Suspension

[Rednaxs60]

Have been reading other suspension threads and felt the need to theorize again. Just a few more thoughts on this issue.

That said, if you're prepared to move your body around more as you corner, maybe even pulling in hard on the inside bar & getting down to kiss your wrist while hanging your tail off the inside of the seat on tight corners and so work hard to keep your weight in & down going into & thru the corners, thereby limiting the RT's body roll & yaw, you juuust might find that you can get around the harder/tighter corners somewhat quicker with no Nanny intervention than you do when just sitting on the seat & expecting the bike to do all the work for you will allow; but it does get to be fairly hard work pretty quickly, especially on the RT's - fun tho, & a great work-out, thighs, glutes, & upper body especially! hyea:

Rode snowmobiles a lot and my favourite(s) were always two up machines even though most of my riding was solo. Great ride quality, hauled lots of gear for trips. Used to play with the solo machines on the trails, did exactly what Peter mentions in the quote. I could "dance" with the solo machines for approximately 30 minutes, then needed down time.

The Spyder RT is the same, a big machine that needs a lot of attention and if you're going to play, there may/will be a personal cost in energy required. The RT can be made to suit a person's riding profile/style, but it takes time and a want to do the changes necessary.

As PMK has mentioned, and I think a lot will agree, the Spyder riding profile dynamics are a combination of many factors. The main factor that leads these changes are the front shocks with everything else in support. The rear shock doesn't contribute much to the roll/lean aspect that is the issue in this thread.

In the snowmobile world, the closest comparison to the Spyder world, there are those that accept the status quo and ride quite often and enjoy the OEM suspension setup, in other words they have adapted their riding style to accommodate any idiosyncrasies that are inherent with an OEM suspension setup and ride quality. Nothing wrong with this because it is their choice. This is similar to the Spyder world, same concept.

The next iteration and evolution of riding styles are those who do the minimal upgrades to get some performance improvements, then use themselves to try and accomplish more. Lot of work to get to a more spirited ride.

The final evolution are the riders that want to incorporate several suspension upgrades to achieve the best ride quality and performance that can be achieved. For the Spyder these are tires, sway bar, and shocks.

Straight running is not generally an issue. It's the sweeping and sharper cornering, the trip around a roundabout, exiting a highway and taking on a cloverleaf, riding a twisty road that is riddled with dips and dives, and lastly - trying to keep the on board electronics from spoiling our fun.

Tires are a first start. Good, "premium" tires may not always be the ticket to an improvement. Less expensive tires can be more supple, softer and respond better to a more aggressive riding style. May have to change tires more often, but so be it. A beefier sway bar that is a good assist in sweepers and sharper corners, but not capable of handling corners that invoke the dreaded "Nanny".

This brings us to the last, but IMHO the most important aspect of front end suspension tuning, the shocks.

You can tune your suspension to achieve your riding profile just by playing with the shocks and shock springs. Tires and a beefier sway bar can assist in achieving your goals and should be considered as a must do to complement the work you will be putting into selecting and tuning the shocks.

The front and rear suspension components should be considered as a unit, and when one is changed, the other should be to compensate for this. Beefing up the rear suspension so as not to bottom out when riding can overpower an OEM front suspension. The reverse is true as well.

The rear suspension is fairly simple to change and achieve a good ride quality and riding profile. Have found enough information on this forum to submit that for an RT, a rear OEM shock with a retrofitted 600 lb/in shock spring should be a change and go ride for most of us. The OEM shock has no preload or naming adjustments, although preload parts and pieces can probably be found for this purpose. There is no way to adapt any damping adjustments to a shock that does not already have this feature.

Front shocks are similar, there are preload adapters for OEM shocks that do not have this function. We must realize that preload has one function even though it is misused to achieve others, to set the ride height of the platform. Once set for the riding profile, off to the next issue.

The next issue with the front shocks is the correct shock spring for the riding profile, weight of the platform and rider(s). Choosing the correct shock spring is an iterative process because everyone has a different sense of what it is to be achieved, and how this "feels".

Once you have settled on the appropriate shock spring rate that achieves your aim, you need to assess if the shock is capable of providing the appropriate shock spring control in compression and rebound. If the shock that you have achieves this aim, ride it like you stole it. If not, a further search is required for a shock that can support and control the shock spring selected to achieve your ride quality and profile.

