RTS Right and Left turn Dissimilar

[IdleUp]

RTS Right and Left turn Dissimilar

My RTS handles completely different in a right hand turn then a left. Using some X-way ramps as a test site, I can go around a 360 degree ramp to the left and it tracks and steers fine - however try the same turn at the same speed on a right turn and the bike over-steers requiring constant correction - this goes on throughout the entire 360 right hand ramp.

I just got her home and don't know it for sure but I'm going to guess it's a toe-in/out problem. As the wheel try to straighten themselves in a turn, it feeds back to the DPS and one thing is fighting the other.

Does anyone else have a problem of this nature?

 

[widowmaker2011]

RTS Right and Left turn Dissimilar

My RTS handles completely different in a right hand turn then a left. Using some X-way ramps as a test site, I can go around a 360 degree ramp to the left and it tracks and steers fine - however try the same turn at the same speed on a right turn and the bike over-steers requiring constant correction - this goes on throughout the entire 360 right hand ramp.

I just got her home and don't know it for sure but I'm going to guess it's a toe-in/out problem. As the wheel try to straighten themselves in a turn, it feeds back to the DPS and one thing is fighting the other.

Does anyone else have a problem of this nature?

I noted it in your other post tonight- Check have your dealer check these things-

1) Reset all DPS settings (zero in). If they do not know how to do this its an indication that they are not adept in the Spyder and need to call tech.
2) Check rear tire alignment, if its off to the left it will cause this , (loves going in left circles , dog-tracks trying to go right)
3) Inspect all ball joints in the front end. I have seen a few that were tight from the factory and this would absolutely cause this if one ball joint was overly tight (not adjustable , replacement only) and not allowing fluid suspension movement.
PM me for more info if this does not help. :doorag:

Brad

 

[MouthPiece]

NO

 

[IdleUp]

Widowmaker your statement:

2) Check rear tire alignment, if its off to the left it will cause this , (loves going in left circles , dog-tracks trying to go right)

Sounds exactly what mine is now doing.

Let me ask you something else - on my old Spyder as I cruise down the highway there is none of this drifting back and forth crap like the RTS does - is this a product of the new softer suspension of the RTS models?

I drove a RT they had at the shop and it drifted as well but not as bad as mine. The dealer said this is part of the air suspension where on the RT you set the pressure but on the RTS the computer (or something else) sets the air pressure.

 

[NancysToy]

I noted it in your other post tonight- Check have your dealer check these things-

1) Reset all DPS settings (zero in). If they do not know how to do this its an indication that they are not adept in the Spyder and need to call tech.
2) Check rear tire alignment, if its off to the left it will cause this , (loves going in left circles , dog-tracks trying to go right)
3) Inspect all ball joints in the front end. I have seen a few that were tight from the factory and this would absolutely cause this if one ball joint was overly tight (not adjustable , replacement only) and not allowing fluid suspension movement.
PM me for more info if this does not help. :doorag:

Brad

I would add:
4) Check the rear swingarm bushings for play
5) Check for rear wheel bearing play
6) Check for a loose axle nut
7) Bounce the rear end to check for a failed shock
8) Check the a-arm bushings for play
9) Check the front wheel bearings for play
10) Set front tire pressure evenly and high enough...at least 15 psi. I prefer more, so you may wish to experiment a bit. Test tire pressure cold...before you ride.

I drove a RT they had at the shop and it drifted as well but not as bad as mine. The dealer said this is part of the air suspension where on the RT you set the pressure but on the RTS the computer (or something else) sets the air pressure.

:yikes: Oh no! Not another one of those dealers that makes it up as they go along. First the alignment using a non-standard means, and now this. Makes you wonder how careful they were with anything.:yikes:

 

[IdleUp]

Thanks I'll go through the bike in the morning!

 

[IWN2RYD]

OK... I for one have lost confidence in your dealer... This is starting to look really bad on their skills or lack there of... I sure hope there is another dealer close for you before something bad happens.. nojoke

 

[IdleUp]

From what I'm hearing you might be right. Seems a waste to have such a high-tech bike yet its so common for the service end to be out of wack.

But as you guys know - be it a BMW Honda or what-ever you got a 50-50 chance of finding a good tech.

