Checking Oil Level 2010 RTS SE5

[JRWW]

I know this topic has been discussed before however I just want to explore it once again. I changed the oil including both filters and went for a ride, the next day when the engine was cold removed the dipstick and re inserted just so the thread sat in the top of the hole. The oil level showed on the dipstick at the top of the 'ADD' mark.

Now it seems to me that I could check my oil level with the bike cold and top up if necessary. Are there any technical reasons why this would not be the case?


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[Bob Denman]

FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS THAT ARE IN THE MANUAL!
unless you want to cause yourself a lot of grief...

Bike is already warmed up to full operating temperature...
let it idle for at least 30 seconds...
(use this time to pull the cover and get your oil, funnel, and rags)
Shut off the bike
unscrew the dipstick; take care to not lose the o-ring!
wipe the dipstick off...
SCREW IT BACK IN FULLY...
unscrew it again...
read your oil level!

[NancysToy]

At the proper oil level, the oil will usually not even touch the dipstick when cold, especially without screwing in the dipstick all the way. The oil level will also vary considerably, depending on ambient temperatures, and as Roger said, some could have drained back to the sump. Do yourself a favor and do it by the book.

[gypsy_100]

...removed the dipstick and re inserted just so the thread sat in the top of the hole. The oil level showed on the dipstick at the top of the 'ADD' mark.

Now it seems to me that I could check my oil level with the bike cold and top up if necessary. Are there any technical reasons why this would not be the case?


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At the proper oil level, the oil will usually not even touch the dipstick when cold, especially without screwing in the dipstick all the way. The oil level will also vary considerably, depending on ambient temperatures, and as Roger said, some could have drained back to the sump. Do yourself a favor and do it by the book.

I agree. When I've checked the oil cold and not after running the engine, you normally won't even see it or sometimes just barely on the tip of the stick. And that's screwed in tight. If you see it with the stick just resting on the threads (ala Honda procedure), you're probably already overfilled. Follow the procedure exactly. And remember, the "full" mark is not the top of the X's but is the ridge in the middle of the X's.

[Bob Denman]

( Scotty; did I at least quote the book accurately?)

[jthornton]

I agree. When I've checked the oil cold and not after running the engine, you normally won't even see it or sometimes just barely on the tip of the stick. And that's screwed in tight. If you see it with the stick just resting on the threads (ala Honda procedure), you're probably already overfilled. Follow the procedure exactly. And remember, the "full" mark is not the top of the X's but is the ridge in the middle of the X's.

According to the RT service manual "full" is at the top bar on the dip stick.

And the RT service manual states "add oil until the oil level reaches the dipstick upper (F) mark. Do Not Overfill."

JT

[napper39]

loke they said the engine should be at operating temps.like a 20 minet ride and then you will get a good reading on mine thats 3 bars on the gage,if you over fill yyou will have a lot of oil in your air box,never cheack cold.

[gypsy_100]

I agree. When I've checked the oil cold and not after running the engine, you normally won't even see it or sometimes just barely on the tip of the stick. And that's screwed in tight. If you see it with the stick just resting on the threads (ala Honda procedure), you're probably already overfilled. Follow the procedure exactly. And remember, the "full" mark is not the top of the X's but is the ridge in the middle of the X's.

According to the RT service manual "full" is at the top bar on the dip stick.

And the RT service manual states "add oil until the oil level reaches the dipstick upper (F) mark. Do Not Overfill."

JT

I agree with you JT and what I said is consistent with your comment. However, if you look at the other side of the dipstick, there are cross hatches or "X's" engraved in the dipstick to help hold the oil there for checking. The "full" ridge or top bar is in the middle of the cross hatches. I have never seen a dipstick (automotive, motorcycle, lawnmower, etc) where the full level was other than the top of the cross hatches. BRP puts it in the middle of the cross hatches. I'm just considering that for someone used to looking at the top of the cross hatches as being "full", they could end up overfilling it. If they didn't read the manual carefully and see the proper "full" ridge or top bar as you have pointed out.

Just trying to find a way to explain and caution about overfilling. I just checked my level totally cold and not running and as Scotty said, it's not even on the dipstick. And that's screwed in tight. So for the originator of this thread to get a cold reading touching the bottom of the dipstick with the dipstick not screwed in, my fear is that it's overfilled. I'm grasping at straws to explain how it could be overfilled yet he thinks it is filled correctly. Maybe there are better explanations and many have been suggested in numerous threads. I'm just offering one more, perhaps unlikely, that I haven't seen mentioned before.

