Tie rod left side bottoms out when removing toe in

[stevehendo34]

2008 Spider GS I just bought 19,000 miles.
I kinda goofed and bought it without looking well at tire wear or driving it above 50 mph.
Got it on the highway and was getting some wobble at 55+ mph.
I looked better at the tires, the left has outside wear and obvious toe in.
I set up a jig to get alignment close, and yes it was ~1/2 inch off.
Built the jig with help of a mill and adjustable screws on top of horizontal members of the jig.
I looked at tie rod on right tire and saw 5 threads out of lock nut.
I decided to start there and after losing the lock nut on the left tie rod adjustment I began to adjust the toe in out of this tire.
Oddly, after a few turns the tie rod bottomed out with 3 more threads showing than on the right side.
The toe in improved by 1/4 inch but would not adjust any further, it's like the tie rod is too long since it bottoms out.
Locked the adgustment down and test drove it. The wobble is much better, actually mostly gone.
There is definitely something goofy - the minimum number of threads showing on that tie rod is 8 while the no tire wear side is set at 5 threads.
I'm sure that if I could adjust the bad side to ~5 threads the toe in would be nearly perfect.
A laser alignment is not going to adjust toe on a rod that is set to it's minimum length.
Bought some new tires and will try again to get it close with jig.

Anyone have comments on why I can't adjust the left side toe in enough and right side threads go much farther into the end of the tie rod? Isn't the spec called for 0 toe in on both sides like most road cars?
Camber on both front wheels are nearly identical, even though there is no adjustment.

Telling me to take it to a certified Can-Am mechanic will not be helpful!

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

2008 Spider GS I just bought 19,000 miles.
I kinda goofed and bought it without looking well at tire ware or driving it above 50 mph.
Got it on the highway and was getting some wobble at 55+ mph.
I looked better at the tires, the left has outside ware and obvious toe in.
I set up a jig to get alignment close, and yes it was ~1/2 inch off.
Build the jig with help of a mill and adjustable screws on top of horizontal members of the jig.
I looked at tie rod on right tire and saw 5 threads out of lock nut.
I decided to start there and after losing the lock nut on the left tie rod adjustment I began to adjust the toe in out of this tire.
Oddly after a few turns the tie rod bottomed out with 3 more treads showing than on the right good side.
The tow in improved by 1/4 inch but would not adjust any further, it's like the tie rod is too long since it bottoms out.
Loocked the adgustment down and test drove it. The wobble is much better, actually mostly gone.
There is defiantly somthing goofy the minimum number of threads showing on that tie rod is 8 while the no tire ware side is set at 5 threads.
I'm sure is I could adjust the bad side to ~5 threads the toe in would be nearly perfect.
A laser alignment is not going to adjust toe on a rod that is set to it's minimum length.
Bought some new tires and will try again to get it close with jig.

Anyone have comments why I can't adjust the left side toe in enough and right side threads go much farther into the end of the tie rod?
Isn't the spec called for 0 toe in on both sides like most road cars?
Camber on both front wheels are nearly identical, even though there is no adjustments.

Telling me to take it to a certified Can-Am mechanic will not be helpfull!

Correct about the Camber ... there is no adjustment for doing that ... It should have a bit of TOE in but I can't remember exactly how much .... it's been posted here before - someone will chime in .... I can't guess why your threads are bottoming out .... out-of balance will cause vibrations .... are they still Crapenda tires ???? .... because they may not ever Balance !!! .... good luck .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Peter Aawen]

Given what you've told us, it's likely the steering isn't centered &/or it's skewed heavily to one side, possibly because the DPS isn't centered or at least one arm/tie-rod is bent - and as a result you've got everything adjusted waay out to one way &/or mainly on one side to correct that, instead of it being evenly adjusted out using both sides of each tie rod! :lecturef_smilie:

