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Speed Sensor Differentials

WaltH

Senior Member
On my way home from the Chicago Spyder event in June, I experienced some very strange behavior on the part of my Spyder. Three times the computer spewed out a cascade of fault codes including “check DPS” which culminated with the Spyder going into Limp Mode. I thought I must be getting the much dreaded steering disease, except that the steering was operating just fine. In fact, everything was working just fine, if you didn’t count “Limp Mode”. I was able to cancel Limp Mode by rebooting several times, but the “check DPS” code remained on for most of the next two days.

The day after I got home I took the Spyder to a new dealer about 45 miles up the road. By then the “check DPS” code was gone and there wasn’t much of anything to read in the history file other than some references to speed sensor differentials. The Spyder technician came up with a theory to explain my strange experience that I thought was crazy at the time. Thousands of miles later, his theory makes more sense and seems to be validated by the fact that there have been no fault codes, or any other strange behavior, since then.

The technician said that since I was using automobile tires on the front which were just slightly larger in circumference than the stock tires, I could generate junior level fault codes for speed senor differentials, depending upon road conditions. The front tires would be turning a little slower than the rear which, although an automotive tire, was closer to the stock circumference. Under normal circumstances, the speed differential would be within the tolerance provided for by the system. If the rear tire were to slip a little, such as in a heavy rain storm, the differential would increase and the fault code would be generated.

My experience was the result of a combination of factors. I rode through two days of very heavy rain. The memory cache for the fault codes is very small. When the cache is full, a condition is created which causes a cascade of fault codes to appear which have no relation to reality. The only real fault code was the speed sensor differential which doesn’t appear on the instrument cluster. When the “check DPS” code cascades it triggers Limp Mode which is real. I was in Limp Mode because the computer had a brain fart.

I have been in heavy rain before, and since, with automobile tires on the front and rear with no trouble because of it. On this particular trip I must have exceeded the Spyder’s tolerance for my heresy. It is my understanding that the speed sensors on Ford trucks, and no doubt many others, are adjustable to accommodate a change in tire size. The physical sensor does not change, just the way the computer recognizes it.
 
Thanks for the post. Makes a ton of sense. I was wondering if it was possible that when one of my DPS failure warnings came on that it was due to a low tire on one side, making the circumference of that tire smaller. I got to North Carolina and had a small leak in my right front tire and had a fault code the same day.
Code reset itself after I replaced the tire the same day. No other codes....for a while
 
Interesting...and it makes some sense. All software has limits, which when exceeded can trigger a "mental breakdown". I doubt the Spyder is any exception. Odd that having some hydroplaning would cause the programming to default. That is a normal condition, with the degreee depending on the amount of slippage. The traction control normally kicks in at that time. I suspect you may have had very slight rear traction loss, which caused you to exceed the limits of a fault code...which were apparently below the threshold for the traction control to kick in. Kind of a programming mismatch of the two subroutines. :dontknow:

Just so everyone knows, cascading faults are most commonly caused by loose relays. If this happens to you, don't automatically assume it is your tires. Check the relays first.
 
Mines in the shop with all kind of codes and in limp mode.I was doing about 100 when it went in to limp mode no fun.I got vss,dps,abs,espn cbs abc and every other code you can think of.They think its the sas so i sit here on my ass.:dontknow:Oh awhile back i posted about a code po707 took it to shop they called brp to see what it mint they don't know.706 and 708 has to do with the gps.They put a new in don't get that code anymore.You know they had to put it but don't know why.BB:dontknow:
 
When the cache is full, a condition is created which causes a cascade of fault codes to appear which have no relation to reality.
40Kb is the space to store the fault codes until the Service clear the history via B.U.D.S.; this is plenty for tens of thousands faults.
IMHO, one of the fault codes that "appear with no relations to reality" is the clue where your mechanic will fix your Spyder. "DPS fault" can show on the display and B.U.D.S. for many reasons: short in wiring system, bad bulbs, bad DPS, bad break switch, low brake fluid, bad relay, low battery, loose McCruise magnet and many more. "Limp Mode" is not the result of how many DPS faults and other faults are accumulated but the ryding time with a neglected DPS error in the display. I don't buy the theory with the tire size: is working or is going in Limp Mode from the beginning.
 
Check the old post from about two years ago...

I posted a story on how ABS/VSS/DPS all work together.

As I said then, the computer has an "X" number in it's program for the max amout of differance it will allow in the RPMs of the tries before it takes action.

Bigger/smaller tire diameters can cause this "moment" to become very close together and although not quite at the "trigger point" can cause just these kind of "hidden gremlins" in the system. :shocked:

As autos have used ABS/VSS systems for quite some time now, it is common knowledge that YOU NEVER WANT TO START PLAYING AROUND WITH THE TIRE DIAMETER FRONT TO REAR. :lecturef_smilie:

Changing the diameter on all tires together is OK. But when you start inducing this kind of differance front to rear (which sometime can just be from the tires being from a different manufacturer) it can have you chasing "ghosts in the machine" like crazy. :gaah:

MM
 
This also makes sense to me, and is the reason I asked the question about any issues with the speed sensors in your other thread. When we were in Daytona this spring, a guy gave me some brochures with some really cool custom rims for the Spyder. They were all for 17 and 18 inch front tires. I asked him about the rear, and he stated they just leave that at the stock size. I asked if it was causing any problems doing that. He stated it worked well for most of the Spyders they had installed them on, but others would go into Limp mode when they got up to around 40 mph. This should correlate to about the same time traction control is kicking in.

You went with a 175 height versus the 165, so your change was very slight; however, it is still a change between what the computer expects to be reading.
 
40Kb is the space to store the fault codes until the Service clear the history via B.U.D.S.; this is plenty for tens of thousands faults.

Depending on how often the computer samples / records the fault data, tens of thousands of fault codes could accumulate in a matter of seconds or minutes.
 
You went with a 175 height versus the 165, so your change was very slight; however, it is still a change between what the computer expects to be reading.

Yes but if you remember from high school...

As the diameter of a circle increases the circumference increase is much greater.

It is this "rolling distance" increase per RPM that causes the problems.

The greater the circumference the lower the rolling RPM's become at a set speed, and this difference over the stock RPM/verses speed keeps getting greater as the speed increases.

In theory go fast enough and the VSS would kick in full blown as the difference of the two RPM's (front to back) would hit the "moment threshold."

MM
 
Yes but if you remember from high school...

As the diameter of a circle increases the circumference increase is much greater.

It is this "rolling distance" increase per RPM that causes the problems.

The greater the circumference the lower the rolling RPM's become at a set speed, and this difference over the stock RPM/verses speed keeps getting greater as the speed increases.

In theory go fast enough and the VSS would kick in full blown as the difference of the two RPM's (front to back) would hit the "moment threshold."

MM

Completely understood. :thumbup:
 
The ratio of times a 2 inch circle has to turn vs a 1 inch circle for a fixed distance is the same from velocity zero until you approach the speed of light then the universe starts to warp and it gets complicated:thumbup:
 
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