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News Gets Worse for Harley
- Thread starter RinconRyder
- Start date
Why are the employees blaming the company?
oldguyinTX
New member
And Carrier did the same thing. These companies and the rich people who control them take the money and run, and they run overseas where they can't be touched by U.S. law. So how exactly did that tax cut help laid off working class men and women at HD & Carrier, and I wonder how is it going to benefit me, plain old Joe Schmoe? The only "stock" I own is medical bills, and they sure as heck aren't paying me any dividends.
oldguyinTX
New member
Gee Pete, who do you think made the decision to close plants and move jobs overseas? The Tooth Fairy? Bugs Bunny? Me, I'm kinda thinking it was the Board of Directors, who answer to the shareholders, who want more money in their pockets. Simple, basic economics. Even I can see the logic from their point of view, and I ain't the brightest bulb on the string. The days when you got out of high school or college and went to work for a company that actually provided job security are a thing of the distant past. Companies don't give a rat's ass about workers, it's all about the money, and the more they get, the happier they are.
But they are just doing what capitalism and free markets demand of them, right? Maybe it's unfettered capitalism (the system) they should be upset with.
This wouldn't have happened under socialism. Not that I am promoting socialism, but rather pointing out that capitalism is not the worker's friend.
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oldguyinTX
New member
Ain't bit'in on that hook.
Understood. However I wasn't trolling. Just pointing out basic economic fact.
Capitalism favors the capitalist, not the worker.
ThreeWheels
Active member
Do you think $40,000 motorcycles might have something to do with it ?
I mean, how many young people have that kind of cash for a toy.
We all got into motorcycling when you could get out on the road for a few hundred dollars.
If BRP manages to come out with that sub 10K starter Spyder, that will be a big help.
As it is, I don't think I'll ever buy a new Spyder again. Way too much money.
I mean, how many young people have that kind of cash for a toy.
We all got into motorcycling when you could get out on the road for a few hundred dollars.
If BRP manages to come out with that sub 10K starter Spyder, that will be a big help.
As it is, I don't think I'll ever buy a new Spyder again. Way too much money.
That's how the free market works. nojoke
ThreeWheels
Active member
It's supposed to be a discussion. There's been no arguing yet.
JkRbbt
New member
You can understand the economics of the move, but you can also understand why the employees are a little raw. The company gets a windfall from the new tax laws. They buy back 15 million shares, bump the dividend a 1/2 cent, and then.... wait for it.... close a plant here, open one overseas and lay off workers. Sure, the economics are there for the company. Not so much for workers.
RinconRyder
New member
Harley seems to be in an identical spot to other businesses who ran big and large during the Boomer years but now that society has changed and the current social class has other desires and options they are finding their products are not in great demand. Not only do the Millennials not want the big cruisers that Harley puts most of its manufacturing and marketing in but they don't have the financial resources to pay the big dollars either. Harley seems to be hoping that some foreign markets will pick up the slack but I doubt those numbers are there either. Most of those markets have pretty significant import taxes and license fees etc., so big displacement bikes are not easy to own financially.
The other very important thing to note is that here in the USA motorcycles have always been a luxury item. That is not true overseas. People buy bikes for basic transportation - cheaper and much easier on taxes and gas. Harley's don't fit that bill either.
There might still be a market for some of Harley's products. I'm thinking The Gap or perhaps Old Navy might take in the HD line of orange and black boutique itemshttps://www.google.com/search?clien...2GDQIHSznAGUQBQgmKAA&biw=1280&bih=585&dpr=1.5 for the lady in your life.
The other very important thing to note is that here in the USA motorcycles have always been a luxury item. That is not true overseas. People buy bikes for basic transportation - cheaper and much easier on taxes and gas. Harley's don't fit that bill either.
There might still be a market for some of Harley's products. I'm thinking The Gap or perhaps Old Navy might take in the HD line of orange and black boutique itemshttps://www.google.com/search?clien...2GDQIHSznAGUQBQgmKAA&biw=1280&bih=585&dpr=1.5 for the lady in your life.
You are absolutely correct. That's how capitalists have always behaved. Nothing new there. nojoke
Worker benefits came about as a result of two things. Companies competing for skilled trade workers. And trade unions. As the demand for those skills decreased and unions lost their bargaining power and lost their political influence, the need for companies to provide benefits and for government to provide worker protections decreased. It has very little to do with individual company management or owners.
Which is why H-D needs to manufacture in those markets, to avoid import fees. Those markets also have very little in the way of worker protections and so the burdened cost of labor is far lower.
:agree: I'm just pointing out that H-D management and owners aren't to blame for this decision.
The great American middle class we all remember wistfully was a product of a growing, regulated industry. Now it is shrinking, becoming a victim of free markets and unfettered capitalism. Moreover, the social safety net designed to protect those on the losing end of the economy due to no fault of their own, is being methodically dismantled.
Yes, the workers are getting a raw deal. But it's not the fault of H-D managers and owners.
BTW, I am no fan of unaccountable corporations, but I do understand they are an inevitable reality given our system of government. And, that's all I'm going to say about the "guv'mint" because I don't want this to devolve into a political argument.
I'd like to stay with facts, if possible.
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ARtraveler
R.I.P. Dwayne
:agree: x 2. My last two RT's were over $28K. I am NOT crossing the $30K line and thinking of $40K--just blows my mind.
For less than $30K, I can by some real nice "big iron" on two. Are you listening BRP. :bowdown::bowdown:
And there are answers on every side. Let's keep the politics out of it. Companies do, what they are going to do. The bottom line and the "shareholders" reactions have a lot to do with it. There is NO company loyalty to employees any more. That died in the 60's. I have done one 29 year career, one 18 year career, and two 10 year careers. These were overlapping and NOT consecutive. The jobs were not bad, but in ALL, I have been EXPENDIBLE. Eventually, I did what I had to do--MOVE ON when the time became appropriate. :yes:
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It didn't. It was never intended to.
The 2nd hand HD market is flooded.....
Too many 30 yr. olds are still living at home with mom and dad, and they don't have any credit and can't afford a HD or a BRP. If the millennials have any scratch at all they're investing in themselves and not in toys. The boomers are on fixed incomes and fading away fast. This was all predicted by demographics back in the 80's, however few paid any attention. Any producer now coming out with a small cycle at a small price may survive the industry's looming collapse. Something like a small bike that can be plugged in overnight and then will give you 50 miles the next day. Kind'a reminiscent of, "you meet the nicest people on a Honda."
Too many 30 yr. olds are still living at home with mom and dad, and they don't have any credit and can't afford a HD or a BRP. If the millennials have any scratch at all they're investing in themselves and not in toys. The boomers are on fixed incomes and fading away fast. This was all predicted by demographics back in the 80's, however few paid any attention. Any producer now coming out with a small cycle at a small price may survive the industry's looming collapse. Something like a small bike that can be plugged in overnight and then will give you 50 miles the next day. Kind'a reminiscent of, "you meet the nicest people on a Honda."
Good points all here.
I think part of what makes the H-D hard to swallow is there are few companies that are viewed as so “American” to the core as they are and few products with such loyalty. This just feels worse and I’ve never even ridden or owned one.
The millennial problem isn’t just monetary or a flooded market it’s also, and this comment is Calif. biased so I’d be curious as to what parents/grandparents across the rest of the US see, but kids just don’t get outside in the same way as we did 50+ years ago due to electronics delivering life to you now so getting out to seek adventure just doesn’t seem to exist in the same way.
Just rambling here but but the next generation is just doing something else.
I think part of what makes the H-D hard to swallow is there are few companies that are viewed as so “American” to the core as they are and few products with such loyalty. This just feels worse and I’ve never even ridden or owned one.
The millennial problem isn’t just monetary or a flooded market it’s also, and this comment is Calif. biased so I’d be curious as to what parents/grandparents across the rest of the US see, but kids just don’t get outside in the same way as we did 50+ years ago due to electronics delivering life to you now so getting out to seek adventure just doesn’t seem to exist in the same way.
Just rambling here but but the next generation is just doing something else.
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