Something Is Rotten in the Spyder engine

[johnnyg]

I am not sure I understand your point..

Doc and the Spyderdom relationship is most outstanding in my book.

I just have a bungie cord that just keeps on working.

You tell them Forrest.

 

[jedd]

This is one of those deals where many of us felt this was going to happen, Doc you need a good engine builder that will stand behind building a power plant running at 100% duty cycle for ever. You have the coin so that is my suggestion. As to warranty of this failure,,I can't side with you om that. Now all that being said do I think BRP should offer some assistance? The answer to that is yes they should by not paying warranty they are released of any liability, and setting you up with a engine at cost or something of that nature would be a great act of goodwill on their part.
You've pushed the envelope too far on this one my friend The Aerocharger IMHO is the elephant in the room. I know other engines have melted down without the Aerocharger, however everyone at BRP knows you have it so can't blame them for denying warranty.

Build a good naturally aspirated horse and you'll be quicker, and more likely to survive long long WOT runs.

Sorry Man,
Jim

 

[spydee owner]

something rotten in engine

Did you tell the same think for the failed "power plant" non-turbo Spyders?

From what I see, it is just my opinion, that far too many spyder owners think they know what is best for the bike or what will or will not damage it if they install aftermarket parts. Far too many owners must think that no engineering went into the bike before certain parts were selected or certain settings where made.
The bike was designed with a particular end use in mind and comes with good performance and handling, for BRPs target demographic.
I use all BRP oil and lube products, air filters, tires, plugs, and get excellent tire wear, good performance and most of all excellent dependability. Furthermore, if I were to have a major malfunction, I can show that it's all BRP products that were used.

It's a bike owners right to do as they wish and modify the machine as they want. It just does not seem right to be making a blanket statement that there is something wrong with the engine when it has been proven long before the spyder came along and even now there are many people happily enjoying there spyders using them for what they were designed for.

BRP seems to be a company that does the right thing when they know there is a major mechanical problem (power steering recall).
I am not aware of any warranty that covers failures when the product has been used in competition or modified for performance.

I don't know for sure but I would think that BMW or HD given similar circumstances would end up with the same resolution.

 

[patdcop]

I bet Doc is asking the Aprilia team to build an RSV 1000 motor for a turbo application with can am mounts.

 

[bone crusher]

From what I see, it is just my opinion, that far too many spyder owners think they know what is best for the bike or what will or will not damage it if they install aftermarket parts. Far too many owners must think that no engineering went into the bike before certain parts were selected or certain settings where made.
The bike was designed with a particular end use in mind and comes with good performance and handling, for BRPs target demographic.
I use all BRP oil and lube products, air filters, tires, plugs, and get excellent tire wear, good performance and most of all excellent dependability. Furthermore, if I were to have a major malfunction, I can show that it's all BRP products that were used.

It's a bike owners right to do as they wish and modify the machine as they want. It just does not seem right to be making a blanket statement that there is something wrong with the engine when it has been proven long before the spyder came along and even now there are many people happily enjoying there spyders using them for what they were designed for.

BRP seems to be a company that does the right thing when they know there is a major mechanical problem (power steering recall).
I am not aware of any warranty that covers failures when the product has been used in competition or modified for performance.

I don't know for sure but I would think that BMW or HD given similar circumstances would end up with the same resolution.

You make valid points but you are protected by the law if you add a third party component and it has no effect on the failure of a warrantied part. In this case, a turbo charger is a no brainer on the effect of an engine, but as others have pointed out, adding LEDs, new shields, different pipes, better air filters, etc...these would be hard to link to serious issues.

I believe it's how far you go and the risk you're willing to take. All vehicle manufacturers have small print...for a reason. However, the onus falls on the dealer/manufacturer to prove that a modification caused an issue...in most cases, most of us here are fine. If the cause cannot be directly determined, they cannot deny you. Only a few have gone so far as to basically completely alter their engine...

 

[dave01]

You make valid points but you are protected by the law if you add a third party component and it has no effect on the failure of a warrantied part. In this case, a turbo charger is a no brainer on the effect of an engine, but as others have pointed out, adding LEDs, new shields, different pipes, better air filters, etc...these would be hard to link to serious issues.

I believe it's how far you go and the risk you're willing to take. All vehicle manufacturers have small print...for a reason. However, the onus falls on the dealer/manufacturer to prove that a modification caused an issue...in most cases, most of us here are fine. If the cause cannot be directly determined, they cannot deny you. Only a few have gone so far as to basically completely alter their engine...

