Flag and National Anthem protests

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I decided to start a new thread rather than leave this in the NFL thread.

The question behind all this controversy about standing for the national anthem, and for which there is no one clear cut answer, is, "What the does the Flag represent?" Is it only the good, or does it also represent some of the bad in our country?

Here's a list of some of my ideas of what the flag represents to different people.

The positives:
Freedom from a dictatorial government.
Freedom to worship as we want.
Freedom to speak as we want.
Opportunity to climb as high in the economic world as we are able.
Freedom to marry whomever we want (in the traditional sense).
Freedom to form a long term loving relationship with whomever we want.
You can add many other items to this list.

The negatives:
Corporate moguls free to pay however little they can get away with even if it's so little a family cannot live on it.
Insurance companies free to discriminate in how they provide insurance.
Police forces who are often unrestrained in enforcing peace and safety.
A military that often destroys indiscriminately in an effort to subdue a real or perceived enemy.
Banks that are free to charge onerous interest rates and fees upon selected customers.
Food industry leaders who are free to inject all sorts of chemicals into our food products.
A government run by politicians bought and paid for by the super rich.
And on and on.

What I am wanting to get across is that the flag represents many different things to many different people. More than likely most of us focus on those aspects of American life that we agree with or enjoy, as being what the flag represents. Aspects of American life that others see as oppressive are seen by them as being represented by the flag. There are many ways to protest, but some believe the most effective way to make their displeasure clear to Americans as whole, and to our Government specifically, is to show disrespect to the flag. One of most intense times of protesting our Government's actions was during the Viet Nam War. As you all know, much of that protest was in the form of burning the American Flag. Subsequently the US Supreme Court upheld the citizens right to burn the flag as a legitimate expression of free speech. Many, many, Americans vehemently decried that action, just like now with the NFL situation.

If you see the flag in terms of being a symbol of our freedom from tyranny and freedom to live as we want, you will naturally see the protests as attacking those values. If you see the flag as representing the wanton forceful suppression of a minority, and you understand that viewpoint, then the protests are justified.

As with all things in life, THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS! Both sides are right, both sides are wrong.

Peace, and may God Bless America, warts and all! :thumbup:

 

[cptjam]

Patriot

If you don't love and respect this country, I will help you pack! Go somewhere else that offers the freedom, security, consideration and benefits that the US does! Yes, we cherish freedom of speech. We have that right. Remember, freedom was paid for with the blood of patriots! To dishonor those brave men and women who laid down their lives to protect America by some entertainer or athlete who has never contributed to our nation is crazy! If the protest is police brutality, find a venue that targets that. Disrespect my country, earn my scorn. You play a game. Play that game. Meanwhile, you play that game in the United States of America. So, the society that allows you to play that game for our entertainment expects you to respect that. Pretty simple. When an entire stadium boo's when the players disrespect the country, get a clue. Our nation is at war. There are forces of evil that would love to destroy our country. Now is not a great time to ignore that fact. Players, wake up!

 

[MRH]

Personally, I stand for the anthem.

The reason I stand is because I live in country that protects our right to free speech, no matter if I disagree with that speech or not.

I've noticed that those on both sides of the political spectrum people complain that they are bothered or offended by the peaceful expression of ideas they disagree with, be it choosing not to stand for an anthem, or a university protest against a conservative speaker.

We all disagree and agree with different aspects of our governmental policies, and the beauty of this country is that we have the freedom to work within our laws to create change. Our country was founded, in part, on that ideal. When the protests hurt others or become violent, then the conversation truly changes.

Until that point, I think the fact that an action as simple as choosing not to stand can provoke conversation and debate is a positive aspect of our democracy. This country is both great and deeply flawed, and has been throughout our history. At the same time Americans were giving up their lives on the shores of Europe in WWII, in many areas of our own country we were persecuting those at home that happened to have skin indicating that their ancestors were born closer to the equator than those that make up the majority of our country. It's complicated, and a discussion always worth having, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

Before we get upset for a political statement, perhaps it is best to understand it and to consider and debate the relative merits of the reasons behind that statement.

