What is a reasonable time to wait for a dealer to service your Spyder?

[Denno]

Forums in general...

.... I also did not see this forum or read about this issue prior to buying it or I never would have bought it in the first place. Lots of great, honest info out there but it would have deterred me. I'm glad I got it, it's a great experience and so much fun to drive but like canamjhb said (and is spot on), service is the Achilles for this brand...

In the past I have belonged to various motorcycle forums pertaining to the bike I was riding at the time. My forum online activity started with the Valkyrie, then Goldwing 1800, then Harleys, then K1600 BMW, and now the Spyder. If I let the conversations on the specific forum influence me too much, I would not have bought any of those bikes. And then, once I had the bike, I was worried I would need to carry a set of spare parts based on all the breakdown comments.
Maybe I was extremely fortunate, but it turned out for me, all of those bikes were basically problem free and many had over 60K miles before I went to another. I remember when on trips with the Harley I talked to several folks and when I brought up a discussion mentioning something about the forum, they looked at me like I had 2 heads. I soon realized there are a huge multitude of folks out there that just ride and they skip the whole forum experience all together. They don't even think about potential issues with their bike, they just ride it.
I like this forum for all the great information and great folks on it, but just because you see some issues here that are discussed, don't let it get you down and don't assume these issues effect a huge percentage of the Spyders out there. Yes, I think the dealer situation sucks, both the few choices and the service from some of them, but so far my opinion of the Spyder is pretty high and I think its the only nice trike option out there. Just my opinion....

 

[gerald37]

In the past I have belonged to various motorcycle forums pertaining to the bike I was riding at the time. My forum online activity started with the Valkyrie, then Goldwing 1800, then Harleys, then K1600 BMW, and now the Spyder. If I let the conversations on the specific forum influence me too much, I would not have bought any of those bikes. And then, once I had the bike, I was worried I would need to carry a set of spare parts based on all the breakdown comments.
Maybe I was extremely fortunate, but it turned out for me, all of those bikes were basically problem free and many had over 60K miles before I went to another. I remember when on trips with the Harley I talked to several folks and when I brought up a discussion mentioning something about the forum, they looked at me like I had 2 heads. I soon realized there are a huge multitude of folks out there that just ride and they skip the whole forum experience all together. They don't even think about potential issues with their bike, they just ride it.
I like this forum for all the great information and great folks on it, but just because you see some issues here that are discussed, don't let it get you down and don't assume these issues effect a huge percentage of the Spyders out there. Yes, I think the dealer situation sucks, both the few choices and the service from some of them, but so far my opinion of the Spyder is pretty high and I think its the only nice trike option out there. Just my opinion....

This is a very good summary of the situation. I have owned many different bikes and also joined the forums of the bike I was riding. I had 2 BMW K1200LT's and the website on them had all kinds of problems listed. They had a lot of rear end drives go out and I did have one under warranty. The thing with them it was in the shop 3 days and back on the road. On every motorcycle forum when ever anyone has a problem they will report it. You never get all the trouble free mentioned. I am really beginning to feel that the Spyder does not have anymore or even less problems than some of the other bikes. I do agree the dealer situation sucks. This forum has really helped me to maintain and make changes on my Spyder.

 

[UtahPete]

My Spyder threw an error code and went to limp mode last week, so I got it to my local CanAm dealer last Saturday. When I called today, I was told they would not get to looking at the bike for at least two weeks. I do understand that it is summer and the wait for repairs is much longer than mid-winter, but is 2-3 weeks normal to wait just for a place to pull the code? Not to mention that if it needs parts, they need to be ordered, and the last time it needed parts it was another week waiting on those to come in. If it's three weeks to look at it, one week to order parts and another week to install them, I won't be riding until the end of July. Is this normal at this time of year?

Depending on the dealer, there can be a 2-3 week wait for Spyder service at any time of year. Yes, this is normal.

In the future, you might want to hang onto your bike while waiting for your appointment to come up. There's always a chance you can clear the codes yourself with help from this community. And, as long as it's not a safety issue, keep riding while waiting.

You could also ask them to hook up their computer and do a diagnostic much sooner than 2 - 3 weeks. Most likely, they have you booked that far out only because they are expecting a 3-4 hour service. But, the computer diagnostic only takes a few minutes.

 

[Captain Kidd]

after 7 WEEKS, it was ready for pick up. .

