Sproket issue wrongly diagnosed

[Chiisai]

A week ago yesterday I made an appointment to have my rear tire change and to install a new belt at a dealer 250 miles away from where I live. At the time I made the appointment I was in OKC attending to some business there and the dealership in Missouri was on my way back home to SE Missouri. I arrived at the dealership at the designated time. My partner and I left on his Goldwing to go run some errands while they were changing the tire and the belt (I had foolishly followed a friend down a newly chip and seal road resulting in numerous tar encrusted rocks, two of the rocks were close to the edge and one of them had actually gone through the rubber and put a hole about 1/8 of an inch from the edge). When we got back to the dealership from running our errands, they called me on the phone and told me that I had an additional issue that they needed to discuss with me (the service man did not know I was actually in the dealership building). I walked to the service counter and they explained that my sprocket was bad and was needing to be replaced. The service mechanic went on to say that it was BAD (emphasis on the bad). He said it was so bad that he did not want me to walk out of the dealership without knowing just how bad it was. I asked a ton of questions, like how did this happen, what exactly was wrong with my sprocket, why did this happen and how many others have you seen on a RTL. He told me that he had changed out about 20 in his time as being a certified Can Am mechanic (no length of amount of time he had been certified). I was told that one of the reasons was due to operator driving habits and they asked if I "hotroded" my spyder. I told them no that 99.9% of my riding was done on paved roads and that I only go 5 above posted speed limits. I asked if they felt like the sprocket would survive the 250 mile trip back to my home. They remarked they had no way of knowing how long it would last. They asked me twice if I wanted them to change it out; I asked if they had the sprocket in stock, they said no. So that would mean that I would have to leave it there, wait for the part from Canada, wait for them to install it and then make a trip back to pick it up. Thankfully it would be covered under warranty.

Since I had not experienced any issues with my spyder, I was shocked and a little bewildered. I chose to attempt to get it back to my home in SE Missouri and then call a dealer closer to my home and order the part through them and then attempt to get it to that dealership. I rode my Spyder the 250 miles home with no issues, however I was clearly scared that the rear wheel would stop at any moment. I drove under the speed limit, trying to lessen the pressure on the sprocket. The next day I called the dealership closest to me and ordered the part. They opened a repair ticket and gave me a date to bring it in for installation.

Yesterday I rode the 86 miles to the nearest dealership where I had ordered the part so they could install the sprocket. My partner and I waited in the lounge at the dealership for them to do it. About an hour after we got there the service mechanic came into the lounge area carrying my sprocket in his hand. Apparently the other mechanic did not even take off the sprocket and do a visual inspection. In his words he said, "I spun the wheel and it made a pop, pop, pop sound". He told me that that indicated the sprocket was in bad shape and was failing. Below is a picture of my "failing" sprocket.



I was in total disbelief, as was the service mechanic. There was nothing wrong with my sprocket. No wear was detected. Yes, there was red dust on the outside and I questioned the mechanic regarding this red dust. He said the red dust is a residue of the Loctite and not an indication of a failing sprocket. The service manager came into the lounge and also confirmed that my sprocket was fine. Since they had opened a ticket on a "supposedly" failing sprocket, they were going to install the new one and send the original one (picture above) to BRP with the explanation of why they had installed the new sprocket along with the other dealers name and address.

I learned a valuable lesson from this. Never take the mechanics word for what they are telling you is wrong. Insist on seeing the "damaged or failing" part.

When I had been told by the first mechanic that my sprocket was BAD the first thing I did when I got home was to log into this board and researched threads regarding the sprockets. So my questions to others here, are you changing out completely good sprockets by diagnosing a failing sprocket by the red dust or are you doing a visual inspection? As you can see, my sprocket has the red dust, but I have no wear. Also, I might add that I have 39,000 miles on this sprocket (it's a 2016 RTL).

