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  1. #1
    Very Active Member billybovine's Avatar
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    Default No discussions on oil lately. So maybe time!!!

    Found a good video discussing oil viscosities for automotive. I know this is for car engines but basically applies to our Spyders. Be nice.

    https://youtu.be/IKdhgKUZhPA

    2018 F3 LIMITED

  2. #2
    Active Member SportsterDoc's Avatar
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    Since XPS only rates their 5W40 up to 104 F, I went with 10W50 for my Ryker.
    112 F forecast for Las Vegas Valley this week (124 F in Death Valley)
    20 Can Am Ryker 900 ACE...02 H-D Sportster 1200S.....72 Yamaha AT2
    14 Honda CB1100 std..........03 H-D Sportster XLH883...70 Honda SL350
    18 Yamaha XT250...............76 Honda CB750F..............70 Honda CL350
    16 Moto Guzzi V7II..............75 Honda CB360...............67 Honda CL160
    17 Yamaha TW200...............70 Yamaha CT...................67 Honda CB160
    12 Triumph Bonneville..........72 Yamaha CT2.................62 Honda CA110

  3. #3
    aka: akspyderman ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Oils well that ends well.

    Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow), 2015 Vulcan 900 LTD

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium). 6 Spyders, 11 years, 167,000 miles


  4. #4
    Very Active Member JP58's Avatar
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    The guy is saying not good to go up in viscosity on cold number. BRP recommends 5w40. Many here are using 10w40. So are we ruining our engines?

  5. #5
    Active Member SportsterDoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARtraveler View Post
    Oils well that ends well.
    That works even better when pronounced by a Texan (awl = oil)!
    20 Can Am Ryker 900 ACE...02 H-D Sportster 1200S.....72 Yamaha AT2
    14 Honda CB1100 std..........03 H-D Sportster XLH883...70 Honda SL350
    18 Yamaha XT250...............76 Honda CB750F..............70 Honda CL350
    16 Moto Guzzi V7II..............75 Honda CB360...............67 Honda CL160
    17 Yamaha TW200...............70 Yamaha CT...................67 Honda CB160
    12 Triumph Bonneville..........72 Yamaha CT2.................62 Honda CA110

  6. #6
    Active Member SportsterDoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP58 View Post
    The guy is saying not good to go up in viscosity on cold number. BRP recommends 5w40. Many here are using 10w40. So are we ruining our engines?
    That is generally good advice for very cold weather areas. For hot areas, the concern is the upper number.
    20 Can Am Ryker 900 ACE...02 H-D Sportster 1200S.....72 Yamaha AT2
    14 Honda CB1100 std..........03 H-D Sportster XLH883...70 Honda SL350
    18 Yamaha XT250...............76 Honda CB750F..............70 Honda CL350
    16 Moto Guzzi V7II..............75 Honda CB360...............67 Honda CL160
    17 Yamaha TW200...............70 Yamaha CT...................67 Honda CB160
    12 Triumph Bonneville..........72 Yamaha CT2.................62 Honda CA110

  7. #7
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP58 View Post
    The guy is saying not good to go up in viscosity on cold number. BRP recommends 5w40. Many here are using 10w40. So are we ruining our engines?
    BRP recommends what they have.

    Originally, the 998 Rotax was built for the Aprilia - Recommended Lubricant: 20w-50 Oil.
    Aprilia.jpg

    BRP modified this engine to get more torque, sacrificing HP, for the Spyder. Recommended Lubricant: 10w-40 Oil.

    BRP consolidated their lubricants, several years later, from many to just a few. These remaining lubricants have to cover everything from a snowmobile, which may sit overnight (or longer) in sub-zero temperatures. To side-by-sides, our Spyder/Ryker's, watercraft, etc. You need a very low, cold start viscosity number (0w or 5w) for a snowmobile. But you need a high number (40 or 50) for an off road vehicle or our Spyders running in much hotter temperatures.

    Another factor is, the wider the spread between the low number and the high number. The less stable the lubricant is. So, you really want the narrowest spread that will get the job done for your application. Because your Spyder/Ryker probably does not need to be started with an oil temperature in the sub-zero range. You really don't need a 5w oil. This is why a 10w or 15w-40 oil is actually a much better fit for the Spyder/Ryker than the BRP lubricants. A full synthetic 10w oil will get you down to a zero degree cold start. Most of our Spyder/Ryker's never see cold start temperatures anywhere near this cold.

    Some people tell me they ride their Spyder/Ryker in sub-zero temperatures. But this has no bearing on what oil viscosity is needed. It's the cold start temperature of your machine (Oil) that is critical. Once the engine is running, it doesn't really care what the ambient air temperature is.