To sort it, you'll probably hafta back out the tie rod end that's bottoming out until it's basically in the middle of its thread range, then work your way across the other end of that tie rod; then do the same on the other side; and finally make sure the DPS is properly centered.... and that last bit may well take BUDS, so it might need a visit to someone who has BUDS & knows how to use it! hyea:

Oh, & like Mike said above, you REALLY want to have some toe-in! With zero toe-in, as the suspension flexes & extends/compresses it'll range anywhere thru A LOT of toe out to a little toe in and you'll end up with really light & twitchy steering that wanders aall over the place as it dives out in response to whichever toe-ed out wheel has the most load on it at that given moment! :yikes: . If you start with a little toe in, it'll never get too far into the toe-out realm so you'll never get into the 'diving off to one side or the other', and the steering will tend to 'self-center' instead of wandering all over the place! :thumbup:

 

[PMK]

Deleted

 

[stevehendo34]

2008 GS manual transmission has DPS steering? it dose not even seem to have power steering?
In 2008 did they even have laser alignment?
They are balanced OEM tires, I ordered some 165/65 R14 Federals today, no 6000 mile tires for me.
There is no wander of vehical just minor death wobble 55-65, actually that's gone from me adjusting left to it's limit.
The reason I left the right alone there is no outside wear on that tire.
Somebody defiantly shortened the push rod on the bad side left to decrease toe in because there was very little adjustment left to be had.
If the bell crank is centered, I'll check, who cares were the bars are. I didn't even know the steering wasn't a rack or steering box--helpful!
Push/Tie rods are not bent, stearing and joints have no play.
Saw someone was setting toe in at 1 1/4 inch for 220 lbs rider load not 0--helpfull again.

I'll set both adjuster to mid-point on both sides and try again with the new tires work each one to see if I can get correct toe in on both sides. Then get a couple of my fat friends to sit on it and see how close o zero it gets.

Hopfully I can get it close so a dealer won't try and sell me a bunch of suspension parts as well as a final alignment.
Difficult machine to work, with all that skin
It seems odd that front alignment is touchy since there are no camber and caster adjustments. I can see where you wouldn't want the rear tire to turn the bike, but on a normal motorcycle it is just frame aligned.

Thanks

 

[Peter Aawen]

Yep, it's a Spyder, it has DPS, altho admittedly, the 2008 version is not as good as they became later; but it's still there! :thumbup:

The laser alignment is just the system by which they actually do the alignment, so yeah, it's not what they had back in 2008 that's at issue, it's just that the very best tools & system in the hands of a skilled operator to do the job these days IS that laser alignment! :thumbup:

The OEM tires are notoriously of poor quality, and they're renowned for doing dodgy things including causing issues like this, which is why so many of us toss them ASAP & fit 'real' car tires then run them at appropriate (lower) pressures suitable for the (lighter) load; but seriously, if anyone's adjusted just ONE side tie-rod then they've probably stuffed at least some part of your alignment anyway - I suspect that whoever had it before you did that pretty conclusively! When doing alignments, you need to center the steering first, then unless it's purely a one-sided issue (which isn't really all that likely, unless you've got a bent arm in there! ) you should usually adjust EACH SIDE EQUALLY to make the necessary total steering alignment correction... If you do only the one side without a bent arm or other one-sided issue present, then you'll very likely bottom out one tie-rod end AND cause your DPS centering to be skewed as well :gaah:

And if that's the case, then you providing any steering input, even straight ahead, will always be fighting with what the DPS wants to do as well! And if your bell crank is centered and the bars aren't, then the DPS centering is almost certainly messed up, at least a little. And THAT means you are going to hafta get it plugged into BUDS, which probably means a visit to ma dealer, or at least find someone who has BUDS & knows how to use it!

 

[stevehendo34]

Thanks helpfull
I found the shop manual on this form.
It says to start with 12mm of thread on both sides.
I suppose one could use BUDs to check DPS at zero output to try and center the stearing since there is no output there.
Looking into getting 529-036018 Can Protical interface vehical to computer and cable, and BUDs software, for this and future service--$700 includes software.
Old alignment used a bar and laser pointer to the back wheel, I'll have to create one in the machine shop to allien front to back--doughtfull undertaking.