Oh my - 7 weeks! Egads :shocked:

 

[Captain Kidd]

do u think its just can am service thats backed up get agrip they are all about two weeks out do care what you ride we have four shops for can am in our area they are all two weeks out im tired of you people thinkin you should be able to ride or trailer in and get right out

My intent on this post was to present my specific situation and ask if is it normal to have this happen. I think that's fair to ask others if they are having the same experience. Since "Yes" is the consensus, along with some good advice from fellow forum members, that is my answer. Now, I don't feel that I should be able to ride in and ride out, that's unreasonable and I don't think I should go ahead of others or get anything special. But if everyone else on the planet got in and out in less than a week at this time of year, then I would know it was this particular dealership and to move to another, but that's not the case so the bike will remain there. And honestly, I feel badly for the people who work in the service department because they get the brunt of angry customers. That's gotta suck badly and it would make me hate my job.

Anyways, bottom line is it sounds like BRP is not providing small dealerships enough in recruiting and training Spyder-specific mechanics. Unless that changes, I will need to get myself more mechanically inclined.

 

[Captain Kidd]

Depending on the dealer, there can be a 2-3 week wait for Spyder service at any time of year. Yes, this is normal.

In the future, you might want to hang onto your bike while waiting for your appointment to come up. There's always a chance you can clear the codes yourself with help from this community. And, as long as it's not a safety issue, keep riding while waiting.

You could also ask them to hook up their computer and do a diagnostic much sooner than 2 - 3 weeks. Most likely, they have you booked that far out only because they are expecting a 3-4 hour service. But, the computer diagnostic only takes a few minutes.

Thank you, I will give them a call and see what they say.

 

[Captain Kidd]

Remember if they order parts - it takes even longer (they have to screw that up at least once before getting the right part)

That comment about them screwing it up made me laugh (it's true!) and your comments about the watercraft make sense. Thanks!

 

[Captain Kidd]

You are right. For people with mechanical ability, a good manual, and correct tools you can take care of most problems. The Spyder is not that challenging. I can understand the frustration for people that do not have the ability to do their own work or just don't want to. To a person with mechanical ability some things do not look complicated but it is much different to others. I sure would not like to own a Spyder if I had to depend on some of the dealers around my area.

Looks like I need to get myself a manual! Thanks for the info

 

[Captain Kidd]

This is a very good summary of the situation. I have owned many different bikes and also joined the forums of the bike I was riding. I had 2 BMW K1200LT's and the website on them had all kinds of problems listed. They had a lot of rear end drives go out and I did have one under warranty. The thing with them it was in the shop 3 days and back on the road. On every motorcycle forum when ever anyone has a problem they will report it. You never get all the trouble free mentioned. I am really beginning to feel that the Spyder does not have anymore or even less problems than some of the other bikes. I do agree the dealer situation sucks. This forum has really helped me to maintain and make changes on my Spyder.

The Spyder isn't my first bike, so I guess I got used to things being a certain way from other shops. That said, the Spyder is great and I'm happy I got it... and happy I didn't listen to the forums before I bought it! Can't beat this forum for information on everything about the Spyder. I just need to get more time in the shop to not be intimidated by it.

 

[fatenhappy]

Thanks for all of your responses! I guess I need to clarify some things, I didn't want to make my post too long.