    For someone running much of the time in 90 degree to triple digit temperatures. A 20w-50 weight oil is not a bad idea. You'll loose some fuel mileage. But it will be minimal. And engine protection is more important.

    Lubricants have come a long way in the last few decades. We now have 'One Size Fits Many' products. But you can still get better service if you more closely match your needs to a lubricant that best fits the conditions.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 07-29-2020 at 12:10 PM.
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  8. #8
    Very Active Member pegasus1300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARtraveler View Post
    Oils well that ends well.
    that was pretty slick

    Happy TRAils/NSD
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  9. #9
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    "Another factor is, the wider the spread between the low number and the high number." Prior to the demise of Mechanix Illustrated, Ron's comment was addressed in one of the latter issues. Recommended use of oils (at that time) with a range greater than 10W30 was discouraged. Reason being was that the modern additives in oils increasing their high and low applications, built up over time in the piston ring groves decreasing the function of the rings. Exactly what those additives were and if they're still being used today, I don't know.

  10. #10
    Very Active Member ulflyer's Avatar
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    I read Bob is The Oil Guy forum all the time and a number of oil tests of Rotella T6 synthetic 5W-40 in motorcycles showed that it sheared quickly at 2K or less. I have that in my F3T now but don't intend to run it longer than 2K miles. I think a number of folks run the T6 in their Can Am's and wonder if any have had the oil tested at 5K or higher?

    I did read one detailed report from a car guru who noted that oil tended to shear down to upper 20, low 30 range quickly but then evened out for the next umpteen thousand miles. Maybe that's the case with motorcycles, but inclined to think that our wet clutch transmissions cause most of the shearing.

    Anyway, I plan on going with 10-40 Amsoil my next change.
    2014 RT SE (Sold Aug 16 after purchasing a Slingshot)
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  11. #11
    Very Active Member Lew L's Avatar
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    +1
    I'm also switching to 10W40 Amsoil soonest. I had planned on the switch from Rotella BEFORE I read this thread.

    Lew L
    Kaos----- Gone but not forgotten.

    2014 RTS in circuit yellow, farkeling addiction down to once every few months.ECU FLASH IS GREAT.

  12. #12
    Very Active Member Ex-Rocket's Avatar
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    I used Amsoil 10w40 in my previous Spyder a 2015 RTS and still using it in my 2017 F3L



    2017 F3 Limited in Intense Red Pearl

  13. #13
    Very Active Member billybovine's Avatar
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    Rotella T6 5W-40. Shell has removed all mention of being suitable for motorcycles. From both the jugs and online literature. But the specs still say meets JASO MA/MA2.

    Rotella T6 0W-40. Shell has never listed it for motorcycles and does not have the JASO clutch slippage spec listed at all.

    That is what they have done in Canada at least.

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  14. #14
    Active Member SportsterDoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    Another factor is, the wider the spread between the low number and the high number. The less stable the lubricant is. So, you really want the narrowest spread that will get the job done for your application.
    That was a valid concern in the 1970s with 10W40, but as you stated at the close of your post, "Lubricants have come a long way in the last few decades."
    10W60 (specified by MG) Motoul worked very well in my Moto Guzi in temps up to 116F.
    20 Can Am Ryker 900 ACE...02 H-D Sportster 1200S.....72 Yamaha AT2
    14 Honda CB1100 std..........03 H-D Sportster XLH883...70 Honda SL350
    18 Yamaha XT250...............76 Honda CB750F..............70 Honda CL350
    16 Moto Guzzi V7II..............75 Honda CB360...............67 Honda CL160
    17 Yamaha TW200...............70 Yamaha CT...................67 Honda CB160
    12 Triumph Bonneville..........72 Yamaha CT2.................62 Honda CA110

  15. #15
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    When was the last time anyone here had an oil related engine failure on anything they own?

  16. #16
    Active Member EdMat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navydad View Post
    When was the last time anyone here had an oil related engine failure on anything they own?
    Not sure you meant it as a question or an actual statement, but, modern "major brand" oils are for the most part so good i don't think oil related failure enters into the picture.

  17. #17
    Very Active Member troop's Avatar
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    I'd really like to see an oil analysis of Amsoil/M1 10w40 or Castrol 10w50 after a BRP stated 9000 mile run time. Has anybody ran their oil for 9k miles?


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  18. #18
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    Everything BajaRon said.
    I currently have Motul 7100 10w40 in my 19.
    I will be switching to the 300V 15w50 in the spring.
    Looking at specs, it barely nudges into the 50 weight range, and with the heavier base oil, should maintain viscosity well over the change interval, shearing into a 40 weight range and staying for a while.
    My 12 had a lot of different oils in it, (I experiment) but the stand-out used oil analysis was on generic, black bottle Havoline 20w50 conventional. At 4000 miles in, it was still testing at a 20w40, with some shear present, and very low Fe numbers (iron) that tracks higher with mileage. The VTwin shears oil, and 40 weights (usually) drain as 20 weight oil at 4000 miles.

