Spyder sat too long - now it sounds/runs bad! Any ideas?

[Pictreed]

Well, it's still running like poop. Feels like a cylinder isn't firing. I has no power and even sounds like a cylinder is missing.

So I'm thinking about taking it the rest of the way apart so I can get to the engine and need some advice from those who work on their engines. I'm work on my plane engine and have rebuilt 2 VW Beetle engines so I'm mechanical but we are talking about 1950s technology.

I want to pull the spark plugs and scope the cylinders and clean the fuel injectors with some Hoppe's gun cleaner.

Thanks for all your advice. Tim

 

[Pictreed]

CopperSpyder, what's up with the vacuum line? To save you some reading it's a 2014 RT with about 10,000 miles. Some of the exposed fuel lines were cracked and I've replaced the cracked line and fuel filter. But before that I ran Sea Foam (snake oil) through it, let it sit over night, and ran it for about 5 minutes again, drained the fuel and put in 91 oct ethanol free fuel.

 

[BertRemington]

Pictreed -- some guidance:

(1) As I said above "Replace both hoses. If you are hesitant about this note the relationship of the hoses to the catalytic convertor and decide whether you want a long-term relationship with this Spyder."

(2) As I said above "fuel injector hose clamps"

(3) The interior wall of BRP fuel lines can separate from the nylon mesh and interfere with the flow of fuel. Replacing the two fuel hoses is you next step. Yes I know I'm repeating myself. Apparently it's necessary.

(4) Describe the engine performance more completely including throttle position, throttle position change (the Spyder is throttle-by-wire so the stepper motor might be having trouble moving the throttle plate), engine temperature, engine speed. After running the engine for three minutes, are the three separate header pipes' temperatures the same, both closest to the engine and closest to the convertor. What is the nature of the misses -- pops, no-fire, multi-fire? Do you smell raw fuel from the exhaust (the 1330cc runs rich when cold so you're trying for raw fuel, not rich mixture smell).

(5) Is there a possibility of insect or rodent infestation? The air filter is easy to access. And inspect the wiring. Might as well get used to taking the bodywork off -- it's a Spyder-thing.

(6) The 1330cc is a dry sump, DOHC, oil- and water-cooled tightly integrated engine with ALL that implies. In simple terms, it ain't borescope friendly. So just set that approach aside. Especially since that isn't where your problem lies.

(7) Very possibly you have sticky fuel injectors. Hopefully not. Not hard to get to, just tedious (same as spark plugs and then a bit further to remove another air box).

(8) If the Spyder was exposed to an outdoors environment for six or more months it's time to make the acquaintance with your fuse boxes. Take a few fuses out and see if they need cleaning. If they do then clean all of them including the relays.

(9) And then there's the battery. If it's more than a year old, don't bother testing it just replace it. And if you're not charging it every night while you're chasing your gremlins then charge it every night. Spyder's got a thing for batteries too.

The good news is the 1330cc engine is robust so this problem will have a fairly simple fix. But you gotta get that borescope fantasy out of your head...

Best wishes.

 

[Pictreed]

Dang Bert, why the hostility? You live in a beautiful part of the country and have a couple bikes which I assume are running and your not working on them in 105 degree heat.

Are you saying don't use those hose clamps? If so I'll look into "fuel injector" hose clamps.

My primary goal was to replace the fuel filter to see if that was the issue but it appears I'll be taking all the other advice you gave sooner than later.
Since I'll have it apart I'll have to make a list of items and just start updating it.

I did order the BajaRon ignition wires and fine wire plugs. Looks like I'll be looking for a fuel line crimper and other lines and such.

 

[BertRemington]

I'm "hostile" because I don't want to be a party to a gasoline fire.

Your first post: "only running on one cylinder. We tried the sea foam last year and it slowly cleaned up"

"last year" was at least 8 months ago but the 1330cc will accept even year-old gasoline.

You then said "I checked the oil and it’s WAY over". That's normal for the 1330cc dry sump when it's hasn't been run until the engine is warm.

And then "Im thinking about borescoping the heads but I suspect a sensor got fouled."

"borescoping the heads" -- WTF? And there's only the one head.

"sensor got fouled" -- good call, let's go with that.

NO mention of fuel filter!

Your second post discussed how new fuel seemed to have improved things and your decision to replace the fuel filter. I responded with some suggestions based on my 2014 RT-S fuel filter replacement experience.