Manual seems to indicate set it toe out .5mm unloaded with tires removed page 454.
Video on YouTube on new laser alignment tool seems to indicate 1 1/4 inch toe in loaded after adjustment.
This is confusing to me.

I know how to work on modern cars with pretty much these systems and bidirectional scan tools so BUDs should not be a huge learning curve.
I very seldom use service centers to work on my vehicals, (many), if I did I would soon be broke.

Thanks I should have realized the 2008 is a modern computer controlled vehical with modern electronic controls to most mechanical operations.

 

[cptjam]

If the tie rods are not bent, you can remove the tie rod end from the wheel, center, re-attach. With the handlebars straight, measure forward 75” from the center hub, and 75 aft. Use a shoebox as a target, if you are using a laser. The difference between the front distance apart to the rear distance apart should be about an inch. Afterward, get it on BUDS, and reset the steering sensor and the torque sensor. Call me if you still need help. Joe

 

[stevehendo34]

Thanks Joe
I just looked at tie rod replacement procedure do to your input.
There it told me start with 12mm of exposed thread on each side before alignment. This might help my alignment attempt a bunch.
I'll kinda use your directions using a flat alignment bar that clamps to front and back of the frame.
The thing I never got in my head is that the front wheels should be aligned independently to the frame.

In Joe's thread I asume 1/2 inch diff on each wheel.
Oddly GS manual on page 452 says 0 toe +- .5mm
Performance vehicles may run zero front toe or even some toe-in for a better response to steering inputs. The wear on the tires is marginally increased as the tires are under slight side slip conditions when the steering is set straight ahead, specs are usual described as angles and lengths calculated.

I'll have the sensors reset with Software or pay somone to do it.

Going to wait until I get my new Federal car tires to finish up.

 

[stevehendo34]

Crazy
The new Federal car tires made it easy to check toe angle, and dang dose the Spider ride perfect. Crapenda tires perfect description.

I just reset the left side I changed back to the original # of exposed threads/length it was when I started and did my funky backyard alignment check. There was like 1/8 inch toe in on both sides. I did check with the dealer about the Lazer thing. They sell all kinds of skiedoes, boats, motorcycles and ATVs. They didn’t have a clue about what I was talking about and after talking to the mechanic they said they would rope it off and set it for $130. Reset the sensors, what sensors and how do you do that the dealer machanc said.

They didn’t even know the difference between a Spider and a Ryker. They could care less if you wanted them to work on it. These Power Sports centers like Polaris use are worthless unless they have a mechanic dedicated to each brand of vehical. Very few do! I wonder where they send them to get fixed after they sell you a new one. More likely who do they action them off to? What a joke the other Polaris dealer in Madison isn't any better.

 

[Mikey]

Crazy
The new Federal car tires made it easy to check toe angle, and dang dose the Spider ride perfect. Crapenda tires perfect description.

I just reset the left side I changed back to the original # of exposed threads/length it was when I started and did my funky backyard alignment check. There was like 1/8 inch toe in on both sides. I did check with the dealer about the Lazer thing. They sell all kinds of skiedoes, boats, motorcycles and ATVs. They didn’t have a clue about what I was talking about and after talking to the mechanic they said they would rope it off and set it for $130. Reset the sensors, what sensors and how do you do that the dealer machanc said.

They didn’t even know the difference between a Spider and a Ryker. They could care less if you wanted them to work on it. These Power Sports centers like Polaris use are worthless unless they have a mechanic dedicated to each brand of vehical. Very few do! I wonder where they send them to get fixed after they sell you a new one. More likely who do they action them off to? What a joke the other Polaris dealer in Madison isn't any better.

Run away from those fools!!! You'd be better to do it yourself, OH wait, you did!!!:yikes: