The CB Saga Continues -- Seriously, NOT FIXED YET!

[Spyder_Cowgirl]

Remember this thread?
https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?107345-CB-Trouble-AGAIN-VENT-and-Dealer-BLACK-EYE
Well ….. two additional dealers later and multiple parts replaced … AND IT IS STILL NOT FIXED! nojoke Briefly:

Dealer number one (Freedom Powersports in Decatur, TX) -- replaced the entertainment harness, the CB, the radio (kept getting locked out of everything), and the heated grips (damaged by the original dealer). Additionally, they performed some diagnostic testing at BRP's request … all came back clean. Oh … and J&M provided a new antenna under warranty as well. After all this, there is still too much static on receive.

At the end of all this, they let me know they were dropping the Spyder line because they have no room for the required Ryker display. That is another story …. got an EXCELLENT deal on an F3 Limited … will update y'all on that when I have some decent pictures.

Enter dealer number two (Freedom Powersports in Weatherford, TX) -- did their own diagnostic tests as well as some more (grounds) requested by BRP. Decided to take a closer look at the antenna connector on the CB as I noticed it wanted to spin when threading the cable onto it. Well, once they pulled the CB cover …. found a broken wire inside the CB. So, new CB was ordered and installed. I provided a headset that I was not using and they actually had another MC in house with a CB, so they did some moderate testing (not enough, obviously). On the way home, reception was crystal clear … but hubby complained that I was breaking up on transmit. Since he was just using a hand held, I passed it off to a problem with it (I should NOT have done this). Once we got out and did some real riding …. BOTH transmit and receive are bad (most of the time). Additionally, it gets worse when the road conditions deteriorate. On a, relatively, smooth road things are pretty good (not as good as they could be, but at least we can understand each other). On a bumpy road …. neither one of us can understand a thing.

So, I think we are left with only two possibilities of parts that have not yet been replaced:

• The compressor, or some other suspension component (remember, this all went south shortly after the compressor was replaced).
• There is a control module in the main console that acts as a "traffic cop" for all the various inputs and decides which one gets passed through the headset (at least this is what BRP tells me).

I spoke with Lamont about this in September at SITO -- and his advice was twofold:

• Go back to the last thing changed / fixed before the failure (the heated grips and compressor).
• Simply pulling the fuse / relay on the suspension does not disrupt the ground loop. So, for example, if the ground is bad in the compressor …. then it would have to be unplugged from the main harness before it is really out of the picture.

As the heated grips were replaced (at least the left one was) … it was clearly damaged and not working; I am so hoping that the compressor itself has bad grounding. We shall see.

To BRPs credit … my original warranty ran out last August (BEST purchased prior to that); but NONE of this has gone on the extended and I don't expect it will. I am also in direct contact with high level BRP technician and I am sure he is just as frustrated with this as I am. I do think he will see it through to the end.

Will keep you posted ….. Ann

 

[DGoebel]

Ann, thanks for the followup, I've been following this since you started posting about it, it's the final audio/communication option I might take for long distance riding.

 

[LeftCoast]

Nice recap Ann. Sorry for the nightmare.

 

[ARtraveler]

Hoping you can get this situation fixed.

 

[Spyder_Cowgirl]

Update -- Waiting for Additional Owner Test

Okay … Here's the latest update. Have talked with the tech guy at BRP this past week and before taking the RT back down to Weatherford, TX he wants one more test done. Pull both F5 (load shedding for horn, compressor, and heated grips) and the suspension relay (I think this is R4, but will have to check). Then ride and see if there is any improvement at all. I told him this may have to wait a week or so as I had foot surgery 2/1/19 (right foot, have new joint in my big toe) as I can't get my motorcycle boots on yet. It the test doesn't yield positive results …. it sounded like it might be time to look at replacing the main harness:banghead::banghead:. I guess this sort of makes sense, in a way, since I have had CB troubles from the onset of purchase (installed as part of the sale). If it comes down to that, that's going to take some time!

Sure am glad I bought that F3! At least if the RT is in Weatherford for several weeks, I can still ride …. Will let you know …. Ann

 

[Easy Rider]

Not that it will help your present situation any but some information for the future:

My CB works well, with a range similar to other GoldWings and Harleys. About a mile to mile and a half.

BUT when I first start out each day, there is some static mixed in with the voices on receive.
Not enough to be a problem really but noticeable.
This goes away after riding 30 miles or so.

I am assuming that it is noise produced by the "alternator" equipment while it is charging at a higher rate.