• I do have the codes and I did my due diligence to look them up (many thanks to this forum!) and the code indicates a sensor needs to be replaced, which is above my pay grade. However, the service department doesn't seem to care about what code or what I found and says they have to start by pulling the code themselves. In fact, when I called them on Wednesday they had zero notes on file on even what the problem was but it doesn't matter - the dealer said that they won't diagnose until they put it on the reader and putting the bike on the reader alone just to verify the code will take at least two weeks.
• I can't drive it because it keeps throwing the code and going into limp mode. The other closest dealer is ~50 miles away so I would have to trailer it there. However, my local dealership has an excellent Spyder mechanic (he's done work on it before) and I know he will do a great job once he gets to it. It's just giving up on prime riding season.
• And as far as me being mechanically inclined (fair question...but ouch!), I'm sure the jury is out on that and while I can throw a wrench a little, this bike is so computerized that I don't want to tinker with sensors. I did lots of work on my old Suzuki motorcycle but it was much simpler. I don't feel confident that I have the skills and experience to work on the Spyder myself for most issues because so many things can go wrong that I don't have tools (or brains or money) to fix.
• I initially went to this dealership to buy a Spyder but I had such a negative experience with their sales department that I bought from a dealership out of state that gave me great service. To sum it up - Maybe I'm old school but if I am wandering around your department looking at bikes, I don't think I need to go find you and ask for help. And when I do, you're texting on your phone, you act annoyed I bothered you and you don't even look up at me to answer my question... and keep on texting, I'm done. This dealership has many 5-star reviews, and I was in there more than once to try and work with them on slow business days and still bad or no service from sales, so I am going to go with there's something wrong with my face that makes them not want to work with me. The service department is another story - very good mechanics, hard working, honest, fair priced. Just horribly far behind. Obviously two different management styles in those two areas.
• gerald37, I also did not see this forum or read about this issue prior to buying it or I never would have bought it in the first place. Lots of great, honest info out there but it would have deterred me. I'm glad I got it, it's a great experience and so much fun to drive but like canamjhb said (and is spot on), service is the Achilles for this brand.

Thanks again for your input, I now know this is a common situation and if BRP wants to stay in business, they need to get more trained mechanics out in the industry to service their customers after the sale. Happy customers are repeat customers.

Captain K … I have briefly been flicking through your history to find out without bothering you … Just how old is the bike? … It sounds fairly new so if so or at least purchased within recent times, isn't there a warranty period?

 

[fatenhappy]

I would find another dealer, there is no reason you should have to wait that long for service. I now ride 160 miles to use a dealer that puts my needs first, and appreciated my business They are out there, you just have to find them. There is a group on Facebook that now has a service listing of many dealers and their customers opinions, put together by Doc Humphries and Spyder owners. You might look for it.

Got to agree whole heartedly … If I was continually being given the middle finger like it would appear Captain Kidd is I'd be doing his alternate plane of the hours drive with the trailer to his preferred people … (… might well pay to ring them up first to see if they were willing to help the situation before organising all that though ...)

 

[Carold571]

When I called Big #1 about my bike in limp mode, they told me to bring it in. After I towed it 200 miles, they told me it would be a 2 week wait. If they told be that when I called, I would have brought it in 2 weeks later. Decided to leave the bike and wait my turn. I purchased my bike there new in 2015. Had service done there 2 different times and was satisfied with their service. But this time it was a nightmare. After 3 1/2 weeks when I called to check on my bike, the service tech had no idea my bike was there and said they would call me back which they never did. After a week of waiting for a call back I called them. Over a period of 3 weeks I was told my bike would be ready 3 different times, and it was not. I finally had to call the General Manager. He said it was inexcusable and got involved. I finally got my bike back. They had it for a total of 7weeks. Checking my bike after getting home, there is no doubt in my mind, this bike was stored outside. Waiting 2 weeks for service and waiting 2 weeks for parts is reasonable. But another 3 weeks to do the job is not reasonable.

 

[gerald37]

When I called Big #1 about my bike in limp mode, they told me to bring it in. After I towed it 200 miles, they told me it would be a 2 week wait. If they told be that when I called, I would have brought it in 2 weeks later. Decided to leave the bike and wait my turn. I purchased my bike there new in 2015. Had service done there 2 different times and was satisfied with their service. But this time it was a nightmare. After 3 1/2 weeks when I called to check on my bike, the service tech had no idea my bike was there and said they would call me back which they never did. After a week of waiting for a call back I called them. Over a period of 3 weeks I was told my bike would be ready 3 different times, and it was not. I finally had to call the General Manager. He said it was inexcusable and got involved. I finally got my bike back. They had it for a total of 7weeks. Checking my bike after getting home, there is no doubt in my mind, this bike was stored outside. Waiting 2 weeks for service and waiting 2 weeks for parts is reasonable. But another 3 weeks to do the job is not reasonable.

You people on here sure have more patience's than I would. Through the riding months I ride everyday so I sure would not be out of a bike for a third of my riding season.