Very well written. A company must prove a mod caused the failure. They can not assume.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Firefly]

Agree with the most The posts- and yes it's on BRP to give a good reason as to why they are not covering under warranty.

Also remember that BRP engineers have to make the spyder EPA compliant, quiet , etc.

 

[dave01]

Also remember that BRP engineers have to make the spyder EPA compliant, quiet , etc.

Must be why the Spyders dont come with the Kewlmetal pipe on them.:yikes::yikes::yikes:

 

[NancysToy]

I love Doc as much as anybody in the SpyderLovers family, but I just can't support him here. There burden of proof on the manufacturer isn't that heavy. All they would have to show is that equipment that was capable of causing operation outside the design parameters of the engine and systems, was installed and used. This would be simple with the limited capabilities of the fuel injection, sensors, and ECM, and the limited cooling system on the Spyder. Unless the turbo manufacturer could produce results from extended testing, that showed no damage to the stock engine, it would be hard for to deny a turbo was capale of wreaking havoc. Showing that the modification could easily have caused the damage seen, should be enough. This would be especially easy with an owner with a history of racing, high speed operation, and operation in the upper rpm ranges. Sound familiar? If I were the owner, I would grin and bear it.

I do think that it would be outstanding for the manufacturer or a dealer to step up to the plate and offer a replacement engine at cost...strings or no strings. What a great idea! If I got that engine, I would build it to the hilt, especially addressing the weaknesses that showed up in the teardown. If the pistons from the recent failure looked like the ones in the photos, I would be looking at more than forged pistons. Melting pistons points out a need for additional cooling, additional fuel, and possibly modified ignition timing. Bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump and lines, a different engine management system, a bigger radiator, and more water flow would be good thoughts. An oil cooler fan and thermostat wouldn't hurt. Better monitoring could be used to find the problem areas.

In the end, even this stuff might not be enough. We used to run nitro through the old Chrysler hemis. At a certain point in our quests for speed, all we did was destroy them wholesale. The physical characteristics of the motor had been reached and exceeded, and nothing on earth was going to hold them together anymore. Re-engineered aftermarket blocks and heads from Donovan, Keith Black, and Ed Pink became necessities. All engines have their physical limits. I wish that was not true, but like the man said, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

 

[bone crusher]

I love Doc as much as anybody in the SpyderLovers family, but I just can't support him here. There burden of proof on the manufacturer isn't that heavy. All they would have to show is that equipment that was capable of causing operation outside the design parameters of the engine and systems, was installed and used. This would be simple with the limited capabilities of the fuel injection, sensors, and ECM, and the limited cooling system on the Spyder. Unless the turbo manufacturer could produce results from extended testing, that showed no damage to the stock engine, it would be hard for to deny a turbo was capale of wreaking havoc. Showing that the modification could easily have caused the damage seen, should be enough. This would be especially easy with an owner with a history of racing, high speed operation, and operation in the upper rpm ranges. Sound familiar? If I were the owner, I would grin and bear it.

I do think that it would be outstanding for the manufacturer or a dealer to step up to the plate and offer a replacement engine at cost...strings or no strings. What a great idea! If I got that engine, I would build it to the hilt, especially addressing the weaknesses that showed up in the teardown. If the pistons from the recent failure looked like the ones in the photos, I would be looking at more than forged pistons. Melting pistons points out a need for additional cooling, additional fuel, and possibly modified ignition timing. Bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump and lines, a different engine management system, a bigger radiator, and more water flow would be good thoughts. An oil cooler fan and thermostat wouldn't hurt. Better monitoring could be used to find the problem areas.

In the end, even this stuff might not be enough. We used to run nitro through the old Chrysler hemis. At a certain point in our quests for speed, all we did was destroy them wholesale. The physical characteristics of the motor had been reached and exceeded, and nothing on earth was going to hold them together anymore. Re-engineered aftermarket blocks and heads from Donovan, Keith Black, and Ed Pink became necessities. All engines have their physical limits. I wish that was not true, but like the man said, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

Scotty, I can't think of anyone who doesn't like Doc...he's always been nice and helpful to everyone. However, I assume even the nicest guys can ruin a bike! I like your comments about getting him a new engine at cost or close to it...let Doc then rebuild the weak parts so that the bike can take advantage of his super-stresses. If this works out, it only helps BRP with future changes to the bike on their own. Nothing beats real world experience and I'm sure if BRP helps Doc out even a bit, he'd be more than likely to share his experiences with them. I imagine sooner or later BRP will want to add a turbo, supercharger, or something else to boost power. If they know the longer-term effects now, they save themselves a lot of warranty money down the road.

