Poor MPG with O2 Modifier

[Bob Denman]

The popping on upshifting with the SE is caused by a momentary ignition cut out to enable the shift, this results in raw fuel being sent to the muffler. When the ignition is returned, the fuel ignites causing the bang. .

That sure could do it... :thumbup:

 

[DrewNJ]

So how would more fuel eliminate the poping? Everyone just drowns the pop with additional fuel?

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[blambert]

Juice Box PRO requires the stock O2 sensor. If you use an O2 modifier with a Powercommander or a Juice Box PRO, you will be too rich. Try your original O2 sensor. The popping on upshifting with the SE is caused by a momentary ignition cut out to enable the shift, this results in raw fuel being sent to the muffler. When the ignition is returned, the fuel ignites causing the bang. The O2 modifier stopped the popping on down shifts. My 2011 RSS with Supertrapp muffler and Juice Box PRO bangs like a rifle on up shifts when cold. Hope this helps.

What is then the need or reason for the o2 modifier?

 

[DrewNJ]

The O2 sensor is for fuel economy only. It tries for an AFR of 14.7. It's like an on/off switch for additional fuel.....back and forth. Looking at a log file it's really inconsistent. However, it is only in the loop when the engine is warmed up, at idle, light throttle cruise, and decel. During acceleration the O2 is ignored.
Other than those areas the ecu reads off the base map and other sensors which is closer to 13.6.
The modifier makes the ecu think the afr is out of range to lean. So the ecu riches things up. But only in the O2 perameters.


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[DrewNJ]

Ideally, the stock system should compensate for mild mods and keep the fueling within range. And it actually does a pretty good job from what I've seen.
I was running an intake and exhaust with no additional fuelling mods and had no issues. Good afr numbers. However, the O2 system on the spyder is really bad and allows for really inconsistent numbers, some of which were leaner than I was comfortable with.
That's why I removed the o2.

You all that are playing with fuelling add ons and not checking afr are playing a dangerous game. You have no clue if your to rich or to lean. And "feel" doesn't work.
Most people drown their machines with fuel.

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[DrewNJ]

Ignition cut on the SE machines and then back on after the shift will for sure cause a pop. I had heard that from another source on a different machine but didn't know if the spyder did the same.

If that is so, you will never have an open exhaust, proper fueling, and not get popping. You will either need to drown the ignition in fuel (which is what I think most do), go back to a stock can, live with the bang, or ditch the SE.

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[NancysToy]

Ideally, the stock system should compensate for mild mods and keep the fueling within range. And it actually does a pretty good job from what I've seen.
I was running an intake and exhaust with no additional fuelling mods and had no issues. Good afr numbers. However, the O2 system on the spyder is really bad and allows for really inconsistent numbers, some of which were leaner than I was comfortable with.
That's why I removed the o2.

You all that are playing with fuelling add ons and not checking afr are playing a dangerous game. You have no clue if your to rich or to lean. And "feel" doesn't work.
Most people drown their machines with fuel.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Ignition cut on the SE machines and then back on after the shift will for sure cause a pop. I had heard that from another source on a different machine but didn't know if the spyder did the same.

If that is so, you will never have an open exhaust, proper fueling, and not get popping. You will either need to drown the ignition in fuel (which is what I think most do), go back to a stock can, live with the bang, or ditch the SE.

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:agree: Nine times out of ten these things are running fat...often way fat because someone is adding fuel at the top to compensated for a pop at the bottom end, or something similar. Mid-range numbers are often horridly rich when tuned by the seat of the pants. If a little is good, more isn't necessarily better.

 

[Bob Denman]

Please pardon my old-fashioned tactics... pps:
What are plug-checks showing? :dontknow:

 

[larryd]

On my 08 SM5 with only a Leo Vince pipe the Evolution 02 eliminator cured all my exhaust popping and I can always run 150 to 170 miles on a tank of gas and the oil smells fine...I have never experienced any noticeable negative effects...larryd

 

[DrewNJ]

Please pardon my old-fashioned tactics... pps:
What are plug-checks showing? :dontknow:

Not going to give you a whole lot of info in regards to fueling. For fueling, Plug checks are only useful to do chops to check at one specific throttle position, typically WOT.
If your super lean up top and fat down low your plugs are going to look OK as long as you do some idling.
Its what we used back in the 2 stroke days because that's pretty much all we had, but even then you had to do your chop correctly or you were wasting your time.. Nowadays with AFR gauges for under 200 clams, plug chops are kind of a waste of time.

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[DrewNJ]

On my 08 SM5 with only a Leo Vince pipe the Evolution 02 eliminator cured all my exhaust popping and I can always run 150 to 170 miles on a tank of gas and the oil smells fine...I have never experienced any noticeable negative effects...larryd

Yep, that's a pretty good setup. Do you get any off idle stumble that you have to clear out, especially after idling for a bit? Are you running with the purge valve blocked/bypassed. Sometimes the idle is a bit rich at the low to mid 12's with the purge blocked and only a pipe with the modifier.
With the purge in operation OR a drop in filter the idle goes much closer to 13. Still rich, but not to far off ideal.

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[capt.jim]

My 2008 has the 02 mod, Leo Vince titanium pipe and the Old Evo Race filter and the purge is blocked. Never had any stumbling or popping.
My mileage is usually 29-31 MPG.
I don't think I would trade my 02 even up for a new PC or JB.

 

[DrewNJ]

My 2008 has the 02 mod, Leo Vince titanium pipe and the Old Evo Race filter and the purge is blocked. Never had any stumbling or popping.
My mileage is usually 29-31 MPG.
I don't think I would trade my 02 even up for a new PC or JB.

It was after our previous conversation that really got me into testing and looking more into how the purge affects the system.
Thank you for the brainstorm sessions!

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[blambert]

It was after our previous conversation that really got me into testing and looking more into how the purge affects the system.
Thank you for the brainstorm sessions!

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i took off the 02 modifier and put my stock 02 sensor in. Going to fill her tomorrow and see about exhaust pop and MPG improvement.

 

[capt.jim]

It was after our previous conversation that really got me into testing and looking more into how the purge affects the system.
Thank you for the brainstorm sessions!

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Yes the brainstorming sessions are great, I always learn something or at least get another view on things to ponder. Of course with the spyder no two things seem to work the same.
I also plugged the purge on my STS SE. It still pops some on the 2nd and 3rd gear shifts, but only half of what is did before.
I have one round, long spare 02 sensor and am looking for another to try on my ST, which has two 02 sensors, if anyone has one they would like to sell.
The 02 on my GS was purchased in 08 and is square and about the size of a matchbox and came from Evoluzione. I am wondering how to tell if they both are the same in regards to the AFR. I guess I should invest in an AFR meter and swap them out on my GS to see.
I would like to know I have 2 matching 02's for this experiment.

 

[larryd]

Yep, that's a pretty good setup. Do you get any off idle stumble that you have to clear out, especially after idling for a bit? Are you running with the purge valve blocked/bypassed. Sometimes the idle is a bit rich at the low to mid 12's with the purge blocked and only a pipe with the modifier.
With the purge in operation OR a drop in filter the idle goes much closer to 13. Still rich, but not to far off ideal.

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No off idle stumble or clean out needed...
I do have the purge valve blocked off...
The bike works and runs perfect at all speeds, couldn't ask for anything better...