 

[Joel The Biker]

Are you sure they weren't talking about your rear sprocket? Seems to me they would have looked at the rear sprocket when they changed the rear tire much more closely than the front sprocket since it needs to be removed from the wheel. It is made of aluminum and could have been damaged by stones in the belt to a point where it would damage a new belt. The rubber isolators inside the rear sprocket could have been worn out also. This would explain why he asked if you hot rodded it. If they wore out, then it would damage the inside of the sprocket to a point where it could fail completely. I have never heard of the isolators wearing out except where someone used a lubricant to install the sprocket that "ate" the isolators.

 

[jcthorne]

The red dust is NOT from loctite. It IS iron oxide from the splines inside the pulley. Once the red dust appears, the coating inside the splines has worn through and the dust is working as an abrasive. The splines have a VERY short life from that point.

The first dealer was 100% correct in his diagnosis and the sprocket was DUE for replacement before it left you stranded. I trust the 2nd dealer installed the new sprocket and not the old one?

Its your home dealer that does no know what they are talking about and does not know how spline fretting wear occurs. Good thing BRP does and will authorize the replacement once the red dust is evident on the pulley.

 

[Chasinsparks]

My Expepreince

There was no doubt my was a sprocket failure as I was left stranded on the side of the road. I'm no expert my all means but as others have said here the red is an indication of an upcoming sprocket failure. Mine was red and the teeth were ground down to almost nothing. I'm not sure your first dealer was correct in saying that is was due to hard riding, mine gave out at 1645 miles I do not ride hard as I usually have precious cargo on the back (Wife).

 

[007james]

The red dust is NOT from loctite. It IS iron oxide from the splines inside the pulley. Once the red dust appears, the coating inside the splines has worn through and the dust is working as an abrasive. The splines have a VERY short life from that point.

The first dealer was 100% correct in his diagnosis and the sprocket was DUE for replacement before it left you stranded. I trust the 2nd dealer installed the new sprocket and not the old one?

Its your home dealer that does no know what they are talking about and does not know how spline fretting wear occurs. Good thing BRP does and will authorize the replacement once the red dust is evident on the pulley.

I am still confused if the “Pulley” that has the bad splines is the Sproket? If the Pully is bad, why is the Sproket changed, if its not the same Part? I just got my 2016 RT Limited back after being in the Shop 2 months, and the Work Order Invoice also described the Pulley stuck to the engine shaft, that they originally had decided the engine had to be removed and disassembled to access the engine shaft to remover the stuck Pulley. But after a month of more diagosing, it was decided that the Pulley was removed with out removing the engine. That’s when the worn Pulley splines were discovered. But on the Work Order Invoice, the Parts List that was replaced included a SPROCKET. So, question again, are the Sprocket and Pulley the same Part? Thanks. P.S. I negociated an extension on my Factory Waurentee, directely with BRP. They granted me an extra 4 months Extension on my Waurentee for my “ down time and frustrations.”

 

[Chupaca]

Though mine is and older model but they had similar issues mostly due to belt tension and "hotrodding" never caused this. Mine was from the holding bolt coming loose and allowing the pulley do have a side to side movement. This starts the red dust as moisture gets in (by the way the loctite used on these bolts is yellow and not red). I'm glad your second dealer actually removed and inspected it and will hopefully install it with a new bolt as they are essentially of one time use...:thumbup:

 

[Chiisai]

Are you sure they weren't talking about your rear sprocket? Seems to me they would have looked at the rear sprocket when they changed the rear tire much more closely than the front sprocket since it needs to be removed from the wheel. It is made of aluminum and could have been damaged by stones in the belt to a point where it would damage a new belt. The rubber isolators inside the rear sprocket could have been worn out also. This would explain why he asked if you hot rodded it. If they wore out, then it would damage the inside of the sprocket to a point where it could fail completely. I have never heard of the isolators wearing out except where someone used a lubricant to install the sprocket that "ate" the isolators.