 

[MouthPiece]

I love Doc as much as anybody in the SpyderLovers family, but I just can't support him here. There burden of proof on the manufacturer isn't that heavy. All they would have to show is that equipment that was capable of causing operation outside the design parameters of the engine and systems, was installed and used. This would be simple with the limited capabilities of the fuel injection, sensors, and ECM, and the limited cooling system on the Spyder. Unless the turbo manufacturer could produce results from extended testing, that showed no damage to the stock engine, it would be hard for to deny a turbo was capale of wreaking havoc. Showing that the modification could easily have caused the damage seen, should be enough. This would be especially easy with an owner with a history of racing, high speed operation, and operation in the upper rpm ranges. Sound familiar? If I were the owner, I would grin and bear it.

I do think that it would be outstanding for the manufacturer or a dealer to step up to the plate and offer a replacement engine at cost...strings or no strings. What a great idea! If I got that engine, I would build it to the hilt, especially addressing the weaknesses that showed up in the teardown. If the pistons from the recent failure looked like the ones in the photos, I would be looking at more than forged pistons. Melting pistons points out a need for additional cooling, additional fuel, and possibly modified ignition timing. Bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump and lines, a different engine management system, a bigger radiator, and more water flow would be good thoughts. An oil cooler fan and thermostat wouldn't hurt. Better monitoring could be used to find the problem areas.

In the end, even this stuff might not be enough. We used to run nitro through the old Chrysler hemis. At a certain point in our quests for speed, all we did was destroy them wholesale. The physical characteristics of the motor had been reached and exceeded, and nothing on earth was going to hold them together anymore. Re-engineered aftermarket blocks and heads from Donovan, Keith Black, and Ed Pink became necessities. All engines have their physical limits. I wish that was not true, but like the man said, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

Scotty, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. I guess I didn't do it as artful or perhaps articulate as you. However, I did note Doc's response, and it was more or less "thanks, but no thanks".

Chris

 

[Smokinspyder]

WOW those pistons were FRIED !!!! I havent seen pistons that messed up in a LONG LONG TIME ( Last motor we decided to see exactly how much abuse we could put it through . ) . Building a turbo motor with out building up your bottom end can work just as long as you dont " push to much " But thats another discussion .If our pistons from the us N/A guys ended up like that i would be asking about our mixtures and other questions ,Since building motors isnt exactly rocket science. BRP can void any warranties on their products legally as long as they can provide proof that ANY and ALL aftermarket equipment was the reason their product failed . In this case putting forced induction on a motor that wasnt techanically meant to be boosted, Now if they werent able to prove the turbo caused this then we all know how to handle it jsut because you purchased something with cash does not void your warranty EVER ( if you paid cash for a new RS or RT is your warranty void ???? NOPE ) But here you may want to read this since I have dealt with this more times than i want to even think about ( Building race cars/show cars and dealing with the mobile electronics side of things for somewhere since i was 17 yrs old and im 34 now ). Here is a Link to the Magnuson-Moss warranty act incase yall never heard about it . From a professional build the motor before you want to boost . Itll cost you more $$$$ but in the long run its safer. Good luck with a rebuild if you do . I give you kudos for boosting your spyder. I have been thinking about doing something like that recently ... Since its a motor not really designed for boosting you are a pioneer and seems everyone really likes you so I stand up and applaud you for being one of the first to try this route !!!! Good luck .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

 

[NancysToy]

Scotty, that was the point I was trying to make earlier. I guess I didn't do it as artful or perhaps articulate as you. However, I did note Doc's response, and it was more or less "thanks, but no thanks".

Chris

Chris, you did just fine. I just wanted to reinforce what you said. Sorry I didn't make that as clear as I should.

 

[bone crusher]

WOW those pistons were FRIED !!!! I havent seen pistons that messed up in a LONG LONG TIME ( Last motor we decided to see exactly how much abuse we could put it through . ) . Building a turbo motor with out building up your bottom end can work just as long as you dont " push to much " But thats another discussion .If our pistons from the us N/A guys ended up like that i would be asking about our mixtures and other questions ,Since building motors isnt exactly rocket science. BRP can void any warranties on their products legally as long as they can provide proof that ANY and ALL aftermarket equipment was the reason their product failed . In this case putting forced induction on a motor that wasnt techanically meant to be boosted, Now if they werent able to prove the turbo caused this then we all know how to handle it jsut because you purchased something with cash does not void your warranty EVER ( if you paid cash for a new RS or RT is your warranty void ???? NOPE ) But here you may want to read this since I have dealt with this more times than i want to even think about ( Building race cars/show cars and dealing with the mobile electronics side of things for somewhere since i was 17 yrs old and im 34 now ). Here is a Link to the Magnuson-Moss warranty act incase yall never heard about it . From a professional build the motor before you want to boost . Itll cost you more $$$$ but in the long run its safer. Good luck with a rebuild if you do . I give you kudos for boosting your spyder. I have been thinking about doing something like that recently ... Since its a motor not really designed for boosting you are a pioneer and seems everyone really likes you so I stand up and applaud you for being one of the first to try this route !!!! Good luck .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

