Torque axle vs Torque nut

[ButterSmooth]

The axle nut on my RT is easily reached with a combination wrench. With a socket, not so much...
The muffler makes access difficult on the nut side. I experienced this with my last Indian and Harley Davidson. On the Harley I did a test by torquing from the axle end, and then checking the torque on the nut end. They were the same. I blindly transferred the technique to the Indian. Now we come to the RT. I wonder if anyone has any KNOWLEDGE (not speculation or SWAG) about a difference in tightening the axle this way. Is a different number required? Sure makes life easier...

 

[Bottomline2000]

The axle nut on my RT is easily reached with a combination wrench. With a socket, not so much...
The muffler makes access difficult on the nut side. I experienced this with my last Indian and Harley Davidson. On the Harley I did a test by torquing from the axle end, and then checking the torque on the nut end. They were the same. I blindly transferred the technique to the Indian. Now we come to the RT. I wonder if anyone has any KNOWLEDGE (not speculation or SWAG) about a difference in tightening the axle this way. Is a different number required? Sure makes life easier...

I would say you would not get an accurate torque reading torqueing the axle due to the drag it has on the frame. More than likely you would be below the actual target torque setting unless you an free up drag on the axle to get a proper reading. Just a thought from a guy who has turned a few wrenches..another thought would be to turn the axle without the nut tight and see what torque spec registers to turn the axle and if that is a relevant amount.

 

[EdMat]

Loosen the front muffler clamp, kick the rear of the muffler out and up, tighten clamp just enuff to hold it in place. Don't forget to put the muffler back into place when done and tighten clamp.

 

[PinkRosePetal]

The axle nut on my RT is easily reached with a combination wrench. With a socket, not so much...
The muffler makes access difficult on the nut side. I experienced this with my last Indian and Harley Davidson. On the Harley I did a test by torquing from the axle end, and then checking the torque on the nut end. They were the same. I blindly transferred the technique to the Indian. Now we come to the RT. I wonder if anyone has any KNOWLEDGE (not speculation or SWAG) about a difference in tightening the axle this way. Is a different number required? Sure makes life easier...

Tightening the axle head instead of the nut is fine. The drag of the axle within the hub is negligible.

There's a whole thread on this topic somewhere, you might find it if you do a search

 

[Bensonoid]

I don't have any knowledge, speculation, or swag about tightening from the axle end but I eliminated this problem by cutting down a deep 1/2 inch drive 6 point socket to a height that allows torquing from the nut end.

 

[canamjhb]

The problem can be resolved by getting an axel wrench that has a 36mm (if memory serves me correctly) on one end and a 1/2 inch square hole on the other end for attaching your torque wrench. You need to recalculate the torque values to account for the added length of your wrenches. There was a formula posted here a few years ago and I don't remember what it is. The axel wrench is heavy flat steel, 1/2 inch thick. Mine extends the total leverage by 3 and 1/2 inches and I wrote on it that 138#s = 166#s. But, do your own homework and don't trust my calculations. These axel wrenches are readily available on line and are not very expensive. Look up VW axel nut removal wrench. Good luck..... Jim

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The problem can be resolved by getting an axel wrench that has a 36mm (if memory serves me correctly) on one end and a 1/2 inch square hole on the other end for attaching your torque wrench. You need to recalculate the torque values to account for the added length of your wrenches. There was a formula posted here a few years ago and I don't remember what it is. The axel wrench is heavy flat steel, 1/2 inch thick. Mine extends the total leverage by 3 and 1/2 inches and I wrote on it that 138#s = 166#s. But, do your own homework and don't trust my calculations. These axel wrenches are readily available on line and are not very expensive. Look up VW axel nut removal wrench. Good luck..... Jim

That is what I do. It also allows you to achieve the required torque using a 150 lb-ft torque wrench. The longer version of the wrench lets you use a 120 lb-ft toque wrench. This is the one I use: https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Torque...7&sprefix=harley+davidson+axle,aps,271&sr=8-2

 

[FlyBoy2121]

I Guys

The foot-poud torque for rear axle nut his 166 foot-poud.
For those who are interested to know.

