Oil level... No difference cold or hot

[Jcummins]

A recent thread on the Forum about oil capacity on the 1330 motor made me check my oil. I have a used 2020 RTL that had nine hundred miles on it I've got about fifteen hundred on it now. I was surprised to see the oil level check cold at the maximum point on the filler stick. So today I made a point of checking it by the manual when it was hot within 2 minutes to turning it off and it's at the exact same level. I'm not sure what to make of that because it seems to be counter against everything that I've read about the oil checking on this spider.

What is the issue here?

 

[Peter Aawen]

If you are using the correct Oil Checking Method as per the manual (which calls for the oil to be at operating temp, doesn't it? :dontknow: ) and the oil level shown on the Dipstick is NOT over the FULL level when you do, then bluntly put, you really have NO issue, at least in the Oil Level regard!! hyea:

It could be like that for any number of reasons, none of which are likely to be a problem - heck, you were probably just lucky in the way your Spyder was assembled..... there again, maybe ALL the latest Spyders are like that - how many 'new owners' out there are likely to have deliberately used a 'not recommended' method to check their oil level & see what that says?!? Or maybe you just fluked on the right way to hold you tongue while you did the 'Non-Recommended' Cold Oil level Check - but at it's simplest, the result you got from the 'Non-Recommended' check method is irrelevant & it's useless to worry about it at all. :lecturef_smilie:

The thing that's REALLY of concern is that your Spyder's oil level checks out correct when you use the correct checking method, so that's all that really matters! And that's telling you your oil level is fine!! :clap:

Ride More, Worry Less! :cheers:

 

[gunner]

I’m with you, I also have a 2020 same thing. BRP explanation please.

 

[BajaRon]

I’m with you, I also have a 2020 same thing. BRP explanation please.

I am NOT BRP. But I can tell you that there are anti-drain back components which are designed to keep the crankcase from overfilling during operation. In a perfect world, these would completely prevent any oil from siphoning back to the crankcase when not operating. However, you cannot count on these mechanisms to do this all the time, every time. If they do, GREAT! But if they don't, and you check your oil cold. You will end up overfilling and creating issues.

So, regardless of how reliable your cold oil level checks are. You should never trust them. Just do it the book way and save yourself the potential grief.

 

[EdMat]

I would bet that if you checked it 5 times cold just before doing 5 rides you would notice a variance. Mine can be anywhere from almost the max mark to barely touching the stick when its cold then always perfect when its hot.

 

[Jcummins]

I’m with you, I also have a 2020 same thing. BRP explanation please.

So I'm not just a bumbling old man that can't read a dipstick. That's a relief.

 

[2dogs]

No you are not Jcummins. I've changed the oil on my 1330 a number of times and I've checked it, I don't know how many times. It always shows the same level on the dipstick. I don't post my oil checking experiences on here often because of the negative comments that follow. So, you are not alone in your experience of finding that your oil checks out at the same level hot, cold, or in between.

 

[teninospyder]

No you are not Jcummins. I've changed the oil on my 1330 a number of times and I've checked it, I don't know how many times. It always shows the same level on the dipstick. I don't post my oil checking experiences on here often because of the negative comments that follow. So, you are not alone in your experience of finding that your oil checks out at the same level hot, cold, or in between.

I have always found the same thing every time I check my oil in our 2014RTL. NO DIFFERENCE in readings. Like here, I have read every post on this subject to find no real answer. NOT ARGUING...just adding to the number of posts stating my experience.

 

[bigbadbrucie]

I have always found the same thing every time I check my oil in our 2014RTL. NO DIFFERENCE in readings. Like here, I have read every post on this subject to find no real answer. NOT ARGUING...just adding to the number of posts stating my experience.

Hmmmm.....I’ve never bothered to check mine cold (2014 RTS-SE6), I’ve always checked just after a ride. (I’ve always believed what the manual says). Also, I have to admit that I’ve grown lax in checking it as in the years that I’ve owned this unit, I’ve NEVER been low on oil, and it’s been a pain and didn’t make sense to me to check it AFTER a ryde.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Hmmmm.....I’ve never bothered to check mine cold (2014 RTS-SE6), I’ve always checked just after a ride. (I’ve always believed what the manual says). Also, I have to admit that I’ve grown lax in checking it as in the years that I’ve owned this unit, I’ve NEVER been low on oil, and it’s been a pain and didn’t make sense to me to check it AFTER a ryde.

Not too many of the 1330 motors have ever used much oil anyway, that 'uses a quart or so every 1000 miles' thing seems to be largely a (recognised) V-twin thing - not a problem per se, more just an integral part of running that particular high revving motor.

But seriously, if you use the recommended oil level checking method & it never shows any level change, where's the issue? :dontknow: Sure, we know that there is no sump on these things where you can check the oil level while it's cold, and that as soon as those engine driven scavenge pumps stop there's a risk of oil draining back into the depths of the motor if you leave it for too long, AND that the oil itself can expand somewhat in volume between its cold & operating temps; so checking the oil level when the engine hasn't been run recently & the oil is cold is not recommended due to the risk of over-filling and therefore potentially blowing some seals or worse, but that's WHY the manual says to check the oil level when it's at operating temp, isn't it?? So where's the problem when that always shows the oil is at the correct level?

 

[bigbadbrucie]

Peter, I’ve never said there was a problem....I was only commenting on a previous post. I’m very pleased with my unit. It runs flawlessly and my dealer as well as their technician is outstanding. They do ALL of my service work and have since day 1.

 

[Jcummins]

Not too many of the 1330 motors have ever used much oil anyway, that 'uses a quart or so every 1000 miles' thing seems to be largely a (recognised) V-twin thing - not a problem per se, more just an integral part of running that particular high revving motor.

But seriously, if you use the recommended oil level checking method & it never shows any level change, where's the issue? :dontknow: Sure, we know that there is no sump on these things where you can check the oil level while it's cold, and that as soon as those engine driven scavenge pumps stop there's a risk of oil draining back into the depths of the motor if you leave it for too long, AND that the oil itself can expand somewhat in volume between its cold & operating temps; so checking the oil level when the engine hasn't been run recently & the oil is cold is not recommended due to the risk of over-filling and therefore potentially blowing some seals or worse, but that's WHY the manual says to check the oil level when it's at operating temp, isn't it?? So where's the problem when that always shows the oil is at the correct level?

I don't think anybody thought it was a problem just a lack of understanding of what we're dealing with.

 

[2dogs]

I don't think anybody thought it was a problem just a lack of understanding of what we're dealing with.

I believe Baja Ron explained it quite clearly. Some sumps leak out and some sumps don't. Those of us who don't have leaky sumps are looked upon with suspicion and skepticism by those who have leaky sumps.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

A recent thread on the Forum about oil capacity on the 1330 motor made me check my oil. I have a used 2020 RTL that had nine hundred miles on it I've got about fifteen hundred on it now. I was surprised to see the oil level check cold at the maximum point on the filler stick. So today I made a point of checking it by the manual when it was hot within 2 minutes to turning it off and it's at the exact same level. I'm not sure what to make of that because it seems to be counter against everything that I've read about the oil checking on this spider.

What is the issue here?

As I see it the issue is not hot or cold. It is time. The volume change cold to hot for oil is insignificant. The viscosity is another matter. There is a drain from the oil tank back into the engine sump. Hot oil will drain faster than cold oil, and the only time the oil is hot is, of course, after running the engine. The drain down is more like a trickle than a gush. How long it takes for the oil to drain down, I don't know. But what I can tell you is the tank will drain down completely in due time. I just now checked the oil level in my RT. The engine hasn't been run for a couple of months. The dip stick was dry, dry like a desert scorched jackrabbit skeleton! This is exactly the same as I reported here either last year or the year before. At that time after I started the engine and rode for a few miles I checked the oil right after shutting down. It was on the full mark! While running the engine, oil is circulated into and out of the tank and the level builds up in the tank.

So don't concern yourself with the difference between cold and hot oil. Just be sure to check it soon after shutting the engine down and before a significant portion of it drains down from the tank into the engine sump. Now, I would say if you check the level after a couple of weeks with the engine not running, and it hasn't dropped from the hot level, then there is good reason to question what is going on.

 

[BajaRon]

As I see it the issue is not hot or cold. It is time. The volume change cold to hot for oil is insignificant. The viscosity is another matter. There is a drain from the oil tank back into the engine sump. Hot oil will drain faster than cold oil, and the only time the oil is hot is, of course, after running the engine. The drain down is more like a trickle than a gush. How long it takes for the oil to drain down, I don't know. But what I can tell you is the tank will drain down completely in due time. I just now checked the oil level in my RT. The engine hasn't been run for a couple of months. The dip stick was dry, dry like a desert scorched jackrabbit skeleton! This is exactly the same as I reported here either last year or the year before. At that time after I started the engine and rode for a few miles I checked the oil right after shutting down. It was on the full mark! While running the engine, oil is circulated into and out of the tank and the level builds up in the tank.

So don't concern yourself with the difference between cold and hot oil. Just be sure to check it soon after shutting the engine down and before a significant portion of it drains down from the tank into the engine sump. Now, I would say if you check the level after a couple of weeks with the engine not running, and it hasn't dropped from the hot level, then there is good reason to question what is going on.