Shock manufacturers that have ventured into the Spyder suspension upgrade world are a great boon to our search for the holy grail of Spyder suspension upgrade(s). All manufacturers understand the same suspension principles, but it how these principles are applied that may differ.

The Spyder suspension world is a very small part of these aftermarket shock suppliers. A person's riding profile may fit into a specific range that a supplier has found to need "X" components. Most people will be satisfied with this approach and no further work or trialing will be required.

Then there are those that want and need that illusive setup that requires a lot of change and trialing. I admit to being one of these people.

I am pleased with the suspension upgrade(s) to date. New tires, beefier sway bar, and very good shocks.

My pet peeve, shock springs to achieve the ride quality and performance I'm willing to accept is an ongoing project. The correct shock spring not only improves ride quality and performance, but is necessary for setting the correct preload and not using preload to compensate for an inadequate shock spring rate.

I also require damping adjustment(s), be it rebound, compression or both. Properly selected shock springs and low speed rebound damping should be the only additional shock adjustment needed.

It has been mentioned that rebound damping by some manufacturers is a "feel" not a specific shock performance issue. This is very much a myth. Shock preload if applicable is set first for motorcycle sag, or ride height. Rebound damping, the next most common shock adjustment, is to set the shock spring control such that the shock when compressed returns to its static position with no or a slight overshoot. This is a visual setting and not to be confused with a setting that is derived from a "feeling".

Setting the rebound damping as per the shock industry standard may not give you the ride quality and performance that you envision. To this end, having a shock that has a considerable number of rebound adjustments is required to fine tune the shock to your requirements.

Once I settle on the appropriate shock spring for my requirements, I will be discussing the shock valving to determine if it is adequate for the shock spring selected.

Having mentioned the above, keeping cost(s) under wraps is an issue and is a key consideration. Now that I have muddied the waters that much more, go forth and have fun, and remember - lives too short, eat desert firsthyea:

 

[PMK]

Have been reading other suspension threads and felt the need to theorize again. Just a few more thoughts on this issue.



Rode snowmobiles a lot and my favourite(s) were always two up machines even though most of my riding was solo. Great ride quality, hauled lots of gear for trips. Used to play with the solo machines on the trails, did exactly what Peter mentions in the quote. I could "dance" with the solo machines for approximately 30 minutes, then needed down time.

The Spyder RT is the same, a big machine that needs a lot of attention and if you're going to play, there may/will be a personal cost in energy required. The RT can be made to suit a person's riding profile/style, but it takes time and a want to do the changes necessary.

As PMK has mentioned, and I think a lot will agree, the Spyder riding profile dynamics are a combination of many factors. The main factor that leads these changes are the front shocks with everything else in support. The rear shock doesn't contribute much to the roll/lean aspect that is the issue in this thread.

In the snowmobile world, the closest comparison to the Spyder world, there are those that accept the status quo and ride quite often and enjoy the OEM suspension setup, in other words they have adapted their riding style to accommodate any idiosyncrasies that are inherent with an OEM suspension setup and ride quality. Nothing wrong with this because it is their choice. This is similar to the Spyder world, same concept.

The next iteration and evolution of riding styles are those who do the minimal upgrades to get some performance improvements, then use themselves to try and accomplish more. Lot of work to get to a more spirited ride.

The final evolution are the riders that want to incorporate several suspension upgrades to achieve the best ride quality and performance that can be achieved. For the Spyder these are tires, sway bar, and shocks.

Straight running is not generally an issue. It's the sweeping and sharper cornering, the trip around a roundabout, exiting a highway and taking on a cloverleaf, riding a twisty road that is riddled with dips and dives, and lastly - trying to keep the on board electronics from spoiling our fun.

Tires are a first start. Good, "premium" tires may not always be the ticket to an improvement. Less expensive tires can be more supple, softer and respond better to a more aggressive riding style. May have to change tires more often, but so be it. A beefier sway bar that is a good assist in sweepers and sharper corners, but not capable of handling corners that invoke the dreaded "Nanny".

This brings us to the last, but IMHO the most important aspect of front end suspension tuning, the shocks.

You can tune your suspension to achieve your riding profile just by playing with the shocks and shock springs. Tires and a beefier sway bar can assist in achieving your goals and should be considered as a must do to complement the work you will be putting into selecting and tuning the shocks.