Don't need to prove ANY and ALL...really just prove ANY or ALL...but who's counting...I like the turbo idea myself...better for BRP to eventually add this so that it IS covered under warranty...

 

[SethO]

they looked better than mine did and I did not have a turbo,

if brp wants the younger demographic then the doc's and hooligan's have to be there and somehow helped out, I don't know how to do that but a block or stock engine to build up would be a sale of way more spyders to younger riders.


hooliganism is catching on, buy a ticket and take the ride.

 

[Firefly]

WOW those pistons were FRIED !!!! I havent seen pistons that messed up in a LONG LONG TIME ( Last motor we decided to see exactly how much abuse we could put it through . ) . Building a turbo motor with out building up your bottom end can work just as long as you dont " push to much " But thats another discussion .If our pistons from the us N/A guys ended up like that i would be asking about our mixtures and other questions ,Since building motors isnt exactly rocket science. BRP can void any warranties on their products legally as long as they can provide proof that ANY and ALL aftermarket equipment was the reason their product failed . In this case putting forced induction on a motor that wasnt techanically meant to be boosted, Now if they werent able to prove the turbo caused this then we all know how to handle it jsut because you purchased something with cash does not void your warranty EVER ( if you paid cash for a new RS or RT is your warranty void ???? NOPE ) But here you may want to read this since I have dealt with this more times than i want to even think about ( Building race cars/show cars and dealing with the mobile electronics side of things for somewhere since i was 17 yrs old and im 34 now ). Here is a Link to the Magnuson-Moss warranty act incase yall never heard about it . From a professional build the motor before you want to boost . Itll cost you more $$$$ but in the long run its safer. Good luck with a rebuild if you do . I give you kudos for boosting your spyder. I have been thinking about doing something like that recently ... Since its a motor not really designed for boosting you are a pioneer and seems everyone really likes you so I stand up and applaud you for being one of the first to try this route !!!! Good luck .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

:agree:

Paid cash for my Spyder and no problem getting warranty service--- but realize he had a very unique situation when he had the engine replaced at the salt flats. Had the dealer pull engine from floor model and install on his Spyder--- then paid for new engine for dealer to replace the one removed from floor model. Not sure just how that would affect the warranty--but it apparently did...

 

[dave01]

You are right you can't turbo on a stock motor when it's not modfied with the correct parts (pistons, rods, crank and cases and the list goes on and on.....). You can't blame BRP, they build street motors not racing. That's IMHO.


Mike

Sure you can. Keep the boost at 6lbs, run super unleaded and you should not have any issues. I put 42K miles on my 99 Busa with a stage 1 Velocity kit with no issues at all. Its when you try for that little bit of extra hp that it bites you.

 

[docdoru]

Rebuild

Stage 1: New fuel management distribution, 255 High Pressure fuel pump and 630 injectors. Answer only to PM's for details.

 

[Smokinspyder]

The original warranty on the bike/motor etc, is vaild until the dealer can prove it wasnt the fault of the spyder (#1). By saying that because you paid cash is really meaningless. Now because it was being boosted its pretty easy to say warranty void because they didnt design that way . Now had they said the warranty was void because it was boosted well its cut and dry .It wasnt meant to be boosted from the start. Comparing a busa to a spyder no offense its like comparing corvette to a civic .
I didnt add this last post I would LOVE to see pics I hope they are on your spyderlovers page because . If you built it and put you blood and sweat into something you definately deserve kudos !


#1- im REALLY JEALOUS !!!! and do you have any pics we can see PLEASE :bowdown:

 

[NancysToy]

Stage 1: New fuel management distribution, 255 High Pressure fuel pump and 630 injectors. Answer only to PM's for details.

Glad to hear you went this route. I hope you can work around the fuel mapping and timing roadblocks to take full advantage of these mods. I think they are essential for your needs. :thumbup: