Parking Brake Light Will Not Turn Off - Parking brake works! Any ideas?

[Aviator19xx]

2015 Spyder RTL - 11,450 miles.

I've been chasing a problem for over a week with no solution. I'll first explain the symptom and then what I've done to this point.

When this first started, I was at a store parking lot. When I pressed the parking brake switch, the parking brake light would not go off and the parking brake would not release. After several minutes of turning the bike of, then on, and trying again, I finally got the parking brake to release. BUT the red parking brake light on the dash would not go off. I got the bike home and parked it in the garage. After cooling down for several hours, I went out the garage and started the bike, then attempted to release the parking brake. It would not move, no matter what I tried. The parking brake was locked up. Since I was unable to release the parking brake, I did the only thing left to do, which was to loosen the cable at the rear and pull the cable out of its bracket. The next thing I did was pull the right side covers off so that I could see/check the parking brake motor and the brake light switch. After getting the covers off, I found the parking brake in the ON position and the motor would not run... period. So I removed the parking brake motor and tested it on the bench. It was locked up tighter than Fort Knox and would not move in either direction. I removed the cover of the motor to expose the armature and brushes. They looked ok. I decided to remove the armature and clean the armature and brushes with contact cleaner. The brushes looked hardly worn. Anyway, after cleaning and reassembling the motor, I tested it on the bench with a 12-volt battery and it worked perfectly forward and backward. I reinstalled it on the bike and it has worked as it should since then.

The parking brake light will still not turn off, even with the engine running, and the parking brake released. I know the parking brake is off because, 1. - I can push the bike forward and backward with ease; 2. - I have the side covers off and can watch the parking brake wheel roll forward and back. The switch that is engaged by the parking brake wheel is definitely engaged when the parking brake is off. I've tested the switch with a digital ohm meter, and it is working properly. OPEN when the switch is engaged by the wheel and 0 ohms when the wheel moves off the switch. In fact, if the parking brake is OFF when I first turn the key on, the parking brake light is OFF. The first time I push the parking brake switch, nothing happens. ie: nothing moves. But the parking brake light goes on solid. The second time I push the parking brake switch, the parking brake motor runs, the parking brake is now ON, and the light is on solid. Push the parking brake switch again, and the parking brake releases. But the light remains on solid.

Reversing the procedure with the parking brake ON - When I turn the key on, the light is on solid (If I test the parking brake switch manually before I press the switch again, the parking brake light will go off and on as I press and release the switch). Now the first time I press the parking brake switch, the wheel does move, but ever so slightly pulling harder on the parking brake cable (remember the parking brake is already on). Then the second time I press the switch, the parking brake goes OFF, but the light remains on. Press the switch again and the parking brake goes ON. The parking brake continues to work as it should from then on. But the light never goes off and remains on solid.

With the parking brake OFF, and thus the parking brake light switch engaged by the wheel, if I disconnect power to the parking brake motor, the light will go out and not come on again. I've removed the motor and tested it on the bench using a good 12-volt battery, and the motor rotates clockwise and counter-clockwise, when I reverse the 12-volt power to the motor.

Since the parking brake light switch applies a ground to the dash when the parking brake is OFF and OPEN when the parking brake is ON, I disconnected the connector to the parking brake switch; and on the other end of that connector, which goes to the dash connector, I applied a ground and then, because the mating connectors were separated, and OPEN. Yet nothing changed on the instrument cluster.

I've replaced the power brake/windshield module assembly with a new unit, but no changes. I've removed the console and tested the power brake switch per the manual, and it tests good.

Is it possible I have another problem that could be turning the red brake failure/power brake light on and I'm chasing the wrong thing, thinking the reason the red power brake light is remaining on is due to something other than the power brake mechanism? BTW, there are no codes whatsoever showing on the codes screen.

Thanks in advance for any and all help. It is and will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bfromla]

Sounds like good amount of troubleshooting :thumbup: & no codes or audio alarms, just the light - can you look at dash circuit board? And understanding that when it is engaged, it is supposed to flash; solid on when there is a fault - that would have a code. :dontknow:

 

[Aviator19xx]

Regardless of whether the light is off (like when I first turn the key on with the parking brake off) or flashing when I first turn the key on with the parking brake ON, there never are any codes on the dash. That's the perplexing part about this whole situation. Not a single code!