[mdale46]

To bad we can't get some of the service techs. at certain dealerships to get on board with the "by the book" procedure. Just went through and over fill issue on my 2012 RT.

[gypsy_100]

I don't know about the comings and goings of the oil in the Rotax but I can tell you the volume of oil changes little with temperature.

If you run through the volumetric calculations using dino oil coefficients (Can't find synthetics but I bet they're not too far different )
If you assume 1 gal. of oil at 60 F, the thermal expansion works out to 1.0936 gal at 300F.

Yes oil does expand but IMHO not enough to matter much.
So there must be another reason why BRP engineers have us cruising around the block.

You're right as far as you've taken it. But take it further. Four quarts of oil is roughly 231 cubic inches. The cube root of that is roughly 6.135". Sound right? If you set four quart bottles of oil down, they'd be 6x6x6" so it seems correct. Now, let's say all that oil in the compact Rotax engine is in a cube shape with a dimension of 6x6x6". If the oil expands 9% over the temperature range, that would raise the oil level roughly 0.55". The oil can't expand laterally (width or length) so the full expansion must go upwards. So, if the oil is 6" deep, it must expand to 6.5" to accommodate the increase in volume of 9%. If the oil were only 3" deep (8.7x8.7x3"), it would still have to expand a little over 1/4" in the upward direction to accommodate the volume increase. That's the kind of differences we're talking about on the dipstick when we go thru all this.

From a practical viewpoint, I see this all the time on my auto engines when I compare hot to cold readings. There the length and width are much greater so the increase in height is less, maybe 1/8 - 3/16" or so for a 4- or 5-quart auto engine. But it's there. I've confirmed it many times. With the smaller length and width of the Rotax, an increase in height (depth) of 1/4" or more could be quite reasonable.

[rdmiller]

I'm afraid your highly grammatical ejaculations are to copious for my diminutive intellectual scholastical perpensitives to comprehend.

[Phil]

Ok gang, we have loads of very bright people on here. Is there NO way to come up with some replacement dipstick that will give us a readout telling us the oil level??? I found something on the Internet but it was less about level and more about the quality level of the oil. Now that I have Baker AirWings, it's a minor pain to check the oil. So I'd pay good $$$ to the person that comes up with a smart answer.

Bob- resist the urge to make that a smart a** answer


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[boborgera]

Not rocket science, At least it wasn't with my 08Sm5, Remove drain plugs, Drain oil, Remove filter, Reinstall new filter, Re install drain plugs, Pop open 4qt of oil, Add 3 qt, Run engine for a short while, Stop engine, Add the last qt for a total ''only'' of 4qt. And then your done....

[JRWW]

Well, what can I say, I'm the originator of this thread and I'll give some further history to my post. I changed the oil including both filters and filled up with 4.3 lts ( stated in the manual with both filters) which converts to 4.5 quarts (US liquid) and went for a ride, came home checked oil level hot as per the BRP manual and the level was correct. Now the following day I checked the oil cold as posted and as I said it showed with the stick just sitting in the hole at the top of the ADD letters. Another point of interest was that old oil I drained was only 3.3 lts so I was 1 lt low ( a little over 1 quart) both filters were the new type including the new HCM cover.

Now I can understand the oil level changing to less oil as the mileage increases between oil changes however with the oil level correct one day then checking cold the next I know it's not overfull. It seems to me that providing the oil quantity doesn't alter then if checking cold the level should be the same each time. The suggestion that more oil may remain within the sump/motor or elsewhere on different occasions is foreign to my experience with various motors for the last 40 years.

As another post suggested an explanation from BRP would I'm sure assist us all to understand rather than speculation. I will continue to check hot to ensure my levels are correct however for my own interest I'll also check cold for comparison.


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[NancysToy]

It seems to me that providing the oil quantity doesn't alter then if checking cold the level should be the same each time. The suggestion that more oil may remain within the sump/motor or elsewhere on different occasions is foreign to my experience with various motors for the last 40 years.

Apparently you have little experience with dry sump engines. They all share this quirk.

[JRWW]

Well thanks for the info, glad I'm not thin skinned otherwise I could feel a little offended.

There seems to be differing advice as to the correct amount of oil when changing both filters on the SE5. One reply was to add only 4 quarts (3.8 lts) yet my manual clearly states 4.5 quarts (4.3 lts)

I went for a 100 k ride yesterday and checked the oil hot when I got home and it was above the full mark, which could possibly be .5 quart ( .5 lt). I have install Ron's catch can to assist with oil in the air cleaner box and have a K & N filter installed.