FlyBoy2121

 

[knobby]

Rear axle nut tightening torque???
I'm changing the rear tire and just looked at my PDF shop manual (Can-am). The subsection entitled "DRIVE BELT AND REAR WHEEL" shows the torque on page 5 (pg 622 on PDF) as 225 Nm / 166 ft-lbs, BUT 2 pages later it shows the same torque table that specifies 130 Nm / 96 ft-lbs ????????????????

 

[Snoking1127]

Here is how you can torque the nut. There is a formula to adjust for the extension. For my torque wrench it works out to 117 lb ft for the 166 on the nut.

https://www.amazon.com/Bentolin-Mot...SZT3/ref=dp_prsubs_3?pd_rd_i=B07W4YSZT3&psc=1

 

[south GA Farm Boy]

Axle nut tighten

The axle nut on my RT is easily reached with a combination wrench. With a socket, not so much...
The muffler makes access difficult on the nut side. I experienced this with my last Indian and Harley Davidson. On the Harley I did a test by torquing from the axle end, and then checking the torque on the nut end. They were the same. I blindly transferred the technique to the Indian. Now we come to the RT. I wonder if anyone has any KNOWLEDGE (not speculation or SWAG) about a difference in tightening the axle this way. Is a different number required? Sure makes life easier...

I would not do that on the axle end, do it on the nut end! A dealer did mine on the bolt end, and in a couple of weeks, I felt my rear end shifting on my Spyder, and the nut had come loose! You can order you a short socket and with a pull handle you can reach the nut end, and if not, you can order you a wrench to tighten it from Amazon! BE safe and don't take a change! I know 50 people will disagree with me, but mine came loose, and it was done by a dealer!

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

166 lb-ft is the right number. The other one was the torque for earlier models but changed around 2012 or '13 and didn't get changed in that part of the manual for a year or two. There has been a fair amount of discussion whether or not it matters which end you torque with the general consensus that torquing the left end will work OK, especially if you have problems with the axle creeping forward as you tighten the nut.

Get that torque multiplier wrench above. It makes it much easier to get the full torque.

In Farm Boy's case I suspect the axle was not torqued sufficiently, not that it was torqued by the wrong end.

 

[PMK]

Correct torque is 166 lbft with clean dry threads. Any lubricant or residue from inserting the axle and you will overtorque by at least 25%.

FWIW, tightening the nut is always best, unless there is no means to do so.

As you can see, all sorts of methods from toque adapters, to cut down sockets or even unfastening the muffler are suggested.

My suggestion, and what I do, find a small scrap section of 2x4 about 6” long. Without unfastening the muffler, push the muffler outboard slightly, then place the 2x4 section to help prop it outboard. Tighten the nut using a socket and quality torque wrench to your desired specs. Push the muffler outboard and remove the wooden block. Easy, fast, accurate and no special tools needed.

Works for me, but whatever others do is A OK by me.

BTW, in aviation work, it is very common to add rundown torque to a specified torque so as to ensure proper torque is reached. In the case of tightening the axle head, a smaller torque wrench should be utilized first to establishing rundown torque and add that to the actual 166 lbft torque. At a guess, it is likely between 5-8 lbft.

 

[ButterSmooth]

Correct torque is 166 lbft with clean dry threads. Any lubricant or residue from inserting the axle and you will overtorque by at least 25%.

That's interesting -- I've never heard it before. If I understand correctly, you're saying that at the rated torque the fastener will be squeezing 25% harder? So, if I coat the axle nut, threads and washer with anti-seize, I should only torque to 125'#, to achieve the same tightness (squeeze)?