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

On that era of Spyder, low brake fluid level also feeds into the parking brake light. The light will still be on solid, even with the parking brake released. The meaning of the light now becomes brake failure instead of parking brake engaged. With your design of brake fluid reservoir, the fluid level needs to be very full to reset the sensors. Watch the floats inside the ring of the sensors. You want fluid level to be high enough to raise the float slightly above the ring. Make sure the float is not stuck. Also check that the rubber gasket on the underside of the cap did not expand. It will interfere with the float. Just needs pushed back into place.

Typically, low fluid level sets a code (C0049) and orange Brake Failure screen, so not 100 % on this. But, eliminate low fluid level regardless.

Nice job on the motor, BTW.

PS. Codes do not automatically display on their own. You do know how to call them up, right?

 

[Aviator19xx]

Thanks for your input. I checked the brake fluid level as you suggested and stuck my finger in the filler neck of both the front and rear to make sure the floats were "floating". I gently pushed on them with my finger. They did not seem to be stuck in any way. The rear filler cap rubber was pulled down just a tiny bit on the inside ring. I pushed it back flat into the cap and then added maybe a tablespoon of DOT 4 brake fluid. The brake fluid level is now about 3/8" below the lip of the filler hole.

Thanks for the compliment on the motor. FWIW, I couldn't find a NEW PB motor anywhere. That's when I decided to give a shot at cleaning the armature and brushes. There are quite a few used ones though. It's also the same motor that's used on the windshield.

Checking for codes, I push the MODE and SET and TURN SIGNAL CANCEL buttons at the same time. The screen changes to the codes screen. But the codes screen is blank.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Well, it's a little disappointing that your machine isn't "cooperating" with us, and that it isn't giving us more information. As long as your floats look something like this pic, then the fluid level is adequate.

When we call up codes without BUDS, using the buttons, it will only display codes that are active at that exact moment in time when we call them up. It doesn't call up a code history. So, when you pull up the codes, you'll want to have the motor running, the parking brake released, and that parking brake light still ON, indicating that the failure is active right at that moment. If you have all of these bases covered, then I'm at as much of a loss right now as you are. Sleeping on it.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Not sure that I can add anything worthwhile, but here's just a bit of a thoughty from previous problems like this that I've seen in the not recent past - IIRC those 'floats' in the brake reservoir aren't exactly symmetrical discs; I haven't gone out to check, but I believe they're round discs that are sorta wedge shaped, ie. they are thicker/taller on one side of the disc than they are on the other; and if they've rotated in the reservoir so that they can't float right up to where they should be, cos the thicker edge is stuck under the body of the reservoir, you'll get a 'Brake Failure Warning' via that 'always on' Park-brake light!! :banghead:

Usually, a poke or two with a finger or clean probe will let the float spin back around to the way it should be - but then I reckon I've been caught out more than once after trying that, cos then the fluid level really WAS too low!! And it really doesn't take much too much of a low fluid level to give you that solid Park Brake Light! :gaah:

So maybe you could try a bit more float poking & trying to turn the floats around a bit so that it's clear they aren't catching the high sides of their discs under the edge of the reservoir; and even then, there is the possibility that you might still be a bit low on brake fluid, and adding a touch more might help?! Or not... But surely it's worth a shot? :dontknow:

 

[Aviator19xx]

Well, it's a little disappointing that your machine isn't "cooperating" with us, and that it isn't giving us more information. As long as your floats look something like this pic, then the fluid level is adequate.

When we call up codes without BUDS, using the buttons, it will only display codes that are active at that exact moment in time when we call them up. It doesn't call up a code history. So, when you pull up the codes, you'll want to have the motor running, the parking brake released, and that parking brake light still ON, indicating that the failure is active right at that moment. If you have all of these bases covered, then I'm at as much of a loss right now as you are. Sleeping on it.

Thank you for that. I'll try what you suggested this morning and see if there are any codes. Previously, I was checking for codes with the engine off and only the key on. I'll let you know what happens.