The front and rear suspension components should be considered as a unit, and when one is changed, the other should be to compensate for this. Beefing up the rear suspension so as not to bottom out when riding can overpower an OEM front suspension. The reverse is true as well.

The rear suspension is fairly simple to change and achieve a good ride quality and riding profile. Have found enough information on this forum to submit that for an RT, a rear OEM shock with a retrofitted 600 lb/in shock spring should be a change and go ride for most of us. The OEM shock has no preload or naming adjustments, although preload parts and pieces can probably be found for this purpose. There is no way to adapt any damping adjustments to a shock that does not already have this feature.

Front shocks are similar, there are preload adapters for OEM shocks that do not have this function. We must realize that preload has one function even though it is misused to achieve others, to set the ride height of the platform. Once set for the riding profile, off to the next issue.

The next issue with the front shocks is the correct shock spring for the riding profile, weight of the platform and rider(s). Choosing the correct shock spring is an iterative process because everyone has a different sense of what it is to be achieved, and how this "feels".

Once you have settled on the appropriate shock spring rate that achieves your aim, you need to assess if the shock is capable of providing the appropriate shock spring control in compression and rebound. If the shock that you have achieves this aim, ride it like you stole it. If not, a further search is required for a shock that can support and control the shock spring selected to achieve your ride quality and profile.

Shock manufacturers that have ventured into the Spyder suspension upgrade world are a great boon to our search for the holy grail of Spyder suspension upgrade(s). All manufacturers understand the same suspension principles, but it how these principles are applied that may differ.

The Spyder suspension world is a very small part of these aftermarket shock suppliers. A person's riding profile may fit into a specific range that a supplier has found to need "X" components. Most people will be satisfied with this approach and no further work or trialing will be required.

Then there are those that want and need that illusive setup that requires a lot of change and trialing. I admit to being one of these people.

I am pleased with the suspension upgrade(s) to date. New tires, beefier sway bar, and very good shocks.

My pet peeve, shock springs to achieve the ride quality and performance I'm willing to accept is an ongoing project. The correct shock spring not only improves ride quality and performance, but is necessary for setting the correct preload and not using preload to compensate for an inadequate shock spring rate.

I also require damping adjustment(s), be it rebound, compression or both. Properly selected shock springs and low speed rebound damping should be the only additional shock adjustment needed.

It has been mentioned that rebound damping by some manufacturers is a "feel" not a specific shock performance issue. This is very much a myth. Shock preload if applicable is set first for motorcycle sag, or ride height. Rebound damping, the next most common shock adjustment, is to set the shock spring control such that the shock when compressed returns to its static position with no or a slight overshoot. This is a visual setting and not to be confused with a setting that is derived from a "feeling".

Setting the rebound damping as per the shock industry standard may not give you the ride quality and performance that you envision. To this end, having a shock that has a considerable number of rebound adjustments is required to fine tune the shock to your requirements.

Once I settle on the appropriate shock spring for my requirements, I will be discussing the shock valving to determine if it is adequate for the shock spring selected.

Having mentioned the above, keeping cost(s) under wraps is an issue and is a key consideration. Now that I have muddied the waters that much more, go forth and have fun, and remember - lives too short, eat desert firsthyea:

Interesting post. Much of what was posted is accurate. Several things I have a differing experience than what has been posted. Not bad, simply again experience. It will be a bit complex for this audience if you do go inside a damper and discuss valving.

Sad part about Spyder, Spyder handling, a focus on Spyder shocks (both stock and aftermarket) is where designers and tuners, as always in the suspension industry, aim for a best compromise setup. Yes, I said it, I understand it and having dealt with setting up suspension for decades stand by those words. Even my own motorcycles, mountain bikes, Tacoma, and yes our Spyder is at best a compromise. As soon as a person believes they have a perfect setup, an outside parameter changes, and perfection is gone.

My thoughts regarding aftermarket Spyder shocks, and several brands are offered, there is a huge volume of snake oil pushed upon frugal Spyder owners with the money to spend. Add to this, it takes very little increase in performance of the shocks to have a person believe they got there monies worth, when typically, that may not be the actual truth. Suffice to say, that when I asked one of the shock suppliers a few questions, not even specific details stuff, I got the most rude and offensive reply that truly showed by the persons words I had hit a nerve that jeopardized his snake oil overpriced stuff. Plus, I have had friends that dealt with this company also, for conventional motorcycle suspension and were very disappointed.

Back on point though, yes, a Spyder setup can be improved. How much correlates directly back to the majority of what the words state in the quoted post. Suffice to say there is no one magic bullet. And if you do buy shocks, buy wisely since shocks are kind of the gunpowder of that magic bullet.

Everyone should realize also, a Spyder RT chassis is not a high performance design. The steel used to make it is not high grade or Chromoly. The design is minimally braced. The swingarm is long and flexy. Even the A arms can be seen flexing under braking. The design on paper was a touring machine. Remember the words I mentioned “best compromise”, those design parameters of chassis flex and compliance are part of that compromise. Flex, design type, and oem suspension provide that supple but controllable touring platform. There is a reason no Honda Goldwings race the Daytona 200 or Moto GP. Similarly, a Spyder RT unless heavily modified will never be a sport bike. Not saying it can not be improved or fast, but as always, a good rider can go fast on just about anything, much comes down to the rider themselves.

Shop wisely.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Thanks PMK. Compromise it is and will always be, but it is fun to go through the process.

Another of my considerations is that the platform/machine should do more work than I, ergo, the quest is on for the holy grail.

 

[PMK]

Thanks PMK. Compromise it is and will always be, but it is fun to go through the process.

Another of my considerations is that the platform/machine should do more work than I, ergo, the quest is on for the holy grail.

Overall, it is pretty easy to get a chassis setup that does more work than the rider, with the exception of when barely rolling, such as parking. High performance automotive tires, adequate pressure, minimal front ride height, roll stiffness based on rider and payload weight, throttle application technique, and most important front alignment specs based on actual testing to determine the point when those other parameters induce toe out bump steer.

Also critical is that when changes are made, it is always a benefit to know that using BUDS or BUDS2 the electronic sensors were nulled. Prior to purchasing BUDS, I believed the setup on our Spyder was very good. When I checked the sensor settings, all were well within spec, but not nulled to balanced. After quickly nulling the sensor, the left / right steering balance improved from the previous within spec setting.

If you have a BRP trailer hitch, run it even if not pulling a trailer, the increased stiffness it adds to the swingarm helps stabilize and prevent the rear end from oscillating like a spring as the swingarm twists.
When testing or traveling, place heavier stuff in the frunk. That lowers CG a lot, and adds front grip. Just plan your toe in spec to accommodate some added payload. Weight on the front of a correctly toed Spyder will see bump steer toe out sooner on account of that added weight on the front suspension.

Unless you are absolutely positive about your front shocks being 100% a solid column of fluid between the sealhead and the IFP, favor running them with shafts down to help retain damper fluid through the valving and rebound clicker freebleed circuit.

As time permits, most likely during the cooler winter months when it is more fun to ride, I have a few changes planned, and expect a noticeable increase in cornering speed without decreasing rider or rider passenger confidence. Time will tell.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Also critical is that when changes are made, it is always a benefit to know that using BUDS or BUDS2 the electronic sensors were nulled. Prior to purchasing BUDS, I believed the setup on our Spyder was very good. When I checked the sensor settings, all were well within spec, but not nulled to balanced. After quickly nulling the sensor, the left / right steering balance improved from the previous within spec setting.

If you have a BRP trailer hitch, run it even if not pulling a trailer, the increased stiffness it adds to the swingarm helps stabilize and prevent the rear end from oscillating like a spring as the swingarm twists.
When testing or traveling, place heavier stuff in the frunk. That lowers CG a lot, and adds front grip. Just plan your toe in spec to accommodate some added payload. Weight on the front of a correctly toed Spyder will see bump steer toe out sooner on account of that added weight on the front suspension.

Unless you are absolutely positive about your front shocks being 100% a solid column of fluid between the sealhead and the IFP, favor running them with shafts down to help retain damper fluid through the valving and rebound clicker freebleed circuit.

Thanks again for the comments. Have the BUDS software. What sensors are you alluding to? Will look at manual. Keeping the trailer hitch on. Will look into what you are mentioning about the shocks. Always something to learn. Cheers