I am not going to try and get mine "fixed" because it really is not a significant problem.

Good luck with your quest......and your foot.

 

[Spyder_Cowgirl]

Thanks for the reply Easy Rider … note that the CB in my 2012 RT and the 3rd unit installed in the 2016 RT worked flawlessly. I never had any trouble with the one in the 2012 and the whole thing went south on the 2016 when the compressor was replaced and a ground strap left loose -- lord knows what it fried besides the radio and CB. Or, perhaps, there is something fundamentally wrong with the compressor / install and I have been fighting that all along.

The foot is doing well, pretty sure I can now get my boots on and might be able to take a ride tomorrow (hope so, anyway).

Will update when I know more …. Ann

 

[stevencovert]

Just a thought to toss out!

It's a long shot, but there may be several "connections" between your battery ground terminal and that part of the frame. I know CB's are notorious for needing certain lengths of antenna cable and the like.

My 2008GS had the random "stick in gear" problem that BRP tried to address with a small ground wire to the coil. Even shining up the metal under the bolts didn't work - still stuck in gear. Being an electrical engineer I thought of a fix to end all fixes - run a heavy ground directly from the battery terminal to the coil. I got like a 8AWG to 10AWG heavy wire and terminals from the hardware store. The wire has tons of strands, making it a good grounding cable.
So far so good! What makes me think of your situation is that maybe it is related to mine - some poor grounding between the battery terminal to junction to frame to (whatever else) finally to that point where your braided ground is bolted. I tested only a couple ohms before my modification (from coil bolt to battery terminal), and absolute 0 after. The terminal for the battery was a lot larger, I just stripped off insulation and folded the strands down onto the insulation below, to "fatten it up". Crimping that terminal was no fun.

Maybe try:

1. Bolting the braid to a fat ground cable run directly to the battery terminal (tape it up, do not ground on the frame - run right to battery).
2. Adding the fat ground at the frame point under same bolt as the CB ground.

One enhances the frame ground, the other ties the CB ground directly to the battery. In terms of electrical noise, the heavy ground cable directly on the battery reduces it considerably. A battery is essentially a infinite capacitor, which can cancel noise spikes. This long shot won't work if the CB radio itself is getting noise from the harness somewhere, or something radiating close by hitting it directly.

Oh the other overkill thing I did on the coil job was to add a small metal plate over the coils that was connected to the ground, to act as a shield. Not sure if the CB could be mocked up in a similar fashion I would look around at the hardware store for a small metal plate, hot glue it on the CB, and run a wire to the braid (or whatever ground wire). I know it sounds out there, but it finally fixed the noise on my transmission control unit!

Good luck!
Steve

 

[Jetfixer]

From what you describe, it sounds to me like your original problem is with the antenna. The antenna needs a "ground plane". This is not the same as the vehicle ground. A ground plane for a CB radio antenna is the metal surface required below the antenna. In mobile applications, the vehicle body/frame acts as the ground plane (reflective unit). The metal surface enables the signal generated when transmitting to reflect off the surface and travel into the atmosphere.

An antenna ground plane is not to be confused with an electrical ground. A typical mobile CB antenna does not transmit horizontally, it radiates in a downward pattern. A metal surface (the larger and flatter, the better) is required underneath the CB antenna to launch the signal out into the atmosphere. Without an adequate ground plane surface the signal will not travel out into the atmosphere which results in limited transmission range. Damage to your CB radio may also occur if you do not have a proper ground plane because this generally causes a high SWR (standing wave ratio) and the signal may back feed into the transceiver, causing internal damage to your radio. (It sounds like you've already had this happen). It is worth noting that a poor ground plane or radiating surface may not affect radio reception. (You've said that your problem was with transmission more than reception). You may still receive transmissions from other radios with or without a ground plane. Basically, you can receive transmissions on a clothes hanger!

It is vital to understand that you must check and set your antenna (tune your antenna) to ensure it is functioning properly.

If you have a fiberglass vehicle or boat you will need a No Ground Plane Antenna. In No Ground Plane systems, the coax shield is used for counterpoise (substitute for the ground connection).
Since the CB antenna on a Spyder is mounted to the plastic rear body, there is not sufficient metal to be the antenna ground plane.

 

[Spyder_Cowgirl]

Just a thought to toss out!

It's a long shot, but there may be several "connections" between your battery ground terminal and that part of the frame. I know CB's are notorious for needing certain lengths of antenna cable and the like.