I agree that "Hot or Cold" isn't going to give you enough volume change to make a difference. It's how much is in the reservoir and how much is in the crankcase sump that can give you variations in oil level with the same total volume of oil in the machine. But I do not think it true, at least with our Spyders, that the reservoir will 'Drain down completely' over time. I am ashamed to say that I've let my Spyder sit for over a year, and the oil level only went down about 1/2 quart in the reservoir. I think that once the crankcase gets to a certain point, no more oil will drain from the reservoir. Certainly, a year is long enough for the reservoir to drain completely if it is going to do so.

The bottom line, of course, is if you want to be sure you're getting an accurate oil level reading on your Spyder. Check it hot. It is the only way to guarantee that both the engine oil sump and the oil reservoir have reached their correct levels.

 

[2dogs]

I agree that "Hot or Cold" isn't going to give you enough volume change to make a difference. It's how much is in the reservoir and how much is in the crankcase sump that can give you variations in oil level with the same total volume of oil in the machine. But I do not think it true, at least with our Spyders, that the reservoir will 'Drain down completely' over time. I am ashamed to say that I've let my Spyder sit for over a year, and the oil level only went down about 1/2 quart in the reservoir. I think that once the crankcase gets to a certain point, no more oil will drain from the reservoir. Certainly, a year is long enough for the reservoir to drain completely if it is going to do so.

The bottom line, of course, is if you want to be sure you're getting an accurate oil level reading on your Spyder. Check it hot. It is the only way to guarantee that both the engine oil sump and the oil reservoir have reached their correct levels.

I braved the storm this morning and made my way out to the barn where my spyder is locked up and has been in deep slumber mode on a battery maintainer since last November. I pulled its oil dip stick and checked the fluid level. The level showed to be in the middle of the "add oil zone" on the dipstick. (That's between the end of the stick and the first black dot, the next black above that would be the full mark, I know there are a number of different oil dipsticks out there.) I checked it twice and it showed the same thing. Exactly just how much oil (volume-wise) that indicates that has drained out of the sump, I have no idea. I've never had to add any oil between oil changes. So, I guess I'm now a member of the leaky oil sump club. LOL I think I'll check my oil levels this spring when I fire up my machine for the first time this year. Once after it idles down after startup. Once after the first fan shut off and then again after the second fan shut off. After that I'll ride for 5 miles and check it once more. If i remember, I'll post my findings, if I remember that is.

 

[SNOOPY]

This thread started about the 1330 engine, but I assume the procedure is the same for the 998?

Checking hot I assume after a long ride, or can it be running around the block and just starting to show on the temp gauge a couple bars?

Guessing when just starting to show on temp gauge a couple bars it is at normal operating temp and oil should be at full flow and can be shut off and checked? That’s how I’ve been checking.

.

 

[Peter Aawen]

This thread started about the 1330 engine, but I assume the procedure is the same for the 998?

Checking hot I assume after a long ride, or can it be running around the block and just starting to show on the temp gauge a couple bars?

Guessing when just starting to show on temp gauge a couple bars it is at normal operating temp and oil should be at full flow and can be shut off and checked? That’s how I’ve been checking.

.

Yeah, NO! :lecturef_smilie:

The coolant will get up to its operating temp a fair bit quicker than your oil, so using the 'short ryde around the block & temp up a couple of bars' probably isn't going to be ideal as far as oil temp & volume is concerned. :shocked: . I believe BRPcare actually posted some info on the way oil volume changes with its temperature increase a while back, and while it probably isn't a massive volume increase, BRP Cares suggested that it was enough to be concerned about.

Over to you! :cheers:

Edit: username = BRPcare & there's 2 stickies in the ACE 1330 Shop Talk section talking about this - the temp/volume constraints remain the same regardless of which engine. . If you want to search more, go to Advanced Search, put 'Oil' in the keyword/search string field, and 'BRPcare' in the 'Find latest posts by User' field. There'll probably be a few threads listed in the results, but it's not likely to be multiple pages of them, so it's probably only a little bit of reading... :thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

Yeah, NO! :lecturef_smilie:

The coolant will get up to its operating temp a fair bit quicker than your oil, so using the 'short ryde around the block & temp up a couple of bars' probably isn't going to be ideal as far as oil temp & volume is concerned. :shocked: . I believe BRP Cares actually posted some info on the way oil volume changes with its temperature increase a while back, and while it probably isn't a massive volume increase, BRP Cares suggested that it was enough to be concerned about.

Over to you! :cheers:

True that... The gauge shows you coolant temp. Not oil temp. You can idle your engine until you have the normal number of bars and your oil will still be cold. Idling that long is not good for your engine either. To generate enough heat to get your oil to 220 degrees takes a bit more effort on the engine's part.

 

[EdMat]

Checking hot I assume after a long ride, or can it be running around the block and just starting to show on the temp gauge a couple bars?

.

If that trip around the block is at least 9 miles long you should be good to check it.