The first mechanic did not even take the sprocket off of my Spyder. He could not have made a correct diagnosis without actually inspecting the actual sprocket. And the reason I know the first mechanic did not inspect the front sprocket is that when he came out to tell me that my sprocket was BAD and I told him that I would ride it home and go to a dealer closer to my home, he asked me if I wanted it put back together, I told him yes. My partner and I grabbed our helmets and jackets and walked out the door. We were surprised that my spyder was out front already-less than 3 minutes after I told him to put it all back together. He never had the sprocket off to inspect it. He gave me the part # before I left his showroom so that I could call a dealer closer to me and have them order the sprocket. It was not the rear sprocket that the first mechanic was diagnosing. I (and my partner) repeatedly asked the first mechanic which sprocket-front or rear. I also asked him for the location of the sprocket. He repeatedly answered the front sprocket.

I am inclined to believe the second mechanic. Why, because he actually took the time to take off the sprocket and inspect it. He even had the evidence in his hand when he came out to talk with me. After he installed the new sprocket, he also adjusted my new belt that I had the first mechanic install. The first mechanic did not even adjust it and I was wondering why my Spyder was shaking more than necessary on the ride home. After the second mechanic adjusted the belt (to BRP's specifications) I had no shaking of the spyder on my way home from his showroom.

With or without the red dust, there should be a visual inspection of a part that may have a history of failing. The first mechanic did not inspect it and therefore gave me an incorrect diagnosis. There was nothing wrong with my sprocket. And a pop, pop, pop that he said he heard is not enough reason to assume it was the sprocket. The second mechanic told me he did not hear any "popping" sounds at all. The first mechanic put fear in me of riding my spyder home when it was simply not necessary. The first mechanic also was incorrect when he advised me that the failure was probably due to me "hotrodding" or as he also stated it being operators riding habits. This mechanic had no idea of what my riding habits were. And in fact, everyone that knows me and has ridden with me knows that I baby that machine like it is a new born.

 

[billybovine]

The first mechanic did not even take the sprocket off of my Spyder. He could not have made a correct diagnosis without actually inspecting the actual sprocket. And the reason I know the first mechanic did not inspect the front sprocket is that when he came out to tell me that my sprocket was BAD and I told him that I would ride it home and go to a dealer closer to my home, he asked me if I wanted it put back together, I told him yes. My partner and I grabbed our helmets and jackets and walked out the door. We were surprised that my spyder was out front already-less than 3 minutes after I told him to put it all back together. He never had the sprocket off to inspect it. He gave me the part # before I left his showroom so that I could call a dealer closer to me and have them order the sprocket. It was not the rear sprocket that the first mechanic was diagnosing. I (and my partner) repeatedly asked the first mechanic which sprocket-front or rear. I also asked him for the location of the sprocket. He repeatedly answered the front sprocket.

I am inclined to believe the second mechanic. Why, because he actually took the time to take off the sprocket and inspect it. He even had the evidence in his hand when he came out to talk with me. After he installed the new sprocket, he also adjusted my new belt that I had the first mechanic install. The first mechanic did not even adjust it and I was wondering why my Spyder was shaking more than necessary on the ride home. After the second mechanic adjusted the belt (to BRP's specifications) I had no shaking of the spyder on my way home from his showroom.

With or without the red dust, there should be a visual inspection of a part that may have a history of failing. The first mechanic did not inspect it and therefore gave me an incorrect diagnosis. There was nothing wrong with my sprocket. And a pop, pop, pop that he said he heard is not enough reason to assume it was the sprocket. The second mechanic told me he did not hear any "popping" sounds at all. The first mechanic put fear in me of riding my spyder home when it was simply not necessary. The first mechanic also was incorrect when he advised me that the failure was probably due to me "hotrodding" or as he also stated it being operators riding habits. This mechanic had no idea of what my riding habits were. And in fact, everyone that knows me and has ridden with me knows that I baby that machine like it is a newborn.

So the first dealer diagnosed it correctly. The second dealer disagreed and did not know that your sprocket was in the early stages of failure. But the second dealer put the new sprocket on anyway while you waited. In my mind that puts the competence of the second dealer in question. Did they install the second sprocket correctly as per the service bulletin. I don't see how they could of. If they applied the loctite as they where suppose to. There is a cure time before the spyder to be driven. That did not happen if you drove it home the same day.

 

[jcthorne]

I am still confused if the “Pulley” that has the bad splines is the Sproket? If the Pully is bad, why is the Sproket changed, if its not the same Part? I just got my 2016 RT Limited back after being in the Shop 2 months, and the Work Order Invoice also described the Pulley stuck to the engine shaft, that they originally had decided the engine had to be removed and disassembled to access the engine shaft to remover the stuck Pulley. But after a month of more diagosing, it was decided that the Pulley was removed with out removing the engine. That’s when the worn Pulley splines were discovered. But on the Work Order Invoice, the Parts List that was replaced included a SPROCKET. So, question again, are the Sprocket and Pulley the same Part? Thanks. P.S. I negociated an extension on my Factory Waurentee, directely with BRP. They granted me an extra 4 months Extension on my Waurentee for my “ down time and frustrations.”

The correct term is sprocket but when the term pulley is used here its the same part. The belt runs around it. In this case, a sprocket is a pulley with grooves across it.

 

[jcthorne]

...
The first mechanic did not even take the sprocket off of my Spyder. He could not have made a correct diagnosis without actually inspecting the actual sprocket. .....

In this case that is an incorrect assumption. They did indeed make a correct diagnosis just by seeing the red dust present on the sprocket side. Removing it only determines how bad the wear is, not IF its worn. That is already determined by the presence of the iron oxide dust. It is worn, how much is not material. It needs replacement regardless.

 

[jcthorne]

So the first dealer diagnosed it correctly. The second dealer disagreed and did not know that your sprocket was in the early stages of failure. But the second dealer put the new sprocket on anyway while you waited. In my mind that puts the competence of the second dealer in question. Did they install the second sprocket correctly as per the service bulletin. I don't see how they could of. If they applied the loctite as they where suppose to. There is a cure time before the spyder to be driven. That did not happen if you drove it home the same day.

Good point! I completely missed the timeline. If they installed the new sprocket and you drove it home the same day, the repair WAS NOT done correctly.

So they do not know what sprocket fretting wear is, do not follow BRP instructions on how to repair the pulley and give you bad information in an attempt to discredit the first mechanic and make them selves look better....Need a new mechanic. Oh, and now the new sprocket needs to be removed and installed properly with yet another NEW bolt and the prescribed locktite on the splines this time. Sure hope you get this sorted soon and it does not leave you stranded.

 

[PMK]

The correct term is sprocket but when the term pulley is used here its the same part. The belt runs around it. In this case, a sprocket is a pulley with grooves across it.

Gets confusing, in simple terms a pulley is used with a belt, even if the belt has teeth. Then it becomes a toothed pulley.

A sprocket is used with a chain.

 

[PMK]

The red dust is NOT from loctite. It IS iron oxide from the splines inside the pulley. Once the red dust appears, the coating inside the splines has worn through and the dust is working as an abrasive. The splines have a VERY short life from that point.

The first dealer was 100% correct in his diagnosis and the sprocket was DUE for replacement before it left you stranded. I trust the 2nd dealer installed the new sprocket and not the old one?

Its your home dealer that does no know what they are talking about and does not know how spline fretting wear occurs. Good thing BRP does and will authorize the replacement once the red dust is evident on the pulley.

This is fully accurate that the red dust is a byproduct of fretting. The oxide is very hard and will rapidly wear the material away further.

The first dealer did accomplish a visual inspection and noted the oxide dust. He was not trying to steal your money, rather cautioning you about possible failure. He did not remove the pulley, likely for two reasons. First is per the manual a new bolt must be installed during reassembly. Second, the tech likely works flat rate and since the task of removing the pulley was not authorized to be accomplished, he would have been working for free.

Also, if the replacement was installed using the Loctite method, the others mentioning the required cure time not being allowed is indicative that either your replacement pulley was not installed by the latest methods, or the dealer deviated from the cure time instructions or no Loctite was applied.

You may want this resolved immediately as BRP may not wish to offer a second warranty payment and you could be subject to future repair costs.

 

[SpyderAnn01]

James, have you seen the bulletin reposted? Last week the bulletin had been deleted from BossWeb, so one, or both of these dealers may not have had that info. Also, my dealer was told by his BRP rep that they were not replacing sprockets unless they failed but that they will replace failed ones on extended warranty. Previously that would have been considered a wear item on BEST warranty.

I think that anyone who has had a failure should report it to the NHTSA, I think a recall needs to happen.

 

[Freddy]

Yet another nail in the coffin of poor old Reliability.

 

[jcthorne]

James, have you seen the bulletin reposted? Last week the bulletin had been deleted from BossWeb, so one, or both of these dealers may not have had that info. Also, my dealer was told by his BRP rep that they were not replacing sprockets unless they failed but that they will replace failed ones on extended warranty. Previously that would have been considered a wear item on BEST warranty.

I think that anyone who has had a failure should report it to the NHTSA, I think a recall needs to happen.

I confirmed with my dealer here in Houston that the message with direction on the loctite 648 is indeed on BOSSWEB. He told me its just an information message, not a recall or warranty bulletin.

I have sent 3 bikes to the dealer with red dust and all have been replaced under warranty, even past the end of the 2 year. This includes my own bike which is well into its 3rd year.

I do not have a copy of the BOSSWEB message. There has not yet been a single verified case of BRP denying warranty coverage for this issue, with red dust, not complete failure.

 

[metman]

Any chance BRP might cut me some slack on a 2012 RT that needed a new drive sprocket at 88,835 miles?
After the SE Ohio ride back in June and on the way to the Pittsburg area, she developed a "clunking" noise during deceleration at low speeds. I took
it to Mosites Motorsports near Pittsburg and they determined it was the drive sprocket splines. My BRP extended warranty ran out three months earlier in March, but the Service Manager said it would not have been covered under warranty anyway.
Back in April with 85K miles on the bike, I picked up a five year, 200K mile extended warranty from Full Throttle out of Florida, but haven't tried asking them yet. According to the Service Manager at Mosites, belts and sprockets are considered normal wear items, kinda like brake pads and tires.
But I sure would like to recoup some of the $439.76 that dealer visit cost me.

Mike in KY


PS. If I could remember how to change that states visited map, it should show all 48 contiguous state and 7 Canadian Provinces.

 

[jcthorne]

Any chance BRP might cut me some slack on a 2012 RT that needed a new drive sprocket at 88,835 miles?
After the SE Ohio ride back in June and on the way to the Pittsburg area, she developed a "clunking" noise during deceleration at low speeds. I took
it to Mosites Motorsports near Pittsburg and they determined it was the drive sprocket splines. My BRP extended warranty ran out three months earlier in March, but the Service Manager said it would not have been covered under warranty anyway.
Back in April with 85K miles on the bike, I picked up a five year, 200K mile extended warranty from Full Throttle out of Florida, but haven't tried asking them yet. According to the Service Manager at Mosites, belts and sprockets are considered normal wear items, kinda like brake pads and tires.
But I sure would like to recoup some of the $439.76 that dealer visit cost me.

Mike in KY


PS. If I could remember how to change that states visited map, it should show all 48 contiguous state and 7 Canadian Provinces.

Dont have the Ts and Cs for your contract but I do have them for BEST. Sprockets are NOT listed as wear items not covered. The belt is a wear item not covered.

 

[metman]

Dont have the Ts and Cs for your contract but I do have them for BEST. Sprockets are NOT listed as wear items not covered. The belt is a wear item not covered.

Thanks James, I'll contact Full Throttle and go from there. They said they would cover whatever BRP would cover.

Mike in KY