 

[vided]

As is the saying

 

[PrairieSpyder]

If you don't love and respect this country, I will help you pack! Go somewhere else that offers the freedom, security, consideration and benefits that the US does! Yes, we cherish freedom of speech. We have that right. Remember, freedom was paid for with the blood of patriots! To dishonor those brave men and women who laid down their lives to protect America by some entertainer or athlete who has never contributed to our nation is crazy! If the protest is police brutality, find a venue that targets that. Disrespect my country, earn my scorn. You play a game. Play that game. Meanwhile, you play that game in the United States of America. So, the society that allows you to play that game for our entertainment expects you to respect that. Pretty simple. When an entire stadium boo's when the players disrespect the country, get a clue. Our nation is at war. There are forces of evil that would love to destroy our country. Now is not a great time to ignore that fact. Players, wake up!

:agree:

And it's not just disrespectful to those who have and/or are willing to fight for us in war. It offends us all.

I was in Europe at a dinner with people from several European countries. Many of them noted how Americans honor the flag, and how unique that is compared to other countries. The British flag is the standard of the monarch, and anti-monarchists don't revere it. Most European countries are fairly homogeneous (at least, at that time) and their flag was almost superfluous as a representation. But, as an Austrian gal pointed out, the USA is composed of people of many races and ethnicities, and the nation includes a vast geography with regional identities; the flag represents all that Americans have in common and the identity they share - no matter what.

Not honoring the flag and anthem is dishonoring all of us. Not the government, but all the people who are Americans.

 

[PrairieSpyder]

. . . choosing not to stand can provoke conversation and debate is a positive aspect of our democracy . . .

We seem to do nothing but converse and debate! :gaah: The flag and the anthem is the time to put it aside for two minutes and remember what we have in common.

As is the saying
View attachment 154274

:agree:

 

[BoilerAnimal]

As is the saying
View attachment 154274

Right up there with "My country, right or wrong!"

 

[WilderThomas]

Flag and Anthem Protests

I decided to start a new thread rather than leave this in the NFL thread.

The question behind all this controversy about standing for the national anthem, and for which there is no one clear cut answer, is, "What the does the Flag represent?" Is it only the good, or does it also represent some of the bad in our country?

Here's a list of some of my ideas of what the flag represents to different people.

The positives:
Freedom from a dictatorial government.
Freedom to worship as we want.
Freedom to speak as we want.
Opportunity to climb as high in the economic world as we are able.
Freedom to marry whomever we want (in the traditional sense).
Freedom to form a long term loving relationship with whomever we want.
You can add many other items to this list.

The negatives:
Corporate moguls free to pay however little they can get away with even if it's so little a family cannot live on it.
Insurance companies free to discriminate in how they provide insurance.
Police forces who are often unrestrained in enforcing peace and safety.
A military that often destroys indiscriminately in an effort to subdue a real or perceived enemy.
Banks that are free to charge onerous interest rates and fees upon selected customers.
Food industry leaders who are free to inject all sorts of chemicals into our food products.
A government run by politicians bought and paid for by the super rich.
And on and on.

What I am wanting to get across is that the flag represents many different things to many different people. More than likely most of us focus on those aspects of American life that we agree with or enjoy, as being what the flag represents. Aspects of American life that others see as oppressive are seen by them as being represented by the flag. There are many ways to protest, but some believe the most effective way to make their displeasure clear to Americans as whole, and to our Government specifically, is to show disrespect to the flag. One of most intense times of protesting our Government's actions was during the Viet Nam War. As you all know, much of that protest was in the form of burning the American Flag. Subsequently the US Supreme Court upheld the citizens right to burn the flag as a legitimate expression of free speech. Many, many, Americans vehemently decried that action, just like now with the NFL situation.

If you see the flag in terms of being a symbol of our freedom from tyranny and freedom to live as we want, you will naturally see the protests as attacking those values. If you see the flag as representing the wanton forceful suppression of a minority, and you understand that viewpoint, then the protests are justified.

As with all things in life, THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS! Both sides are right, both sides are wrong.