My 2008GS had the random "stick in gear" problem that BRP tried to address with a small ground wire to the coil. Even shining up the metal under the bolts didn't work - still stuck in gear. Being an electrical engineer I thought of a fix to end all fixes - run a heavy ground directly from the battery terminal to the coil. I got like a 8AWG to 10AWG heavy wire and terminals from the hardware store. The wire has tons of strands, making it a good grounding cable.
So far so good! What makes me think of your situation is that maybe it is related to mine - some poor grounding between the battery terminal to junction to frame to (whatever else) finally to that point where your braided ground is bolted. I tested only a couple ohms before my modification (from coil bolt to battery terminal), and absolute 0 after. The terminal for the battery was a lot larger, I just stripped off insulation and folded the strands down onto the insulation below, to "fatten it up". Crimping that terminal was no fun.

Maybe try:

1. Bolting the braid to a fat ground cable run directly to the battery terminal (tape it up, do not ground on the frame - run right to battery).
2. Adding the fat ground at the frame point under same bolt as the CB ground.

One enhances the frame ground, the other ties the CB ground directly to the battery. In terms of electrical noise, the heavy ground cable directly on the battery reduces it considerably. A battery is essentially a infinite capacitor, which can cancel noise spikes. This long shot won't work if the CB radio itself is getting noise from the harness somewhere, or something radiating close by hitting it directly.

Oh the other overkill thing I did on the coil job was to add a small metal plate over the coils that was connected to the ground, to act as a shield. Not sure if the CB could be mocked up in a similar fashion I would look around at the hardware store for a small metal plate, hot glue it on the CB, and run a wire to the braid (or whatever ground wire). I know it sounds out there, but it finally fixed the noise on my transmission control unit!

Good luck!
Steve

Steve … interesting thoughts on grounding, and I will definitely, discuss with BRP. The ground that was left loose when the compressor was replaced is, no doubt, what caused that CB to get toasted … little did we know that they had also damaged the antenna so the CB was effectively used without an antenna as well.

Thank you …. Ann

 

[Spyder_Cowgirl]

From what you describe, it sounds to me like your original problem is with the antenna. The antenna needs a "ground plane". This is not the same as the vehicle ground. A ground plane for a CB radio antenna is the metal surface required below the antenna. In mobile applications, the vehicle body/frame acts as the ground plane (reflective unit). The metal surface enables the signal generated when transmitting to reflect off the surface and travel into the atmosphere.

An antenna ground plane is not to be confused with an electrical ground. A typical mobile CB antenna does not transmit horizontally, it radiates in a downward pattern. A metal surface (the larger and flatter, the better) is required underneath the CB antenna to launch the signal out into the atmosphere. Without an adequate ground plane surface the signal will not travel out into the atmosphere which results in limited transmission range. Damage to your CB radio may also occur if you do not have a proper ground plane because this generally causes a high SWR (standing wave ratio) and the signal may back feed into the transceiver, causing internal damage to your radio. (It sounds like you've already had this happen). It is worth noting that a poor ground plane or radiating surface may not affect radio reception. (You've said that your problem was with transmission more than reception). You may still receive transmissions from other radios with or without a ground plane. Basically, you can receive transmissions on a clothes hanger!

It is vital to understand that you must check and set your antenna (tune your antenna) to ensure it is functioning properly.

If you have a fiberglass vehicle or boat you will need a No Ground Plane Antenna. In No Ground Plane systems, the coax shield is used for counterpoise (substitute for the ground connection).
Since the CB antenna on a Spyder is mounted to the plastic rear body, there is not sufficient metal to be the antenna ground plane.

Yes, I know the original problem is with the Antenna and it has been replaced (under warranty) by J&M … it is tuned and we have checked it with our SWR meter, so THAT issue is resolved. With the J&M antenna upgrade, the mount is now all metal and it is properly grounded as well. The CB stopped working properly after the compressor was replaced, the heated grips repaired, and an antenna ground left loose ….. it has not worked properly since. Since the antenna has been eliminated as an issue, we are down to looking at the "last thing worked on before failure" (the compressor and / or heated grips) and the main harness.

My husband has thought, all along, this machine was an electrical lemon as we have no explanation for why two CBs failed prior to the third unit installation (that worked quite well … at least until the compressor replacement).

Other than these constant issues with the CB, the machine is a joy to ride …. so, as long as BRP doesn't give up on finding a complete fix, I won't either and I will keep the machine well after it is all repaired.

Thanks for the reply …. Ann