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  1. #1
    Member rjpera's Avatar
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    Default 2013 ST-S Oil type

    Hello All,

    Robert J here, I am posting this at the risk of beating a dead horse. My Spyder has a clutch chatter when first started cold that's pretty bad.

    It's been to several dealers for this issue and I understand it's a normal condition. It does stop when it warms up.

    What I have noticed is, as the oil wears out this condition gets worse. It's noticeably better after an oil change.

    I have been using the oil change kit from BRP.

    So my question to the group is, Is there a different oil that can be used to help the clutch chatter issue?
    2013 ST-S , Circuit Yellow

  2. #2
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    Try a Full-Synthetic Motorcycle Oil (for wet clutches),rather than BRP's 'it'll probably do until the warranty expires' custom mix Semi-Synthetic....

    But the clutch chatter IS a bit of a 'normal thing' for cold V-twins!
    2013 RT Ltd Pearl White

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    Very Active Member Flamewinger's Avatar
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    It's a cold blooded engine and it will stutter/chatter for a few blocks. Use whatever oil meets the specs on the owners manual. I find it easy to use the XPS kit as it comes with all you need. On my ST I used Castrol 5W-30 full synth motorcycle oil. The oil that comes in the XPS kit is Castrol from what others have found.

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  4. #4
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    One of many alternatives is my Amsoil kits. I like Amsoil because it is a true synthetic oil, which is pretty rare these days. Most go the less expensive manufacturing route of using standard mineral oil with an additive package. If you get 2 oil changes worth, it ends up less expensive than the BRP XPS kits, and you're getting a much better lubricant. I'm not going to say this will cure your early morning chatter issue. But most report it does greatly reduce the problem. And you can safely go 40% farther on Amsoil with the V-Twin and still have better lubrication at 6,500 mile service intervals as opposed to the factory recommended 4,500 service interval.
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  5. #5
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjpera View Post
    Hello All,

    Robert J here, I am posting this at the risk of beating a dead horse. My Spyder has a clutch chatter when first started cold that's pretty bad.

    It's been to several dealers for this issue and I understand it's a normal condition. It does stop when it warms up.

    What I have noticed is, as the oil wears out this condition gets worse. It's noticeably better after an oil change.

    I have been using the oil change kit from BRP.

    So my question to the group is, Is there a different oil that can be used to help the clutch chatter issue?
    Yes it COULD be oil type related ..... but maybe NOT .... how many miles on that Spyder ???? .... do you know how many miles on the current oil ??? ... I had two V-twin's and never noticed " clutch chatter " upon cold starting ..... help us help you ...... Mike annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd

  6. #6
    Very Active Member Snowbelt Spyder's Avatar
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    Hi Robert. Here's a link to the official BRP TST on this behavior, in case you wanted to see it in writing. Give it a few seconds to appear. It is the result of a clutch re-design for 2013 and later V-Twins. It's actually a stronger clutch than earlier versions. The document can be downloaded to your computer for future reference.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k3M...ew?usp=sharing


    Doug

    2012 Spyder RT LTD Lava Bronze, RT 622

    Original Owner

    Seal Pups, F4 Customs SWCV, Corbin, JT's Air Filter, Cat Bypass, Power Commander V, NBV, SpyderFlap, Rivco Dual Flag Holder, Lidlox, Baja Ron Sway Bar, links, plugs and wires, Adjustable Chrome Side Vents, Spyderpops Block Off Plate and Belt Guard, Bump Skid, Canisterectomy, Akrapovic, TricLed HL/FL and Mag Mirrors, Spyder Cuff with X-Grip, S-Drive, Quatrac 5, Rock Armour, P238, Smoothspyder, Laser Alignment by Gray Ghost, Windshield Arm by Noboot.

  7. #7
    Member rjpera's Avatar
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    Thanks to everyone for the replies.

    There is about 2500 miles on the current oil, the bike has about 10.000 miles on it.

    I was thinking about going to a full synthetic oil which brings me to a second question.
    There is a significant engine RPM flare in 3rd 4th and 5th gears during a full throttle acceleration.
    The clutch holds and the bike accelerates but there is a 1000 to 1500 RPM flare, is this normal?
    The dealer has had the clutch out of this thing and says it looks perfect.
    The oil is not scorched or black.
    Synthetic oil is very slippery stuff and I don't want to make this condition worse.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks..............Robert
    2013 ST-S , Circuit Yellow

  8. #8
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    I recognise that you said you're using the BRP oil change kits, but are you sure they were the kits for Spyders?? Basically, are you absolutely sure that you've been using motorcycle oil that's suitable for wet-clutches??

    What you describe is pretty indicative of using a 'normal' engine oil, and not a motorcycle/wet clutch oil!

    There again, are you still running the OE Spec Kendas?? If so, how many miles AND years do they have on them?? If an OE Spec Kenda rear tire is anything much more than about 4 years old, there's a good chance it's simply got very little grip under power, even if it isn't completely worn out yet, especially if the road surface isn't a 'high traction' surface!
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 02-14-2021 at 12:52 AM.
    2013 RT Ltd Pearl White

  9. #9
    Member rjpera's Avatar
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    Peter,

    Thank you for your input. I can only attest to what Can Am has put into the plastic containers. It is the oil and filter kit they spec out for the bike.
    The part# is BRP 38. I would be open to a different oil if someone knows of a product that has been run without issues.

    The rear wheel spin is an interesting take on the issue but at 100HP and 800lbs, I don't think the bike has the ability to do it in 3rd, 4th or 5th.
    It does not have a Kenda on the back. Also , if it was loosing traction it would leave a mark on the street. It doesn't do that.

    Thanks for your help................Robert
    2013 ST-S , Circuit Yellow

  10. #10
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    This is the SE5, not the SM5, correct?
    Peggy and Howard

    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S SM5

    His: 1999 Honda VFR Interceptor

  11. #11
    Member rjpera's Avatar
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    Peggy and Howard,

    Yes, it has the SE5 semi-automatic.

    I have a 2000 VFR, you have a sweet ride there buddy.
    2013 ST-S , Circuit Yellow

  12. #12
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    Thank you. It is sweet. I love that V-4 sound and gear whine. I've owned it since 2000, and have never given a thought to getting rid of it.
    The sound at 10,000+ rpm is intoxicating. I've done some work on it including Ohlins rear shock and RaceTech springs in front, and SS brake
    lines with a Yoshi pipe. I considered getting the new header that they're making now, but just can't seem to make myself break loose with the
    dough. Twenty years ago I'd have done it in a heartbeat.

    Just bought some new shoes for it, along with new rubber for Peggy's Spyder. The Spyder is fun, not as much fun as a bike, but fun in another
    way. Won't replace the Interceptor, but Peggy thinks it's very cool.
    Peggy and Howard

    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S SM5

    His: 1999 Honda VFR Interceptor

  13. #13
    Very Active Member Snowbelt Spyder's Avatar
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    Robert. Not sure where you are seeing 38 for the part number, unless it’s on the box someplace. The standard part number for the oil change kit is a 6 digit SKU. So, just to check, this one is yours. 991 SE5 on the box.

    https://can-am-shop.brp.com/on-road/...e5-engine.html

    Another thought or two, the SE5 transmission is designed for you to hold the throttle steady as you shift. Hold the throttle steady, depress the paddle shifter, and the computers do the rest. Also, you operate and shift the Rotax engine at high RPMs, which keeps the centrifugal clutch assembly fully engaged with the clutch pack. So, you’ll want to maintain RPMs above 3000, except when stopping and starting, and do your shifting above 5000. Otherwise, you can get momentary clutch slippage if RPMs drop too low.

    If you haven’t seen this yet, read through the Do and Do Not thread for what is applicable to your engine.

    https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...-Spyder-owners


    Doug

    2012 Spyder RT LTD Lava Bronze, RT 622

    Original Owner

    Seal Pups, F4 Customs SWCV, Corbin, JT's Air Filter, Cat Bypass, Power Commander V, NBV, SpyderFlap, Rivco Dual Flag Holder, Lidlox, Baja Ron Sway Bar, links, plugs and wires, Adjustable Chrome Side Vents, Spyderpops Block Off Plate and Belt Guard, Bump Skid, Canisterectomy, Akrapovic, TricLed HL/FL and Mag Mirrors, Spyder Cuff with X-Grip, S-Drive, Quatrac 5, Rock Armour, P238, Smoothspyder, Laser Alignment by Gray Ghost, Windshield Arm by Noboot.

  14. #14
    Member rjpera's Avatar
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    Snowbelt,

    Thank you very much for your input.

    I'm pretty sure the oil you mentioned is what's in but I'll recheck it.

