Oil level check results confusing to me

[AeroPilot]

Like Ron and others have said the newer designs require us to learn new ways to check oil. I am impressed with the efficiency of Rotax engines and I have seen a variety of oil levels when I tried to check the engine without being fully warmed up and guess that the pumps lobes position sometimes stop in a closed position, sometimes open a crack (or due to wear tolerances) allowing drainback and that can change results.

I did just change oil and filter again at 49,600 miles with the required 5 quarts measured added, and after a long ride it checked with the level just under the M in MAX---just where I like it.

Thats all I got - and I have learned to change to this predictable procedure...

 

[BajaRon]

To add a few things to what BajaRon said..........there is a great number of reasons why a dry sump oiling system has advantages over a wet sump system. It is not a design flaw and any dry sump system you find will have approximately the same method of checking the oil. A dry sump system is ideal for motorcycles, since it allows for a small, shallow crankcase and reduces the bulk of the engine. It also allows the engine to sit lower in the frame, keeping the center of gravity down. The additional oil in the dry sump system is stored in a separate tank. This allows for any amount of oil to be used in the engine simply by varying the size of the remote tank. The oil in a dry sump system also carries some of the heat away from the crankcase where it can dissipate around the oil tank or the lines leading to and from it. It also allows for the optional oil cooler in the lines. The oil tank can be located any place on the vehicle. It does not need to be part of the lower crankcase.

In a wet sump system, like most cars with 7 or more quarts right in the oil pan of the engine, the G forces of cornering, acceleration, and braking will move the oil to one side or the other of the oil pan. This sloshing around of oil can cover / uncover the crankshaft, since it runs in the same space as the oil storage. It also adds to the foaming effect and could uncover the oil pump resulting in cavitation and oil starvation. The crankshaft running in the oil stored in the pan of a wet sump system cuts the engine horsepower.

Simply checking the oil when you park the bike or get gas is all that is needed. No reason to redesign a perfectly good system. The dry sump system has many advantages on small engines. The number of minutes after you shut the engine off it not that critical just as long as it is within a reasonable time. I think probably they put a certain number in the books to keep 50 people a day from calling and asking how long to wait.

Exactly right!

Dry sump is just a better way to do things. Frankly, BRP would be foolish to use any other system. Like going from 2 wheels to 3. Going from wet sump to dry sump takes some getting used to, requiring some changes by the user. But it's all good in the end!

Wet sump is fine for cars/trucks, etc. It's a simpler, less expensive system. The engine in these vehicles can sit as low as needed and still have plenty of room for a deep, conventional oil pan. But even a few inches of motor height makes a world of difference in a motorcycle or similar application.

 

[Gwolf]

1936 Harley Davidson Knucklehead Engine, first Harley engine ever to use the dry sump, recirculating oil system. Dry sump systems are certainly not some new idea or recent design.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/why-harley-davidsons-have-dry-sump-engines

Just one example of the benefits of dry sump. It is not a dry, boring topic.

https://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-84-dry-sumps-dave-lives/

 

[BajaRon]

1936 Harley Davidson Knucklehead Engine, first Harley engine ever to use the dry sump, recirculating oil system. Dry sump systems are certainly not some new idea or recent design.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/why-harley-davidsons-have-dry-sump-engines

Just one example of the benefits of dry sump. It is not a dry, boring topic.

https://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-84-dry-sumps-dave-lives/

Still, the dry sump oil system is new to some people.... But you're right. Dry sump technology has been around for a long time.

 

[PMK]

Still, the dry sump oil system is new to some people.... But you're right. Dry sump technology has been around for a long time.

Aircraft radial engines are dry sump and likely predate the Harley by a decade or two..

 

[PMK]

Exactly right!

Dry sump is just a better way to do things. Frankly, BRP would be foolish to use any other system. Like going from 2 wheels to 3. Going from wet sump to dry sump takes some getting used to, requiring some changes by the user. But it's all good in the end!

Wet sump is fine for cars/trucks, etc. It's a simpler, less expensive system. The engine in these vehicles can sit as low as needed and still have plenty of room for a deep, conventional oil pan. But even a few inches of motor height makes a world of difference in a motorcycle or similar application.

BRP / Rotax would be brilliant to step away from the current design. For such a modern engine, it was foolish to go with shared gearbox and engine oil. Yes it works, but the engine would benefit from better oil additives that sadly the clutch does not like, and the gearbox could shift better with a dedicated gearbox oil that may not be suitable for the engine.