 

[spydercamp13]

Slow/Bad service

I recently had a problem getting my 2014 RTS 28000 mile service completed. I scheduled it ahead of time and allowed them almost a full week to get it done. Front tires needed changing, I offered to go to parts and pay for them ahead of time so they would have them and was told it's not necessary, they have them in stock and this was a week before I actually dropped it off for service. The day I dropped it off for service I was told that customs has a hold on the coolant and BRP was hoping to get it released soon, service manager wanted me to know. I said fine, if the coolant isn't in, just bill me for it and I will bring it back in later for the coolant change. I called the day before I was to pick it up, coolant not in. I searched the internet and found a dealer about an hour away who had the coolant, I retrieved the coolant and in the mean time called my dealer back and told him that I would have the coolant to him between 1 and 2 PM. He asked where I got if from and I said just a little work on the internet. He then asked what color it was and I told him the orange and the service manager responded, BRP has upgraded there coolant to a different color. I advised him that when I bought the spyder it had orange coolant in it, when you replaced the head gasket (which took 2 months and 2 days) you used orange coolant, so you can use it again. Service manager said that shouldn't be a problem. (Sure didn't want to wait for god knows how long just for a special color coolant) When I went to pick the bike up I was told they had to run an hour to another dealer to get a front tire as they only had one tire left when they got to my spyder, and this is after I offered to pay up front to make sure they had the tires for my work. Paid for the bike, got on it and it wouldn't start. Smelled gas, mechanic came out, gas leaking from gas line, will fix it first thing in the morning. I had a ride scheduled so a member of the sales team was going to put me on a brand new spyder so I could go on my ride, however the mechanic took my bike right in and got if fixed and this happened right at closing time. I get home and look the bill over and there is no charge for the automatic transmission filter, so back to the dealer a few days later to question them about this. They didn't change it, so I scheduled the bike a few days later as the mechanic said they have them in stock. Took the bike to get the atf changed and the mechanic said they didn't have any left. So, I told him that I just might have one at the house, so back to my home, look and I find the filter and take it back to the dealer and they changed if for me at no cost.
This has been my experience everytime I go to the dealer for service, and I'm feed up with this crap and that's why when I do sell my spyder, if I decide to get another bike, I will be going back to a Honda. I was told that Can Am doesn't even have a service rep that comes around to the service department to check on problems that the service department may be having, but they do of course have a rep that go's around to the sales department, so that tells me a lot about what Can Am thinks about service after the sale.
Soto any future spyder customers, you should be mechanically inclined, or have "lots" of patience as you will eventually need "patience". With all this being said, it's to bad the dealers are like this as I really enjoy my spyder but I do have my limits!!!

 

[Nightrider1]

Solutions to a bad dealer

I had so many problems with my dealer service department that for 3 years I got my bike serviced when I went on vacation. I found a lot f dealers outside the area that really cared about the consumer. Central Florida Powersports for one. I also got great service in Missouri and Tennessee. In Florida, when my ignition went bad they dropped what they were doing ordered the part and had me going in 48 hours. Unfortunately so many dealers don't care. The result of my bad service was that I had bad mouthed the dealership so bad that to get me back I and shut me up I got an excellent deal on a new bike. The question about where I get it serviced is still to be determined.

 

[gerald37]

I recently had a problem getting my 2014 RTS 28000 mile service completed. I scheduled it ahead of time and allowed them almost a full week to get it done. Front tires needed changing, I offered to go to parts and pay for them ahead of time so they would have them and was told it's not necessary, they have them in stock and this was a week before I actually dropped it off for service. The day I dropped it off for service I was told that customs has a hold on the coolant and BRP was hoping to get it released soon, service manager wanted me to know. I said fine, if the coolant isn't in, just bill me for it and I will bring it back in later for the coolant change. I called the day before I was to pick it up, coolant not in. I searched the internet and found a dealer about an hour away who had the coolant, I retrieved the coolant and in the mean time called my dealer back and told him that I would have the coolant to him between 1 and 2 PM. He asked where I got if from and I said just a little work on the internet. He then asked what color it was and I told him the orange and the service manager responded, BRP has upgraded there coolant to a different color. I advised him that when I bought the spyder it had orange coolant in it, when you replaced the head gasket (which took 2 months and 2 days) you used orange coolant, so you can use it again. Service manager said that shouldn't be a problem. (Sure didn't want to wait for god knows how long just for a special color coolant) When I went to pick the bike up I was told they had to run an hour to another dealer to get a front tire as they only had one tire left when they got to my spyder, and this is after I offered to pay up front to make sure they had the tires for my work. Paid for the bike, got on it and it wouldn't start. Smelled gas, mechanic came out, gas leaking from gas line, will fix it first thing in the morning. I had a ride scheduled so a member of the sales team was going to put me on a brand new spyder so I could go on my ride, however the mechanic took my bike right in and got if fixed and this happened right at closing time. I get home and look the bill over and there is no charge for the automatic transmission filter, so back to the dealer a few days later to question them about this. They didn't change it, so I scheduled the bike a few days later as the mechanic said they have them in stock. Took the bike to get the atf changed and the mechanic said they didn't have any left. So, I told him that I just might have one at the house, so back to my home, look and I find the filter and take it back to the dealer and they changed if for me at no cost.
This has been my experience everytime I go to the dealer for service, and I'm feed up with this crap and that's why when I do sell my spyder, if I decide to get another bike, I will be going back to a Honda. I was told that Can Am doesn't even have a service rep that comes around to the service department to check on problems that the service department may be having, but they do of course have a rep that go's around to the sales department, so that tells me a lot about what Can Am thinks about service after the sale.