  19. #19
    aka: akspyderman ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus1300 View Post
    that was pretty slick
    Just so it's not considered to crude.

    Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow), 2015 Vulcan 900 LTD

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium). 6 Spyders, 11 years, 167,000 miles


  20. #20
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdMat View Post
    Not sure you meant it as a question or an actual statement, but, modern "major brand" oils are for the most part so good i don't think oil related failure enters into the picture.
    There is a spectrum between 'Failure' and 'Optimal'. I think this is where a discussion on lubricants is valuable.

    Oils have improved because engines have improved. And vise-versa. Machined tolerances in today's engines are much smaller. Plus, the energy output per cubic inch has increased a great deal. Internal pressures and temperatures are much higher than in days gone by. Modern engines would not be able to function for very long without the current improvements in lubricants matching the the requirements.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 07-30-2020 at 09:31 AM.
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  21. #21
    Active Member SportsterDoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    There is a spectrum between 'Failure' and 'Optimal'. I think this is where a discussion on lubricants is valuable.
    Yes.
    Quality brand
    Viscosity appropriate for ambient
    Change before particle suspension is heavy (oil analysis or no, 9,000 miles is a concern)
    20 Can Am Ryker 900 ACE...02 H-D Sportster 1200S.....72 Yamaha AT2
    14 Honda CB1100 std..........03 H-D Sportster XLH883...70 Honda SL350
    18 Yamaha XT250...............76 Honda CB750F..............70 Honda CL350
    16 Moto Guzzi V7II..............75 Honda CB360...............67 Honda CL160
    17 Yamaha TW200...............70 Yamaha CT...................67 Honda CB160
    12 Triumph Bonneville..........72 Yamaha CT2.................62 Honda CA110

  22. #22
    Very Active Member pegasus1300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARtraveler View Post
    Just so it's not considered to crude.
    That was shear genius.

    Happy TRAils/NSD
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  23. #23
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SportsterDoc View Post
    Yes.
    Quality brand
    Viscosity appropriate for ambient
    Change before particle suspension is heavy (oil analysis or no, 9,000 miles is a concern)


    There are some very interesting aspects to this which have never been (nor will likely ever be) addressed.

    The service interval on the 998 V-Twin has always been 4,500 miles from the beginning. This makes perfect sense when using the BRP lubricant because innumerable tests consistently show it begins to shear and lose viscosity in a steep decline at this mileage.

    Fast forward to the 1330 triple. Same oil, same steep decline in viscosity at around 4,500 miles. But a magical service interval of 9,300 miles. This means the typical 1330 owner is running 20 weight oil for close to 5,000 miles between each service.

    Now, to be fair, there have been, to my knowledge, no 'Engine Failure's' reported, as mentioned in a previous post. So, does this mean that the 1330 is fine with 20 weight oil? If so, why not spec. a 20 weight oil to start with? And why continue to recommend a 4,500 mile service interval for the 998 V-Twin if running at 20 weight is a good idea?

    Granted, we are talking just a bit of apples and oranges here, since we've got 2 different engines. But you can't escape the fact that the lubricant performs pretty much identically in both systems.
    Only SLOW people have to leave on time...





  24. #24
    Very Active Member JayBros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troop View Post
    ...Has anybody ran their oil for 9k miles?
    I do it every oil change with Amsoil Metric Full Synthetic 10W-40. Here are all the analyses I have had done. The first one with Amsoil had excess condensation because my winter morning trip to/from the gym was too short for the oil to fully heat up so I tripled the distance in the subsequent analyses.

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  25. #25
    Active Member SportsterDoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBros View Post
    ...The first one with Amsoil had excess condensation because my winter morning trip to/from the gym was too short for the oil to fully heat up so I tripled the distance in the subsequent analyses.
    Very good excuse for a longer ride!
    When I had my Sportsters, it was only 7 miles to my shop.
    In SoCal winters, oil barely got to 155 F in the mornings...so I left earlier and took longer ways to work.
    20 Can Am Ryker 900 ACE...02 H-D Sportster 1200S.....72 Yamaha AT2
    14 Honda CB1100 std..........03 H-D Sportster XLH883...70 Honda SL350
    18 Yamaha XT250...............76 Honda CB750F..............70 Honda CL350
    16 Moto Guzzi V7II..............75 Honda CB360...............67 Honda CL160
    17 Yamaha TW200...............70 Yamaha CT...................67 Honda CB160
    12 Triumph Bonneville..........72 Yamaha CT2.................62 Honda CA110

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