 

[Aviator19xx]

Not sure that I can add anything worthwhile, but here's just a bit of a thoughty from previous problems like this that I've seen in the not recent past - IIRC those 'floats' in the brake reservoir aren't exactly symmetrical discs; I haven't gone out to check, but I believe they're round discs that are sorta wedge shaped, ie. they are thicker/taller on one side of the disc than they are on the other; and if they've rotated in the reservoir so that they can't float right up to where they should be, cos the thicker edge is stuck under the body of the reservoir, you'll get a 'Brake Failure Warning' via that 'always on' Park-brake light!! :banghead:

Usually, a poke or two with a finger or clean probe will let the float spin back around to the way it should be - but then I reckon I've been caught out more than once after trying that, cos then the fluid level really WAS too low!! And it really doesn't take much too much of a low fluid level to give you that solid Park Brake Light! :gaah:

So maybe you could try a bit more float poking & trying to turn the floats around a bit so that it's clear they aren't catching the high sides of their discs under the edge of the reservoir; and even then, there is the possibility that you might still be a bit low on brake fluid, and adding a touch more might help?! Or not... But surely it's worth a shot? :dontknow:

Thanks for that suggestion. I'll check the floats again this morning.

 

[Aviator19xx]

Thank you for that. I'll try what you suggested this morning and see if there are any codes. Previously, I was checking for codes with the engine off and only the key on. I'll let you know what happens.

I started the bike. Turned the parking brake OFF. The red brake failure/parking brake light was on. Pressed the 3 buttons to pull up the codes and as before, no codes at all. I am just wondering if the bike were connected to BUDS if something could be reset that is associated with the brake failure/parking brake light light that can't be reset without BUDS?

FWIW, a week or two after I bought the Spyder I drove it to the store for something. When I was leaving the store, had to press the parking brake switch several times to get it to release. Once it released and drove toward home and on the way I had a red brake failure light come on and a flash on the screen "Brake Failure". It was extremely hot outside (heat index was like 112 degrees or something), but the brakes were working just fine. When I got it home checked the brake fluid. The rear one was a tiny bit low. So I topped it off. When I turned on the key the codes screen popped up with a P0000. I disconnected to battery and when I reconnected, the codes screen was blank. ie: the code was cleared. No red brake failure light.

I didn't think anymore about it because everything was working normally for the next few weeks UNTIL the parking brake would not release as I described in my first post.

 

[Aviator19xx]

Thanks for that suggestion. I'll check the floats again this morning.

I did check the floats again. They were floating freely and at the max level. But I poked them a little bit to make sure they were not binding in any way. They were definitely free floating.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I did check the floats again. They were floating freely and at the max level. But I poked them a little bit to make sure they were not binding in any way. They were definitely free floating.

But did you add a little more brake fluid?? :dontknow:

I know you've already done that once, but it's worth a shot to try adding some more - it's not gonna hurt, and it might just solve your issues!

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

So, spent 2 hours on the lawn mower thinking about this. Crazy. Read through it all again twice. You seem to have a good handle on the circuit, and although you didn’t mention it, appear to have a shop manual. But, just in case you don’t...

https://canammanuals.com/product/20...air-and-maintenance-manual-master-collection/

You’ll notice in the manual, that the procedure for removing the motor has you removing the front pulley to gain access. Assuming you did that, the procedure for replacing the front pulley requires a BUDS procedure in order to help it find its correct reference position. That really doesn’t seem related to all this - but you never know - and is the only BUDS thing I can think of. Without a code, nothing to reset.

You also seem to have a good handle on reservoir levels. You actually had a valid low level a few weeks before and corrected that. Even a sensor failure will set a code and there are no codes.

You’re correct that the micro switch sets a ground when closed. On the print you’ll notice that the WPM also ties into that on the high side of the switch, such that, when the switch is closed, the WPM gets a ground also. However, you got yourself turned around on describing switch/ground operation.

When the wheel is engaging the micro switch, it has turned CCW and the parking brake is OFF. In this condition, you said that the switch is OPEN based on your meter. Thus, with the parking brake OFF, the switch is OPEN. In summary, with the parking brake OFF, the switch is engaged by the wheel, the switch is OPEN, the ground is REMOVED. In your sixth paragraph, you said it backwards. The micro switch actually REMOVES the ground when the wheel engages the switch, and the parking brake is OFF. It APPLIES the ground when the wheel turns CW, moving off the switch when the parking brake is ON.

So, I really didn’t follow the other testing you did by disconnecting and applying another ground someplace. Not sure it was valid, anyway. I didn’t re-do your meter readings. They’re pretty straight forward.

