elka's or M2 do for this? Do you just pull the fuse on the compressor so it doesn't run all the time and kill the motor or is there an air input in the rear shocks?
trikermutha
New member
Remove shock install new. Leave compressor alone and air bag
Rear shocks have no air. Air bag assist
Rear shocks have no air. Air bag assist
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