 

[PMK]

That's interesting -- I've never heard it before. If I understand correctly, you're saying that at the rated torque the fastener will be squeezing 25% harder? So, if I coat the axle nut, threads and washer with anti-seize, I should only torque to 125'#, to achieve the same tightness (squeeze)?

In simple terms, the person accomplishing the task must know if the specified torque is a wet torque or dry torque. They also should know if run down torque needs to be added for correct torque to be reached.

Often, you see torques specified as “clean, dry threads with no damage”

As for 25% increase, I often base greased threads on that. As for anti seize products, it could be far greater than 25%. I utilize aviation products or similar and base my wet torque for the axle on experience with those products. Typically a reduction of 33% of specified dry torque. In aviation / aerospace, many, but not all critical fasteners are wet torqued to provide accurate repeatable torques with minimal influence of other friction factors. Stretch torque is truly best, but often not practical.

Ever wonder why folks strip out drain plug threads in the cases. Using a dry torque spec on wet threads. Next time you remove your axle, verify the threaded section is not stretched. If the nut is unable to easily travel full threads, or a thread pitch gage does not correctly lay, the axle should be scrapped.

The true downside of over torquing a Spyder axle is that the adjusters are cheap pot metal and are likely to crush. This will also slightly crush swingarm if excessive.

 

[Possible]

That's interesting -- I've never heard it before. If I understand correctly, you're saying that at the rated torque the fastener will be squeezing 25% harder? So, if I coat the axle nut, threads and washer with anti-seize, I should only torque to 125'#, to achieve the same tightness (squeeze)?

Don't forget when you're tightening to a stated setting that setting is while the nut is being tightened, not when you put the wrench on the nut and read
the torque reading. If the nut doesn't move, you've not got the actual torque setting, due to the friction of the nut/bolt thread interference. If you lessen
the amount of interference by lubing the threads, then you need to lower the actual torque readings. Putting a torque wrench on a stationary nut/bolt
and seeing, for example, 50 lb.ft doesn't mean that nut/bolt is tightened to 50 lb. ft., it just means that it will take more than 50 lb.ft to initially start the
bolt/nut turning.

I've always heard 15-20% torque reduction with lubed threads.

 

[ButterSmooth]

In simple terms, the person accomplishing the task must know if the specified torque is a wet torque or dry torque. They also should know if run down torque needs to be added for correct torque to be reached.

Often, you see torques specified as “clean, dry threads with no damage”

As for 25% increase, I often base greased threads on that. As for anti seize products, it could be far greater than 25%. I utilize aviation products or similar and base my wet torque for the axle on experience with those products. Typically a reduction of 33% of specified dry torque. In aviation / aerospace, many, but not all critical fasteners are wet torqued to provide accurate repeatable torques with minimal influence of other friction factors. Stretch torque is truly best, but often not practical.

Ever wonder why folks strip out drain plug threads in the cases. Using a dry torque spec on wet threads. Next time you remove your axle, verify the threaded section is not stretched. If the nut is unable to easily travel full threads, or a thread pitch gage does not correctly lay, the axle should be scrapped.

The true downside of over torquing a Spyder axle is that the adjusters are cheap pot metal and are likely to crush. This will also slightly crush swingarm if excessive.

This might be the source of some of my problems, specifically the change in alignment going from 90'# to 166'#. I can feel the swing arm crush during this tightening and that's when the alignment changes. The adjusters don't get loose and there is no measurable or observable movement of any alignment related parts, but the alignment changes. So, you are saying that the final torque should be around 110'# with anti-seize applied. At 166'# I was afraid of galling the threads and to help prevent tightening from moving the axle, I applied anti-seize. Thanks for the detailed reply.

 

[Eckhard]

There are Android phone apps(Torque Wrench is the name) to calculate the new torque applied at the wrench when an extension is used. Maybe apple has them too.

 

[Eckhard]

If you use the adapter at right angles from above the axle you will be pushing the axle forward when u tighten it and taking the slack out of the adjuster.