Another thing that happen yesterday, I filled up with fuel went to start, low oil level light came on then started and ran at 2200-2500 rpm, switched off, took the key, went and paid then restarted without any issues. Bit of a mystery there.

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
John


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[NancysToy]

That light is low oil pressure, not low oil level.

[Bob Denman]

Bob- resist the urge to make that a smart a** answer

Mum's the word...

This one is too technical for horseplay!

[CyncySpyder]

Not rocket science, At least it wasn't with my 08Sm5, Remove drain plugs, Drain oil, Remove filter, Reinstall new filter, Re install drain plugs, Pop open 4qt of oil, Add 3 qt, Run engine for a short while, Stop engine, Add the last qt for a total ''only'' of 4qt. And then your done....

There seems to be differing advice as to the correct amount of oil when changing both filters on the SE5. One reply was to add only 4 quarts (3.8 lts) yet my manual clearly states 4.5 quarts (4.3 lts)

The answer to your query is highlighted above. He has an SM5 which is a manual transmission, and uses a different amount of oil than that of the SE5 Semi-Automatic transmissions. Your correct to go by YOUR Owners Manual

[HuckFin]

Well, what can I say, I'm the originator of this thread and I'll give some further history to my post. I changed the oil including both filters and filled up with 4.3 lts ( stated in the manual with both filters) which converts to 4.5 quarts (US liquid) and went for a ride, came home checked oil level hot as per the BRP manual and the level was correct. Now the following day I checked the oil cold as posted and as I said it showed with the stick just sitting in the hole at the top of the ADD letters. Another point of interest was that old oil I drained was only 3.3 lts so I was 1 lt low ( a little over 1 quart) both filters were the new type including the new HCM cover.

Now I can understand the oil level changing to less oil as the mileage increases between oil changes however with the oil level correct one day then checking cold the next I know it's not overfull. It seems to me that providing the oil quantity doesn't alter then if checking cold the level should be the same each time. The suggestion that more oil may remain within the sump/motor or elsewhere on different occasions is foreign to my experience with various motors for the last 40 years.

As another post suggested an explanation from BRP would I'm sure assist us all to understand rather than speculation. I will continue to check hot to ensure my levels are correct however for my own interest I'll also check cold for comparison.


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I just put 4.5 qts of oil in after oil change and got the same readings you did. With the exception on cold just sitting in the hole, the dip stick reads just below add mark... Close enough. So I would say your theory is correct.

[jthornton]

I agree with you JT and what I said is consistent with your comment. However, if you look at the other side of the dipstick, there are cross hatches or "X's" engraved in the dipstick to help hold the oil there for checking. The "full" ridge or top bar is in the middle of the cross hatches. I have never seen a dipstick (automotive, motorcycle, lawnmower, etc) where the full level was other than the top of the cross hatches. BRP puts it in the middle of the cross hatches. I'm just considering that for someone used to looking at the top of the cross hatches as being "full", they could end up overfilling it. If they didn't read the manual carefully and see the proper "full" ridge or top bar as you have pointed out.

Just trying to find a way to explain and caution about overfilling. I just checked my level totally cold and not running and as Scotty said, it's not even on the dipstick. And that's screwed in tight. So for the originator of this thread to get a cold reading touching the bottom of the dipstick with the dipstick not screwed in, my fear is that it's overfilled. I'm grasping at straws to explain how it could be overfilled yet he thinks it is filled correctly. Maybe there are better explanations and many have been suggested in numerous threads. I'm just offering one more, perhaps unlikely, that I haven't seen mentioned before.

Seems like the X's are not exactly placed as my Full line is not in the center of any of the X's. I think it is misleading to tell someone to use the X as a reference point now that we know the X's are randomly placed. Plastic injection molders usually have leeway on non critical features. I run into this all the time building automation equipment for assembly lines.

JT

[gypsy_100]

Seems like the X's are not exactly placed as my Full line is not in the center of any of the X's. I think it is misleading to tell someone to use the X as a reference point now that we know the X's are randomly placed. Plastic injection molders usually have leeway on non critical features. I run into this all the time building automation equipment for assembly lines.

JT

Who's telling them to use the X's?? I am telling them not to use the X's but to use the "full line".

[Bob Ledford]

Mum's the word...

This one is too technical for horseplay!

bob I am sorry your tongue is s o sore
P