    The "do's and don'ts " link was very helpful, thanks for sharing it with me.

    That's a sweet Spyder you have.

    Ride safe...............Robert
    2013 ST-S , Circuit Yellow

  15. #15
    Member rjpera's Avatar
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    Yeah, I love that engine as well. I put a set of Dunlop Street smart 3"s on some newly painted wheels this year, going to try them. Tired of that rear tire replacement every year.
    Went with a Delkevic pipe this year as well. It sounds pretty good.

    Ride safe..................Robert
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    2013 ST-S , Circuit Yellow

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    Here's a picture of Peggy and I dancing through Tail of the Dragon.

    R3hnif7.jpg

    I have since had the wheels powder coated red.

    XoHrKhf.jpg

    That yellow does look good though.
    Peggy and Howard

    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S SM5

    His: 1999 Honda VFR Interceptor

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjpera View Post
    Thanks to everyone for the replies.

    There is about 2500 miles on the current oil, the bike has about 10.000 miles on it.

    I was thinking about going to a full synthetic oil which brings me to a second question.
    There is a significant engine RPM flare in 3rd 4th and 5th gears during a full throttle acceleration.
    The clutch holds and the bike accelerates but there is a 1000 to 1500 RPM flare, is this normal?
    The dealer has had the clutch out of this thing and says it looks perfect.
    The oil is not scorched or black.
    Synthetic oil is very slippery stuff and I don't want to make this condition worse.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks..............Robert
    Mine is a 2014 with around 11,000 miles on it. I run fulll synthetic oil (Penrite MC 4ST 10w 40 Factory Racing) and get the chatter. I simply follow the recommendations in the TST which lessens the amount it happens.

    Reminds me of the instructions for the motor on the boat when shifting into gear. Use a positive motion don't let it sit there with the gears chattering in no man's land.

    Once I get out of the driveway then no issues.

    I don't get the flare in any gear and it amazes me how quick it does shift and how smooth it is. Really impressive and much smoother/faster than I could do myself.

    Like most things if you stuff up the change it will punish you with a slur or a clunk/jerk but that is my fault. Usually only in traffic where the best laid plans are put to rest or when travelling in 30mph zones and I am lazy with the throttle.
    2014 ST-S SE5 Cognac
    2014 ST-S , Cognac

  18. #18
    Member rjpera's Avatar
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    Hello and thanks to everyone for the reply's.

    Going to change the oil over to the Amsoil 10W-40 and see how that goes.

    I know it wont fix the inherent cold clutch issue but maybe it will help. I prefer the synthetic oil anyway.

    It is the cold season here so I probably wont change the oil and run it until May.

    I'll keep you posted

    Robert J
    2013 ST-S , Circuit Yellow

  19. #19
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjpera View Post
    Thanks to everyone for the replies.

    There is about 2500 miles on the current oil, the bike has about 10.000 miles on it.

    I was thinking about going to a full synthetic oil which brings me to a second question.
    There is a significant engine RPM flare in 3rd 4th and 5th gears during a full throttle acceleration.
    The clutch holds and the bike accelerates but there is a 1000 to 1500 RPM flare, is this normal?
    The dealer has had the clutch out of this thing and says it looks perfect.
    The oil is not scorched or black.
    Synthetic oil is very slippery stuff and I don't want to make this condition worse.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks..............Robert
    It would be concerning to me that there is this significant 'Flare' in RPM without a corresponding surge in acceleration. Clutch slippage is more common in higher gears. There can be only 2 explanations for this. Clutch slippage or rear wheel spin. Since I agree with you that rear wheel spin is unlikely. That leaves only 1 alternative.

    Synthetic oil isn't necessarily 'Slipperier'. It is better at keeping moving surfaces separated. In a perfect world. A lubricant will keep metal parts from ever coming together. The better the lubricant, the less hard part contact you will get. What you want to look for in regards to clutch engagement is the JASO rating. JASO MA2 provides the most clutch engagement friction and is what should be used in the Spyder, regardless of which oil class is used.

    It does sound counter-productive to make a lubricant specifically designed to keep parts from touching. And then engineer it so that the clutch plates get as much friction as possible. This is why a wet clutch lubricant is so much more expensive than a lubricant that actually will do a better job of lubrication. Getting 1 product to do 2 diametrically opposed jobs well, at the same time, costs more.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 02-23-2021 at 10:41 AM.
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