 

[Tonga]

I had issues with high speed stability/ twitchy front end but the alignment was done and it is OK now. About turning in corners, I find my left turns much easier then my right turns but I put it to the fact that I am not only holding onto the handlbars but twisting the throttle so maybe I don't pull the same with my right hand as I do with my left. The RT/RTS does command more attention then the GS/RS though especially in the turns.

 

[NancysToy]

I had issues with high speed stability/ twitchy front end but the alignment was done and it is OK now. About turning in corners, I find my left turns much easier then my right turns but I put it to the fact that I am not only holding onto the handlbars but twisting the throttle so maybe I don't pull the same with my right hand as I do with my left. The RT/RTS does command more attention then the GS/RS though especially in the turns.

Typically, a road crowns to the right (in the US), so a right curve or turn is downhill, so to speak, while a left hander goes against the grain. It is not uncomon for a left turn to take more effort or have a different response.

 

[IdleUp]

I really feel most of the problem is the "softer" ride (which it did not need) this causes the body to roll more with dips and wind gusts therefore changing the pivot distances from the DPS to the linkages which would cause the DPS to over react. I noticed when I drove the standard RT which had a much stiffer ride - the steering was considerable improved over the two RTS models that were there.

Evidently, no one at BRP ever drove a Honda or Harley trike - the standard Spyder rides like Mercedes compared to any trike I've owned and therefore didn't need a softer ride. If anything, they should have stiffened the ride and included a better sway bar to prevent the roll factor in turns.

 

[IWN2RYD]

I really feel most of the problem is the "softer" ride (which it did not need) this causes the body to roll more with dips and wind gusts therefore changing the pivot distances from the DPS to the linkages which would cause the DPS to over react. I noticed when I drove the standard RT which had a much stiffer ride - the steering was considerable improved over the two RTS models that were there.

Evidently, no one at BRP ever drove a Honda or Harley trike - the standard Spyder rides like Mercedes compared to any trike I've owned and therefore didn't need a softer ride. If anything, they should have stiffened the ride and included a better sway bar to prevent the roll factor in turns.

I agree with most of what you just said.

Personally, that is the very reason ours has been tightened up and I am quietly waiting for a "Sport" strength anti-sway-bar to help in the turns. Our choice in Ryding environment (Roads) in our area are very hilly and full of curves because of the hilly environment... For us we want less roll and more Umph up front in the suspension. We have a Cadillac Escalade Platinum ESV for the cushy drives :2thumbs:.

I bought this bike and am very happy with it. But just like every single vehicle I have ever purchased I need to expand on the solid foundation they built and customize the the bike to our likes/wants.

Some have purchased this bike to be a total cruiser/touring bike. My wife and I bought ours to be a Cruiser/sport ish bike. And unless someone wants to buy me another RT-s SE5 to keep it as it is... That is what we will be doing to ours, customizing it...

Just like many purchased the RS and turned them into a sport/touring bike.. This is no different. But we like the sitting positions and a few other items that make it an easy choice for us to want the RT-S and customize it vs the RS and do the same thing... :spyder2:

 

[Tonga]

I agree with the fact that this (RT/RTS) is sprung to soft in the Front end and I did buy the Evolution swaybar and it does help but I and I mean "ME" not everyone, needs a sportier ride. I have a set of Elka Shocks for the front end on order just so that I can set up my spring rate and even the dampening for both compression and rebound so It should stop or at least help my get through those tighter turns as those long sweepers aren't to bad. The RT needs to slow down in those tight turns and I don't say I am a crazy driver but do like Spirited driving. BRP does not want the Spyder to do that so the ESP is there to slow everyone down and with low front tire pressures and soft springs the leaning in the turns helps the ESP to cut in.
I also agree that on a windy day the Sypyder does get tossed about and with the soft spring rate it seems to push it from side to side of the driving lane, kind of hard to keep it going straight. An update on the Elkas will come but I have been told 2 weeks for delivery.

 

[Babymoose]

Have you done the easy stuff yet - tire pressures. On my trip last weekend it seemed like the RT would kinda dart a bit on straightaways and twitch on some curves. My daughters were following behind me and said they thought one front tire was lower than the other. It was. I levelled them out at the highest recommended pressures (BRP) and it steered perfect. I had put Dyna beads in through the valve core and re-used the old valve cores - all 3 leaked and just today the tire shop pulled the core right out of the left tire and put in a new one. I hope it is all good now as I am going on a two week trip tomorrow. At ant rate it steers great with 20 psi in the fronts. Hope you get it cured soon & easily.

 

[IdleUp]

Scotty,

I mentioned I wanted to loosen the tie rod ends and turn them a 1/4 turn at a time to see what difference it made in the steering. You mentioned I would not be able to do so because the computer must be zeroed out after each adjustment.

I've been giving this some thought and regarding the zeroing the computer. I fell I differ from your opinion regarding making slight adjustments to the tie-rod ends. Basically, the zeroing out tells the computer where the steering is in relation to the handle bars and the DPS.

If I mark the ti-rod and turn it 1/4 turn at a time then try it - nothing has changed with regard to the DPS and the steering system. The computer is not going to know anything was changed because the only thing that has moved is the tire(s) itself nothing has changed the electronic center of the system.

The main reason I want to do this is to make a minor change in the toe-in/out and see how it affects the DPS in a right or left turn. I'm convinced - my toe-in is incorrect which is why the steering is unstable in a right turn.

I would add:
4) Check the rear swingarm bushings for play
5) Check for rear wheel bearing play
6) Check for a loose axle nut
7) Bounce the rear end to check for a failed shock
8) Check the a-arm bushings for play
9) Check the front wheel bearings for play
10) Set front tire pressure evenly and high enough...at least 15 psi. I prefer more, so you may wish to experiment a bit. Test tire pressure cold...before you ride.


:yikes: Oh no! Not another one of those dealers that makes it up as they go along. First the alignment using a non-standard means, and now this. Makes you wonder how careful they were with anything.:yikes:

 

[NancysToy]

Scotty,

I mentioned I wanted to loosen the tie rod ends and turn them a 1/4 turn at a time to see what difference it made in the steering. You mentioned I would not be able to do so because the computer must be zeroed out after each adjustment.

I've been giving this some thought and regarding the zeroing the computer. I fell I differ from your opinion regarding making slight adjustments to the tie-rod ends. Basically, the zeroing out tells the computer where the steering is in relation to the handle bars and the DPS.

If I mark the ti-rod and turn it 1/4 turn at a time then try it - nothing has changed with regard to the DPS and the steering system. The computer is not going to know anything was changed because the only thing that has moved is the tire(s) itself nothing has changed the electronic center of the system.

The main reason I want to do this is to make a minor change in the toe-in/out and see how it affects the DPS in a right or left turn. I'm convinced - my toe-in is incorrect which is why the steering is unstable in a right turn.

I didn't say you couldn't do it, but I sure would not recommend it. Like most vehicles with center steering, the Spyder has two tie-rods. They must be adjusted exactly equally or they affect the zero of the steering sensors. I am a good mechanic, but I doubt I am good enough to get exactly the same amount on each side...provided the steering was centered in the first place and the wheels were adjusted to that center. That i the reason you adjust as best you can, recheck center, then adjust the sensors to match. You are a braver man than I. If you jump off this cliff, let us know how it works out.

I might add that toe-out will affect turns in both directions, and will also cause reaction to bumps. You might get a different reaction in a right turn on a crowned road, due to geometry, but not on the ramps as you have described. Toe-out would affect both directions equally, if road slopes and turn radius were the same.

One last thought. You are in the middle of getting your dealer to try to correct this under warranty. If you mess with it, I suspect they will charge you if you need them to deal with it further...or reset the sensors. Have you contacted BRP and talked to Carlo? He can put their tech advisors in touch with your dealer to see this is done right.

 

[widowmaker2011]

Scotty,

...................................

If I mark the ti-rod and turn it 1/4 turn at a time then try it - nothing has changed with regard to the DPS and the steering system. The computer is not going to know anything was changed because the only thing that has moved is the tire(s) itself nothing has changed the electronic center of the system.

.......................