Peace, and may God Bless America, warts and all! :thumbup:

As one who has served in one of the armed forces for 20 years, I care extremely little for the disrespectful stand, or the opinions that some overpaid athlete or entertainer might take. They don't represent ME. If they want to publicly protest, let them do so, off the playing field, court, stage, or screen. Those people who pay to see these people perform, are paying to see an athlete or performer do what they do best. Not put on a demonstration of public protest.

 

[asp125]

But do you put down your beer and nachos and stand at attention when they play it on TV at home?

 

[classicvw]

We are free to behave pretty much as we want to, as long as we're not breaking any laws or infringing on another's civil rights, and that includes being an asshat.

The same country that allows them to protest, also allows me to call them out for doing so in that manner, and allows me to withhold my hard earned money and not spend it on any NFL game, nor on any advertiser on the TV broadcasts.

 

[ofdave]

I have never heard or seen that the flag represents a negative to someone who believes in the country.
Yes, we have a past which includes events we should not be proud of-but events we have learned from.

The "negatives" listed by the OP seem more to be his personal issues with our society.
I find connecting them to what our flag represents to be offensive and disgusting.
On this issue I cannot see both sides being right.
You love this country warts and all. You work to repair what might be broken.
You do not desecrate the flag in the process of making your position known.
I have no respect for those who perform their theatrics at the expense of honoring the flag.

Were the kneelers sincere about what they purport to believe in, they would be active in making the changes they say are needed rather than merely posing for the media.

A final comment, this is a forum about Spyders.
Is this type of topic really good for all of us?
After reading some posts in this thread and others, I find I no longer want to hear what some members have to say about anything.

 

[MRH]

We are free to behave pretty much as we want to, as long as we're not breaking any laws or infringing on another's civil rights, and that includes being an asshat.

The same country that allows them to protest, also allows me to call them out for doing so in that manner, and allows me to withhold my hard earned money and not spend it on any NFL game, nor on any advertiser on the TV broadcasts.

It does.

And then it gets really complex. To penalize that player, when others act with you, there is a lot of collateral damage, ranging from the guy who shares your views and simply runs the hot dog concession at the stadium (and is in the middle of a ten year lease) to the company your daughter works for who's employer's ad agency included the big game in their advertising buy because they wanted to connect with people just like you.

Perhaps it's time that both sides of the political isle tried to stop their knee-jerk reactions to non-violent statements and try to understand what sits beneath their actions.

What these players want to call attention to by not standing for a symbol, may be quite different than the values and meaning that others infuse the same symbol with. It is always complicated. Feelings of marginalization and oppression tend to push people to extremes, and our political system now seems to be dominated by those extremes within both parties.

When we reduce our opinions to slogans and ultimatums, we tend to check our brains as the proverbial door.

 

[wyliec]

A final comment, this is a forum about Spyders.
Is this type of topic really good for all of us?
After reading some posts in this thread and others, I find I no longer want to hear what some members have to say about anything.

This is the Off Topic Board. There are other forums in spyderlovers to talk about spyders. I took a couple of weeks off because I felt like you about no longer wanting to hear what some have to say. But, here I am again, and believe it or not, no one is on my ignore list.

 

[MRH]

This is the Off Topic Board. There are other forums in spyderlovers to talk about spyders. I took a couple of weeks off because I felt like you about no longer wanting to hear what some have to say. But, here I am again, and believe it or not, no one is on my ignore list.

It's often where we don't want to hear what others have to say that we have the most to learn. Even balanced news is difficult to find - even the effort of finding balance has been given up in the quest for ratings. Even Facebook will help us to tune out the ideas of those who disagree with us, and our political discussion has been reduced to memes. Schools no longer teach critical thinking, and our political parties are more interested in undermining each other than serving their constituent's needs.

These players are not desecrating the flag; it remains undamaged simply because they chose not to stand for it. They have not turned their backs on it. They are simply provoking a discussion that they believe needs to take place. A kneel is also a sign of respect, but by choosing a different action they have successfully called attention to where they believe respect is lacking. There is no hate within their speech, but there is distress.

We must ask ourselves why the protest is so painful, and in that answer I think we can better understand where these players are coming from. The pain that we feel at their failure to stand, is the pain that they feel that has prompted them not to stand.

 

[UtahPete]

We seem to do nothing but converse and debate! The flag and the anthem is the time to put it aside for two minutes and remember what we have in common.

With all due respect, I think the protests are about what we don't have in common, but should. "One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" is not something all 300 million Americans agree on.

Just as an example; I don't think Puerto Ricans believe they are part of one undivided nation these days. Non-theists don't believe we are subservient to 'god'. The people of Ferguson and other places wracked by race riots don't believe there is liberty and justice for all.

In a country as large and diverse and dynamic as ours, there are going to be winners and losers, insiders and outsiders, inclusive and exclusive groups, etc. Protests are a way for those who feel disenfranchised in some way to let their feelings be known; they're not acts of anarchy or disrespect for their country.

That's what I believe anyway.

 

[UtahPete]

And it's not just disrespectful to those who have and/or are willing to fight for us in war. It offends us all. Not honoring the flag and anthem is dishonoring all of us. Not the government, but all the people who are Americans.

Sorry, but it doesn't offend or disrespect me. What offends and disrespects me as an American veteran is the idea that if I don't comport to the standards of conduct and beliefs that others hold sacred then I am unpatriotic and should just leave the country.

It offends my sensibilities that there are so many in this country who seem not to understand what 'freedom' under the constitution really means and that it is the safe exercise of those freedoms by each individual that make us great, not slavish devotion to symbols or dogma.

 

[Firefly]

What part of "Zero Tolerance- NO Political Post." is confusing?

This isn't the place to discuss this kind of thing and no good ever comes from it....

 

[Zip]

I wanted to respond to one aspect of the OP statement.

First off let me say I always stand for the flag and the National Anthem.

Now as far as the NFL or any other professional sports team. You are a paid employee doing a job. Where does that money come from ticket sales and sponsors. So that money comes from your fans. The stadiums provided for you to do your job in are paid for by local and federal government and sponsors. Again from your fans either by purchasing from those sponsors or from tax dollars. And you are using the media to convey your message also paid for by your fans. We do not care what your political view is we want to watch you do your job. and if you are going to continue to try and force us to watch this childish behavior then we will no longer watch your games, buy your merchandise, buy from sponsors who continue to support you , and petition our governments to stop spending our tax money to support you.

 

[classicvw]

It does.

And then it gets really complex. To penalize that player, when others act with you, there is a lot of collateral damage, ranging from the guy who shares your views and simply runs the hot dog concession at the stadium (and is in the middle of a ten year lease) to the company your daughter works for who's employer's ad agency included the big game in their advertising buy because they wanted to connect with people just like you.

Not really too complex. I had a second job at a sports complex that included an NFL stadium. ALL employees were subject to working or not working a particular game depending on the expected attendance for those games. Same is true for concerts and wrestling, and monster trucks. There could be 10,000 sold tickets or 80,000. The guy that runs the hot dog concession schedules just enough workers to work depending on the attendance.

The players want whatever the hell they want, I have lost track, so it's OK for them to act, but not OK for me to act? That seems to me to be what you are saying.
There seems to be a protest of the month. Two months ago it was the Confederate flag, last month it was the Confederate monuments, now it's what? the National Anthem.

 

[UtahPete]

I wanted to respond to one aspect of the OP statement. First off let me say I always stand for the flag and the National Anthem. Now as far as the NFL or any other professional sports team. You are a paid employee doing a job. Where does that money come from ticket sales and sponsors. So that money comes from your fans. The stadiums provided for you to do your job in are paid for by local and federal government and sponsors. Again from your fans either by purchasing from those sponsors or from tax dollars. And you are using the media to convey your message also paid for by your fans. We do not care what your political view is we want to watch you do your job. and if you are going to continue to try and force us to watch this childish behavior then we will no longer watch your games, buy your merchandise, buy from sponsors who continue to support you , and petition our governments to stop spending our tax money to support you.

Seems to me this is a dispute among sports fans. For the rest of us, it has NOTHING to do with patriotism, so let it go already.