Significant progress on talking to CAN Bus on Spyder

[Spyder Monkey]

Open the brake reservoir and push down on the float, simulating a low brake fluid condition. Be gentle, so you don't overflow the corrosive brake fluid...and use a clean tool (or finger) to push down the float. Note that this would indicate the switch position. Unless I am mistaken, the corresponding error code would be interpreted and stored by the processor, so you would be unlikely to see fault codes themselves on the CANbus.

Yeah but they have to be transmitted to the cluster so it can display them.

David

 

[NancysToy]

Yeah but they have to be transmitted to the cluster so it can display them.

David

Not if they are interpreted and stored in the cluster.

 

[Spyder Monkey]

That's great progress! :bowdown:

It would be so cool if one day we could have our own BUDs on the cheap. Maybe not ability to flash software but to clear codes for things like changing your own break fluid, etc.

Keep up the good work man!

Bob

No desire to mess with the firmware that controls this thing. Think of the liability if I introduce a bug that causes the vehicle stability system to freak out and hurt somebody. Remember this thing is somewhat unstable with the nanny.

Nice work. Where are you tapping the bus? If you go with option D I might be able to help there as I have a fair amount of experience in that area.

What I would like is enough info to put my gauges out on WiFi, velcro an old Android phone to my dash and let it mirror image the data to reflect in the windshield as a HUD ;-)

Or something like that.

I'm tapping the bus at the same place BUDS connects. I just bought a mating connector for that 6 pin diagnostic connector. Search earlier posts by me if you want the details. I have all the hardware in hand to hook an Android phone to the diagnostic bus. Understanding the data is another story.

What if you were able to get a hold of a buds tool? Would you be able to crack the code?

It would help very much but I cannot guarantee success. But it is a lot easier to decode the conversation if I could see both sides at once.

The only special tool is the cable, which can be purchased from BRP. BUDS is the software, which is protected as I understand it.

Dunno... this is where I get a little nervous. I have a copy of BUDS software provided to me by someone who wishes to remain anonymous (and I will respect that). I installed BUDS and it never asked for a license key or presented a software terms of use agreement. Of course that does not change that the software is not my property and that I don't know if I can legally reverse engineer it. I'm not really interested in doing anything that would make me lose my PE license.

Congrats on your progress , can bus system is pretty complicated and a big parts of a lot of new cars out there. Rewriting over the programs is going to be a challenge if that's your goal probably not impossible.

It would be nice to desensitize the system a little would make a whole new riding experience :thumbup:

Again, no desire to reprogram. Just want to be able to troubleshoot and do basic maintenance.

David

 

[NancysToy]

The cluster has to get them somehow and the only avenue is the CANBUS.

The cluster doesn't need the fault codes if it reads the sensor and switch inputs directly. It could interpret the inputs and generate the fault codes. Never assume anything.

 

[Spyder Monkey]

Here's the plan:
We've got nothing to lose by asking nicely. I'm going to ask nicely with a polite letter explaining what I want and why I want it. If you want to help, send your own polite letter to the contact information at http://www.brp.com/en-us/company/contact-us/north-america. What you are asking for is the protocol information for your vehicle diagnostic bus.


I also found the following website: http://www.righttorepair.org/main/default.aspx and I was right... this is a big deal in Massachusetts but I don't think it is quite law yet: http://massrighttorepair.com/.

I am not a lawyer nor am I looking for a legal fight. But I know we have at least one lawyer around here. If anyone with professional knowledge of the topics we're discussing wants to help, I'll provide the facts needed to explain the issue.

If anyone has access to that MPI cable or can get a part number / price, I'd be curious to know how much it costs. Maybe we could take up a collection to buy one so we can figure this out and then build a lower cost version.

Thanks for the responses, I'll keep you posted but it is now time for me to start working on things that pay the bills.

David

 

[NancysToy]

MPI-2 Diagnostic Cable is P/N 710000851
MPI-2 Interface Card is P/N 529036018

 

[NancysToy]

It could.
But I don't think that's the way it works.

Until somebody cracks the code, we will never know. I would expect that it may depend on the input. If the local module does the interpretation and generates a fault code, that could be sent throughout the system. The cluster or ECM could then register and store the codes...or they could just be stored locally for retreival by BUDS. I would not count out any possibility. If the fault codes are being broadcast, however, that will take a great deal more discrete bits than just the sensor and switch outputs....and a larger register, longer scan times.

 

[NancysToy]

So I wonder if they are stored locally or in a central register? I'm not sure how the OP would isolate the change of state of the input from the corresponding fault code by the hunt and peck method. Best bet might be to generate a signal from a range of data with an alarm threshold, like coolant temperature, which would result in a single fault code. The data ID would best be found first...then the fault isolated. If it is this complex with the 2008-2012 GS/RS, imagine the chase on the RT and the 2013s. I think I am going to join Bob on this one...my brain is starting to hurt! Give me an Amal Monoblock or a Stromberg 97 any time.

 

[Big Arm]

My head hurts :banghead:

 

[NancysToy]

My head hurts :banghead:

That's so you don't notice your butt hurting after all that riding!

 

[Bob Denman]

This is REALLY starting to sound like an awful lot of Math... :shocked:

 

[qwed1]

CAN bus

Just wanted to let you know that I have access to Vector CANalyzer software at work. We use CAN on some of the devices we manufacture for the off-road industry. Does anyone know if BRP uses J1939 or CANopen protocols? Also, where is a good place to tap into the bus?