The first thing we mentioned was resetting the DPS, have you even called your dealer and asked him if this was done after the alignment? .......I appreciate what your trying to do but you assume the DPS is already zeroed when you do this and also that the side force setting is also correct. Its been mentioned a couple times to you in this thread that is the critical part, if not more critical than the toe. You already have told us it steers different left than right. So the very first place to start is having the DPS set correctly. Hate to sound like a broken record , but the alignment on the Spyder is far more technical than you are giving it credit. I have been in the automotive service field for over 25 years and like you , have technical expertise and would have no issue aligning toe on any vehicle. But thats not the point here. If you had ever seen a proper Spyder alignment done or read the repair manual, you'd know you have been given good advice here about what to do and simply playing with the toe isn't it. Theres a a very specific procedure to follow once you set the toe and its not just zeroing it , there are electronic parameters involved on side force etc. which all by itself can casue the issues you are having, your toe could be perfect or not and without ensuring that part is done, your running in circles. If you want to mess with it yourself , knock yourself out , just know you've been given good advice on the only correct way to do this procedure . Wether you use it or not is your call. :dontknow:

 

[MouthPiece]

CHECKMATE!!!!

 

[IdleUp]

I appreciate the input guys - but it's not like I'm going to change anything that is correct or working right. The steering sucks - My 25K bucket of bolts is sitting in the garage and not even worthy of driving to McDonalds. I own a great looking futuristic 3-wheeled roadster that handles worse than any bike I've owned in my entire life. I'm just about ready to dump this whole Spyder Touring idea and keep my Goldwing trike.

Bottom line, if I mark the tie-rod (from it's present position) and move it 1/4 turn either in our out, to see if the response gets better or worse it's not going hurt anything. I can always put it right back where it was and flop around the highway like it's been doing.

At this point - there has been two separate attempts to align the front end at the dealer and the bike still handles like crap. It's embarrassing to drive the damn thing.

While I'm not an alignment expert - I was doing alignment way back in 1972. It's not rocket science nor is it that difficult - I would bet maybe 70% of the Spyder's out there are not to exact specs. The first time you drop off the side of a dip or hit a good sized pot hole all those exact tolerances go right out the window.

By the way, don't bother calling that wonderful DPS hotline phone number that BRP has because all you get is some blond telling you to call your dealer - Now that was real helpful . . . .

Regards!

 

[widowmaker2011]

I appreciate the input guys - but it's not like I'm going to change anything that is correct or working right. The steering sucks - My 25K bucket of bolts is sitting in the garage and not even worthy of driving to McDonalds. I'm just about ready to dump this whole Spyder Touring idea and keep my Goldwing trike.

Bottom line, if I mark the tie-rod (from it's present position) and move it 1/4 turn either in our out, to see if the response gets better or worse it's not going hurt anything. I can always put it right back where it was and flop around the highway like it's been doing.

At this point - there has been two separate attempts to align the front end at the dealer and the bike still handles like crap. It's embarrassing to drive the damn thing.

While I'm not an alignment expert - I was doing alignment way back in 1972. It's not rocket science nor is it that difficult - I would bet maybe 70% of the Spyder's out there are not to exact specs. The first time you drop off the side of a dip or hit a good sized pot hole all those exact tolerances go right out the window.

By the way, don't bother calling that wonderful DPS hotline phone number that BRP has because all you get is some blond telling you to call your dealer - Now that was real helpful . . . .

Regards!

Good Luck, I truly hope you get it handling the way you want, and unfortunately yes a 1/4 turn either way even equally can affect this in a way you don't suspect, if its not zeroed and the dps unit is exerting slightly more force right or left and lets say you crank out 1/4 turn each. Now the right tire may be tracking straight and the left is out even worse than it was, and now the DPS unit is getting different lateral feed back and pushing one way and not the other because it senses the difference...... etc etc. We are telling you this not by conjecture but because we have seen this before... My last post in this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if you truly are listening. I know you're frustrated but A trip to a competent dealer thats aligns it with the proper tools , checks the things we said and then resets and adjusts the DPS should have your bucket of bolts back in prime form. With the time and bandwidth we've wasted here it could have been done already. I know the 3 dealers within an hour of me all are good at it. If your dealer isn't, find another.