Soto any future spyder customers, you should be mechanically inclined, or have "lots" of patience as you will eventually need "patience". With all this being said, it's to bad the dealers are like this as I really enjoy my spyder but I do have my limits!!!

It is just about unbelievable that these dealer's can think they can stay in business. I guess that is why there are very few Spyder's in my area. Like I stated in one of my other posts I wish they would let some of the motorcycle dealer's have the Spyder line alone and not have to take the full Can Am line. I do have one dealer about 150 miles away that is a Honda motorcycle dealer and Can Am dealer. He is in a small town and farming area so he does sell a number of four wheel vehicles. He is a small dealer and has several service people and one good Spyder service person. He will get you in and out as fast as he can. I called to have a key cut and programmed on a Monday and he had the key blank in stock and had a place to have it cut and said to be there at 9:00 AM Wednesday morning. I was there less than 1-1/2 hours. I am sure they don't sell a larger number of Spyder's but the service manager seems to know service is important. He apologize for taking so long but the place that cut the key cut the first key wrong. I don't know who paid for the first key but he just charged me the $96.00 what he had quoted me. I just wish this dealer was closer to me.

 

[SteveP]

Same experience

Thanks for all of your responses! I guess I need to clarify some things, I didn't want to make my post too long.

• I do have the codes and I did my due diligence to look them up (many thanks to this forum!) and the code indicates a sensor needs to be replaced, which is above my pay grade. However, the service department doesn't seem to care about what code or what I found and says they have to start by pulling the code themselves. In fact, when I called them on Wednesday they had zero notes on file on even what the problem was but it doesn't matter - the dealer said that they won't diagnose until they put it on the reader and putting the bike on the reader alone just to verify the code will take at least two weeks.
• I can't drive it because it keeps throwing the code and going into limp mode. The other closest dealer is ~50 miles away so I would have to trailer it there. However, my local dealership has an excellent Spyder mechanic (he's done work on it before) and I know he will do a great job once he gets to it. It's just giving up on prime riding season.
• And as far as me being mechanically inclined (fair question...but ouch!), I'm sure the jury is out on that and while I can throw a wrench a little, this bike is so computerized that I don't want to tinker with sensors. I did lots of work on my old Suzuki motorcycle but it was much simpler. I don't feel confident that I have the skills and experience to work on the Spyder myself for most issues because so many things can go wrong that I don't have tools (or brains or money) to fix.
• I initially went to this dealership to buy a Spyder but I had such a negative experience with their sales department that I bought from a dealership out of state that gave me great service. To sum it up - Maybe I'm old school but if I am wandering around your department looking at bikes, I don't think I need to go find you and ask for help. And when I do, you're texting on your phone, you act annoyed I bothered you and you don't even look up at me to answer my question... and keep on texting, I'm done. This dealership has many 5-star reviews, and I was in there more than once to try and work with them on slow business days and still bad or no service from sales, so I am going to go with there's something wrong with my face that makes them not want to work with me. The service department is another story - very good mechanics, hard working, honest, fair priced. Just horribly far behind. Obviously two different management styles in those two areas.
• gerald37, I also did not see this forum or read about this issue prior to buying it or I never would have bought it in the first place. Lots of great, honest info out there but it would have deterred me. I'm glad I got it, it's a great experience and so much fun to drive but like canamjhb said (and is spot on), service is the Achilles for this brand.

Thanks again for your input, I now know this is a common situation and if BRP wants to stay in business, they need to get more trained mechanics out in the industry to service their customers after the sale. Happy customers are repeat customers.

I went to the closest dealership to me initially to check out Spyders ( 99% sure to buy one ) I stopped in on my way home from work after doing some carpentry and had dust on my clothes etc ... I walked around for 20 minutes while salespeople ignored me until I finally approached one guy and mentioned I was interested in a Spyder , he just pointed to the showroom and looked back down to his phone and walked away . I approach another salesman and ask if they had any preowned units ... he just said a quick “ nope “ and walked away , so I looked for another 10 minutes at a new RSS and finally walked out and went to a different dealer who were very accommodating... and sold me my Spyder that day . Sometimes my dealership is a couple weeks backlogged as well but I like the idea that they have a good business who do a lot of sales and service a lot of clients ... and try to make everyone somewhat happy

 

[ARtraveler]

The Spyder isn't my first bike, so I guess I got used to things being a certain way from other shops. That said, the Spyder is great and I'm happy I got it... and happy I didn't listen to the forums before I bought it! Can't beat this forum for information on everything about the Spyder. I just need to get more time in the shop to not be intimidated by it.

Parts seem to be the main problem of late. I have been dealing with the same dealership for Spyders since 2008. Now, they stock little to nothing. Everything has to be ordered. For scheduled service, I always make appts. in advance. Tell them exactly what I know will be needed and ask them to order the stuff and let me know when it is in. Then I bring in the :spyder2:. Of late, they have screwed up on what to order (after they told me everything was in) and then want two to three days more to get the job done.

This dealer has always had my :spyder:'s in and out the same day. Bring in by opening (9:00 AM) and pick up after 4:00 PM. The last three times, now that I look back, they played the game and it was two to three days they had the :ani29: at a time.

I have been lucky that there have been no major repairs or warranty issues. If they had it a month or more I would lose almost a third of the good riding season. At that point, what's the purpose of even owning one???? For me, I have a spare and a two wheeler--so it looks like I will continue to "play the game" for a little longer.

Secondary rant over. :yes:

 

[iMotorsports]

It depends on the dealer and whats going on. We are lucky in the sense that we have 2 guys who can work full-time on Can-Ams. You have to remember there are a couple of things going on, if a dealer is selling units those units have to be prepped for delivery. So in the grand scheme, a new unit being sold is a high priority, and in a small shop its almost guaranteed to take precedence over regular service.

Now a smart shop that understands the long term is going to realize that you are a valuable asset, and their reputation is a valuable asset. They will do everything they can to make sure you are happy, because you come back on a typical 2-3 year cycle and buy another new Spyder (we hope). All of these plates are spinning, as well as other new units from other manufacturers being prepped and sold, used motorcycles being taken in, or going out. This is why the service department can be a great asset, or it can kill you. And why a great service manager is so valuable.

We have one of the largest service departments in the area with 4 full-size bays... and I mean car-size, and 3 more motorcycle size bays. And all the staff and resources that go with it and its still possible we would have to tell you two weeks. Its not common, but it happens.

 

[Captain Kidd]

Captain K … I have briefly been flicking through your history to find out without bothering you … Just how old is the bike? … It sounds fairly new so if so or at least purchased within recent times, isn't there a warranty period?

It's a 2012 RT SE5 with 11,000 miles on it, so it's out of manufacturer warranty but when I bought it used it included an aftermarket warranty for 2 years. I don't know if the sensor is included (the warranty is very specific, I'll have to look) but they have paid on some parts I needed when I first got it. Unfortunately getting the warranty blessing added another week to it being in the shop. I'd pay to have it fixed with or without warranty at this point, I would just like to be able to ride it and have confidence it won't break down.

I am amazed at some of these stories about dealerships. I do understand the seasonal need and I'm willing to be patient but I also don't want to have my bike sitting there for an entire month during prime riding season either. I have had to miss rides I have been planning for because the bike is in the shop. However, a forum member recommended another place to me privately and I am going to call around to the big shop that's less than 100 miles from here and see about getting a trailer.

I appreciate everyone's input, it's good to hear experiences from all sides. (Although spydercamp13, your situation takes the cake on bad service. That's terrible.)