 

[Rd_Runner]

Best location for tapping into the CAN bus?

Just wanted to let you know that I have access to Vector CANalyzer software at work. We use CAN on some of the devices we manufacture for the off-road industry. Does anyone know if BRP uses J1939 or CANopen protocols? Also, where is a good place to tap into the bus?

The best location is to use the existing diagnostic port.
This port is located under a plastic access panel on the right side of the bike.
It is visible when you open the front trunk lid.

- Mike

 

[Roadster Renovations]

:shocked: WOW!! :shocked: :2thumbs: :clap::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:
I have absolutely no idea what you just said (THAT happens all the time! ); but I have no doubt that it's going to find a useful home in here somewhere! :thumbup:

Bob, unless I am mistaken, he is talking about deciphering the BUDS language into CAN language. This would be huge in the fact that we could use a CAN defined protocol to do our own diagnostic instead of paying the license fee to BRP each year.

In short, this is taking Microsoft Word and creating a freeware program like Open Office.

 

[Bob Denman]

Having just seen all three of "The Librarian" movies recently: I thought that it might have had something to do with deciphering the Language of the Birds... :joke:

(Hey: it was a rainy Sunday!! :dontknow

 

[Navvet]

So while fun and entertaining, I don't think the current method is likely to get me / us to where we want. I want to know the data protocol well enough to have a basic "BUDS for the shade tree mechanic". I don't want to reprogram keys or change engine timing or override the nanny. I just want to have access to the basic diagnostics.

I have to give back the nice CAN to USB adapter on Monday to my former employer. And even if I had unlimited access to it, it is very time consuming process. I enjoy messing with it but I have to split my time between hobbies and customers who pay for my time and you can guess how that goes.

So I see a few options I wanted to throw out (short of giving up) and see what the board thinks.

Option A: Ask Bombardier nicely for the unrestricted portions of the protocol. Explain why we want it, why they should not hold owners hostage to $125/hr technicians for basic work, why it would increase the desirability of their brand among tech-heads, etc. I seriously doubt that will succeed but it is easy enough that I will probably try for the heck of it. Anybody here have an ear of someone inside BRP that they could put me in touch with? Otherwise I was just going to try their PR department.

Option B: I think there are certain states that require manufacturers to provide the public with access to the same proprietary diagnostic data that they provide to their dealers. I can't find the law right now but I think it was Massachusetts. So if someone is a lawyer or legally inclined to pursue that, we could possibly get the information to decode the protocol.

Option C: If you google the right key words, there are copies of the BUDS installer on the web. I have a copy of BUDS. The installer did not require me to agree to any license restrictions to install it. All of the information we want is encoded in those files. It might be possible to decompile those binaries and extract the information I want. I don't know the legality of what I propose, I certainly do not want to get myself into hot water. I am not a lawyer and am hesitant to do this.

Option D: If there were enough like minded and technically inclined people, I could probably build / find a fairly inexpensive microcontroller system to let others see the same raw data I am seeing. If those folks were willing to help with the cost of hardware development and contribute to software as well, maybe a lot of us working together could figure it out much faster than this lone geek. Plus it would allow RT, ST, and SE5 owners to play along.

I'm leaning toward trying A first and seeing where it leads. Any ideas? Any other input on the tasks?

Under option "D", Do any of the Bytes refer to a "Byte of Raspberry Pi" ???? (sorry, I couldn't stop myself from making that comment ....)

On a more serious note, I have not looked seriously into the can / usb adapters, but it seems to me that you should be able to get a serviceable unit for less than $50 off of e-bay .....

Just my 2 cents worth ....

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Three year old thread opened up by a newbie. But it sure would nice to know if SpyderMonkey ever made any real progress on this. I'm guessing not since he hasn't added any comments since Aug 2013.

 

[Roadster Renovations]

:banghead: Dang, fell for the 'ole dead thread thing again.......:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

 

[fritzer1]

:banghead: Dang, fell for the 'ole dead thread thing again.......:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:

"Dead thread"? Kinda like a lot of the threads with questions that go unanswered, unfortunately.

This thread brings to mind the decades-old movie "2001, A Space Odyssey", with 'HAL', the computer brain of the spaceship.

I feel so helpless on board my beautiful F3T, as though I mustn't piss off my 'nanny' if I want to keep riding.

Power to all you geeks out there, who are attempting to decipher all this tech stuff, which is way over my head. Hopefully, someone will be able to skin this cat, so that I can quickly change my F3T 89t sprocket to 79t to effect touring gearing. Another forum member has already attempted this, but 'nanny' said "Oh noooo you don't!" He probably has already invested a couple grand on this project.

 

[thealexinator29]

Providing recorded messages online?

Hey guys (yes, I know, yet another newcomer who warms up a years old Thread)!
Is there any chance you could provide your recorded can messages online? I am currently at the completion of a project which uses an engine out of an 2008 CAN AM Spyder (visit us on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theHybridKart/?fref=ts). However, it would be very helpful, if we could compare the CAN Messages of a working spyder and the messages our modules send. I think we can also help you at reverse engineering the Diagnostic interface of this vehicle.

Thank you very much,
Alexander G.