All that being said, the ground should be removed when the brake is OFF. When the brake is OFF, the light should be OFF. But it’s not. So, what’s the possibility that there is still a ground that shouldn’t be there? The other odd thing is that you said that the light will go out if you simply unplug the motor. That seems odd. So, I’m wondering...

1 - did the motor windings get damaged when the motor seized and grounded internally? The negative power wire to the motor does not use chassis ground. It goes straight back to the WPM. Could a grounded motor be giving the WPM another path to ground? And causing the motor to still operate weirdly?

2 - is there any wiring damage on the high side of the micro switch circuit grounding the WPM and cluster all the time, keeping the light on?

Didn’t mean to be so long winded. It’s just tough to try to write out the whole ground thing. But, re-read your third paragraph, where you talked about putting the meter on the micro switch. And read your sixth paragraph. You’ll see that you had it backwards, and that may affect your troubleshooting.

 

[Aviator19xx]

Not sure that I can add anything worthwhile, but here's just a bit of a thoughty from previous problems like this that I've seen in the not recent past - IIRC those 'floats' in the brake reservoir aren't exactly symmetrical discs; I haven't gone out to check, but I believe they're round discs that are sorta wedge shaped, ie. they are thicker/taller on one side of the disc than they are on the other; and if they've rotated in the reservoir so that they can't float right up to where they should be, cos the thicker edge is stuck under the body of the reservoir, you'll get a 'Brake Failure Warning' via that 'always on' Park-brake light!! :banghead:

Usually, a poke or two with a finger or clean probe will let the float spin back around to the way it should be - but then I reckon I've been caught out more than once after trying that, cos then the fluid level really WAS too low!! And it really doesn't take much too much of a low fluid level to give you that solid Park Brake Light! :gaah:

So maybe you could try a bit more float poking & trying to turn the floats around a bit so that it's clear they aren't catching the high sides of their discs under the edge of the reservoir; and even then, there is the possibility that you might still be a bit low on brake fluid, and adding a touch more might help?! Or not... But surely it's worth a shot? :dontknow:

I appreciate your suggestion. I did just that again this morning. Unfortunately, no change.

 

[Aviator19xx]

So, spent 2 hours on the lawn mower thinking about this. Crazy. Read through it all again twice. You seem to have a good handle on the circuit, and although you didn’t mention it, appear to have a shop manual. But, just in case you don’t...

https://canammanuals.com/product/20...air-and-maintenance-manual-master-collection/

You’ll notice in the manual, that the procedure for removing the motor has you removing the front pulley to gain access. Assuming you did that, the procedure for replacing the front pulley requires a BUDS procedure in order to help it find its correct reference position. That really doesn’t seem related to all this - but you never know - and is the only BUDS thing I can think of. Without a code, nothing to reset.

You also seem to have a good handle on reservoir levels. You actually had a valid low level a few weeks before and corrected that. Even a sensor failure will set a code and there are no codes.

You’re correct that the micro switch sets a ground when closed. On the print you’ll notice that the WPM also ties into that on the high side of the switch, such that, when the switch is closed, the WPM gets a ground also. However, you got yourself turned around on describing switch/ground operation.

When the wheel is engaging the micro switch, it has turned CCW and the parking brake is OFF. In this condition, you said that the switch is OPEN based on your meter. Thus, with the parking brake OFF, the switch is OPEN. In summary, with the parking brake OFF, the switch is engaged by the wheel, the switch is OPEN, the ground is REMOVED. In your sixth paragraph, you said it backwards. The micro switch actually REMOVES the ground when the wheel engages the switch, and the parking brake is OFF. It APPLIES the ground when the wheel turns CW, moving off the switch when the parking brake is ON.

So, I really didn’t follow the other testing you did by disconnecting and applying another ground someplace. Not sure it was valid, anyway. I didn’t re-do your meter readings. They’re pretty straight forward.

All that being said, the ground should be removed when the brake is OFF. When the brake is OFF, the light should be OFF. But it’s not. So, what’s the possibility that there is still a ground that shouldn’t be there? The other odd thing is that you said that the light will go out if you simply unplug the motor. That seems odd. So, I’m wondering...

1 - did the motor windings get damaged when the motor seized and grounded internally? The negative power wire to the motor does not use chassis ground. It goes straight back to the WPM. Could a grounded motor be giving the WPM another path to ground? And causing the motor to still operate weirdly?