From there the dialog kinda wandered. Until you posted with photos showing only the 2" section replaced using worm gear clamps.

Gasoline under pressure is dangerous and those fuel lines, hidden behind the bodywork, are above the catalytic convertor. A leak while you and your wife are riding in boondocks Dallas could result in the loss to this forum of all three of you. Don't think it hasn't happened? A 990cc Spyder was lost to fire from such a leak (the rider is safe).

Sooo wishing you, your wife and your Spyder many years of happy riding I tried again.

Here is a fuel injection hose clamp https://www.autozone.com/gaskets-an...-clamp/p/varese-hose-clamp-10-pack/800000_0_0

Notice the interior metal band that slides within the outer band. That ensures constant torque for the full circumference of the hose as the clamp is tightened. The Oetiker clamp tool is not required.

Your last post "I did order the BajaRon ignition wires and fine wire plugs." The 1330cc engine doesn't have ignition wires. And the BajaRon plug kit is excellent because it includes both the thermal paste and silicone lubricant, both of which must be used properly and with care. But at 10K miles spark plugs are very unlikely to be the problem.

Which is likely to be a sensor as you said in your first post (crankshaft position is common).

So best wishes and sayo naraba.

 

[Pictreed]

Thanks Bert. Yes the thread did wonder for a bit because I had to let the bike sit even longer and never got to do anything that was suggested. I had some great losses and I lost attention on the bike issue which sucks for the bike condition.

Basically it comes down to what I’m familiar with like the other engines. This tech is new to me so I’m sorry you have to repeat some things. Some of it I didn’t understand till you explained it a little differently. If you’d prefer not to help me I understand but it appears you’re what I need.

Hope you stick with me but with a little more patience because having these issues because it may be something I did sucks enough.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Hey Tim. So how would you rate your Internet Forum experience so far?

When life happens, sometimes you just need to work at your own pace. You can get your own service manual here:

https://brpmanuals.com/product/2014...air-and-maintenance-manual-master-collection/

In order to get a more complete picture of what's going on, it is helpful to pull up the fault codes. When you do this yourself, you can only pull up codes that are Active at the moment that you pull them. So, start it up, and while it is running like poop, simultaneously depress the Mode, Set and Turn Signal Cancel Buttons (turn signal button pushed straight in). Any active code will appear on the center LCD display. It looks like a OBD-II code but it isn't. So, don't Google for its meaning. Put on your reading glasses, right it down, and just post it here. Someone can look it up for you.

We had a 2014 RT in here a couple of years ago with your exact same issue after sitting a long time. Was throwing a Lean code. Turns out the whole thing was due to low fuel pressure as the fuel pump was failing and actually completely died right in from of us. Made diagnosis pretty easy.

No, I'm not saying go out and replace the fuel pump yet. But a fuel system pressure test would be prudent. All you need to do is Tee into the pressure line between the fuel pump and the inlet to the fuel filter, with a test gauge rig. Since you have a screw type clamp at the filter already, you could tap into the line there and not have to cut anything. I bet your A&P buddies at the airport would have a test rig already made up that they use, and would let you borrow it for a few hours. You can test it with the engine stopped or running. But of course, running is where your problem is. Normal pressure is 56 - 62 PSI. I would do this long before I got into borescopes and such.

And, if you're seeing steady improvement with Redline fuel system cleaner, stay with what works.

 

[Mikey]

opcorn:

 

[Pictreed]

Doug, i wasn’t going to go any deeper than I did on removing parts of the bike but the more I took off the more missing screws I found. So I have the air boxes off so I can see the plugs and fuel rails. Should I inspect anything at this point or get some more screws and get the breather back on so I can run it?

 

[Pictreed]

Ok, what am I looking at here. I expected to see spark plugs and ignition wires. ��

I would like to look at the plugs just to rule out the easy things. I assume it’s here.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Doug, i wasn’t going to go any deeper than I did on removing parts of the bike but the more I took off the more missing screws I found. So I have the air boxes off so I can see the plugs and fuel rails. Should I inspect anything at this point or get some more screws and get the breather back on so I can run it?

Well, if you have plugs coming from Ron, and wanted to get them in, now’s the time. It would give you the opportunity to look at the old plugs. Just inspect all the electrical you can see for good connections and for any rodent damage. Nothing specific comes to mind, unless you find a smoking gun. Rehab and replace what you need and start putting it back together.

 

[Pictreed]

They sold me ignition wires and this doesn’t have a traditional coil and wires. I didn’t post the pic.


There’s a collection of nuts or seeds in there so I’m not sure how this bike was cared for before I bought it.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Ok, what am I looking at here. I expected to see spark plugs and ignition wires. ��

I would like to look at the plugs just to rule out the easy things. I assume it’s here.

Well, this is a good example of why getting that repair manual will benefit you. Otherwise, you’re gonna spend why too much time on the internet. 25 bucks.

The 1330 is a coil on plug engine. Each one of those is the coil for that plug, and it’s triggered from that wire harness going to each one. Low voltage. So, remove that screw, give the coil some twisting motion back and forth while pulling straight up. It’s similar to how you would remove a plug wire from a plug. On Ron’s page he has a nifty diagram.

Don’t know why they sold you wires. Communications issue I suppose. Talk to them to return them. Did they send you 3 wires or just 2.

Check the intake manifold for nuts and seeds the best you can, to make sure nothing got past the air filter. There may be a pile in the silencer in the intake and filter area.

 

[Pictreed]

Is that a different manual than the one from Service Manual Warehouse?

 

[Pictreed]

Spark plugs look ok I guess. .
I’ll just clean off the excess anti-seize or maybe put in the new ones I have.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Spark plugs look ok I guess. ....
I’ll just clean off the excess anti-seize or maybe put in the new ones I have.

If you've got them, put in the new plugs. While it's sorta unlikely that they've just failed, you really can't tell if they are still functioning properly just by 'looking' at them - and you really don't want to hafta pull it all apart again just to replace them once you've ruled everything else out, do you?? :banghead:

Mind you, the presence of 'nuts or seeds' does suggest there may have been some rodent action in there, so besides doing that intake manifold check that Snowbelt suggests, it might be worth your while to also very carefully check all the wires in the harness to see if anything's been nibbled on! :gaah:

 

[BertRemington]

Don't

DON'T DON'T DON'T clean off that "excess antiseize"! It's not antiseize. It's a special thermal paste. Which is included in Baja Ron's sparkplug kit.

 

[Pictreed]

Bert, I meant the bit of white stuff near the electrode but good to know it’s not anti seize lube.

Yeah the new plugs sound better.

At 10k miles I didn’t expect that much black on them. Do they look normal?

 

[BertRemington]

Let me begin with new plugs. The BR kit contains two packets: thermal paste and silicone lubricant. There isn't much of either but it's sufficient. The thermal paste is trickiest. Squeeze a tiny bit on the plug threads and spread it around. Rotate the plug and repeat. You don't have to fill the threads end-to-end but you do need to have some paste in a ring of threads for the entire circumference. With the lubricant you want a small amount on the coil "nose" that goes over the plug ceramic and a small amount on the seal that mates with the valve cover.

The spark plugs look fine except for being rich. If you conducted a header pipe heat test, I think the three pipes would be about the same temperature. That is, this isn't a single cylinder problem.

So I go back to your initial diagnosis: sensor.

Would you try reading the diagnostic codes from your instrument console again. I've never done this so other members can provide guidance.

And disconnect the battery for at least 20 minutes just to try to reset the ECU.

While disconnected check the airbox for nuts and shells as described above. With a small bright LED flashlight inspect the engine wiring for any signs of rodent damage. My country-life experience says they like individual wires near connectors. I've repaired more than one.

With the battery re-connected run through the throttle tests I described above.

There's a good chance in Texas heat a camshaft or crankshaft position sensor failed but usually there's a diagnostic code.

Can you provide some history for this Spyder?

BTW BRP sometimes uses the same connector for different sensors. I recommend a masking tape label when separating connectors especially on the left side of the engine.

 

[Pictreed]

Ok, the plugs I have shown my wife picked up when we first started having the problem out of a guess so we will have to source the silicone and thermal paste (I wonder if it's the same silicone at HD in plumbing and same thermal paste as CPU chips use?). She was just going for oil and filters but came home with extras.

The sensor plug looks like about $76 on Parts Shark. Where is a good source for parts? So should I test the fuel pressure next or go for the sensor? Does the sensor require any alignments to be made of the cam or does it just bolt on and done?

The rodent garbage is from the previous owner but I'll inspect everything.

I've read a few post about the method for getting the codes so I'll do that too.

I need to check the battery...it seems a bit weak and charging through some errors in the charger so I need to look into that too.