2 - is there any wiring damage on the high side of the micro switch circuit grounding the WPM and cluster all the time, keeping the light on?

Didn’t mean to be so long winded. It’s just tough to try to write out the whole ground thing. But, re-read your third paragraph, where you talked about putting the meter on the micro switch. And read your sixth paragraph. You’ll see that you had it backwards, and that may affect your troubleshooting.

Ps: Wonder if this post qualifies me for Australian citizenship. Kidding Peter.

When I first turn the key on, the parking brake light is either on or off depending on the current position of the parking brake. But the first time I press the parking brake button, the PB motor/wheel doesn't move. If the light is off, it will turn on. The second time I press the PB button, if the PB is off, the PB engages properly. The red light is on steady. Press the PB button the second time and the PB disengages; the wheel turns/motor runs. But the red PB light stays on. When I turn the key off, the 20 seconds of beeping happens regardless of whether the PB is on or off. Going back to when I first turn the key on, if the PB is ON and I just press the roller on the PB light switch and hear it click on and off, the PB light will go ON and OFF. So I know that's working properly. And yes, when I tested the PB light switch, I tested it exactly as the manual states to test it. Oh, and yes, I have a full electronic copy of the maintenance manual.

I'll try to answer your questions:

1 - No, the motor looked perfect and appears to be operating quite well, ie: it was clean and shiny inside and there were no apparent broken wires etc. It rotates clockwise and counterclockwise as it should, both on the bench, tested with a 12-volt battery, and installed on the bike.

2 - I was thinking the same thing while I was working on it. So I disconnected the PB light switch from its mating connector, thinking that if the problem was with the switch, then the light should just go off. Nope, the PB light stays on. So it's definitely not the switch. I even put a manual ground to the connector end going to the instrument cluster. No change to the light. So I'm convinced there is something else causing the red brake failure light to remain on.

I think you may have hit on something, ie: requires the BUDS system to properly position the wheel that's driven by the motor. Even though the wheel, which has an alignment dot on the upper side of where the wheel's upper cam lobe is supposed to align, is absolutely perfectly aligned when the PB is disengaged, it just may require the BUDS system to confirm the alignment is where it's supposed to be. In addition, since I'm not seeing any codes, even with the bike running and me moving the PB from off to on and back, there just may very well be codes that were previously written that only the BUDS system can tell me what they were. So, I bit the bullet and ordered the BUDS package from Can Am Powersports. (https://www.powersports-diag.com/en...5-4_tec_desspost-no/47-powerinterface_unit-no) The whole thing should be here in a few days. I'm hoping this will help me diagnose the problem. I may be calling on you for your expert advice after I do receive the BUDS system software and get it operational on my laptop.

 

[Bfromla]

N/O N/C - Normally Open Normally Closed switches & relay circuits can be troublesome, especially with flimsy micro switches & hidden shorts that don’t blow fuses. :banghead:

 

[Aviator19xx]

N/O N/C - Normally Open Normally Closed switches & relay circuits can be troublesome, especially with flimsy micro switches & hidden shorts that don’t blow fuses. :banghead:

Very true. I've checked/ohm'd out the wiring by splitting the connector of the PB light switch to the instrument cluster connector. There are only two wires; one goes to ground. The other goes to pin 17 of the of the instrument cluster. I've even tested the switch at the instrument cluster connector and it works as it should. IF there was a short somewhere in the harness that was affecting the PB light switch, it would affect it even when I first turn the key on. As mentioned before, when I first turn the key on, if the parking brake is engaged, the micro switch is not engaged, I can move the arm on the micro switch engaging and disengaging the switch and the red light will go off and on just like it's suppose to. But once I press the PB switch on the console the first time, the light comes on and stays on until the key is turned off. I sincerely believe there is something other than the PB system that is causing the red brake fault light to remain on. And I'm hoping the BUDS system will help me diagnose the problem. One thing for sure, I'll be able to see any codes that were previously stored in the system.

BTW. I really like the emoji at the end of your post - banging your head up against the wall.

 

[Flylow]

I don't have a diagram of the ck, but do you know if the lamp is driven directly by the switch or does the switch feed a logic ck which then drives the lamp?

 

[Fulcher1]

Is there any update on this thread?
I have the same problem...