 

[BajaRon]

BRP / Rotax would be brilliant to step away from the current design. For such a modern engine, it was foolish to go with shared gearbox and engine oil. Yes it works, but the engine would benefit from better oil additives that sadly the clutch does not like, and the gearbox could shift better with a dedicated gearbox oil that may not be suitable for the engine.

You realize that you are advocating for added expense, added weight, added bulk (size), and additional complexity. Not to mention greater maintenance time and cost. All with no real advantage. Quite suitable, well performing lubricants at a reasonable price are easily gotten for the current system. And after over 10 years of Spyder production, I have not heard of a single owner complain of a worn out motor or transmission. Granted, some have destroyed their wet clutch by using the wrong oil. This is unfortunate, but completely avoidable. Not a good reason to abandon what I consider the best approach possible for the Spyder. Every option has a downside.

Honda, BMW, Kawasaki, Suzuki, KTM, Ducati and most other motorcycle manufacturer's use this same design because it fits the bill and works so well. Even Harley uses this in the V-Rod. Most of the motorcycles using separately cased drive systems do it more for nostalgia than anything else.

BRP and the Spyder do have some issues. What mechanical devise doesn't? Room for improvement? Sure! Just not in this particular case.

 

[JayBros]

...Simply checking the oil when you park the bike or get gas is all that is needed. No reason to redesign a perfectly good system. The dry sump system has many advantages on small engines. The number of minutes after you shut the engine off it not that critical just as long as it is within a reasonable time. I think probably they put a certain number in the books to keep 50 people a day from calling and asking how long to wait.

Common sense is an uncommon virtue.

 

[filbert]

I suspect drain back is affected by how tight or loose the engine is
due to mfg tolerances and normal wear!

I do know that hot oil takes up more space than cold oil!

The coefficient of thermal expansion for engine oil is .00039
Say 60F is ambient temp and 200F is operating temp = 140F temp rise
140 *.00039 = .0546 = 5.46%
If you have 5.2 Qt oil at 60F you will have 5.48 Qt at 200F (By volume)
That’s 4.54 Oz additional oil by volume hot/cold!

I thought I’d run that up the flagpole and see how it waves!

 

[kissfan]

So, can someone decipher this oil level check step? I 'assume' it's written in Canadian :dontknow:

3. Let the engine idle for 10 minutes at least 20 seconds.

 

[Doug44]

I am a new RT owner here and today after riding my 2020 with 800mi I did as the book said. I rode it for 9 mi or more then pulled it into my level garage floor and let it idle for 10 mins. (I really don't GET THIS STEP) While idle the fans came on/off several times. I then shut it off and quickly checked the oil within 2 mins again per owners manual. My oil was clear and clean it was almost impossible to see on the dip stick. But the best I could determine it was low. I could see it on the bottom of the dip stick but unsure how far up. I didn't add any but I guess I will run it by my dealer and have the Spyder tech take a check. I really hate to bash CAN AM but this whole procedure just seems strange especially letting it idle for 10 mins after riding it 9 miles or more.

 

[fatboy]

y is this so hard for some people

 

[Steve W.]

y is this so hard for some people

It's not just the people, it's the manufacturer, too. :dontknow:

I fully understand the concept of a dry sump system. What I DON'T understand is, ... if there is a separate reservoir to hold the oil, how is it leaking out of there, back into the engine? There is an oil pump that draws out of the reservoir to supply the engine. There are multiple scavenging pumps to pump oil from the engine back to the reservoir. You stop the engine, the oil stops moving, too. Or does it? Apparently oil slowly moves back to the engine sump, then has to be warmed up for an ungodly length of time and circulated back through the reservoir before its quantity can be checked.

THAT is the part that is so hard for so many of us.

Yes, the level might go up or down a bit based on temperature, but it's not going to change that much.

.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I am a new RT owner here and today after riding my 2020 with 800mi I did as the book said. I rode it for 9 mi or more then pulled it into my level garage floor and let it idle for 10 mins. (I really don't GET THIS STEP) While idle the fans came on/off several times. I then shut it off and quickly checked the oil within 2 mins again per owners manual. My oil was clear and clean it was almost impossible to see on the dip stick. But the best I could determine it was low. I could see it on the bottom of the dip stick but unsure how far up. I didn't add any but I guess I will run it by my dealer and have the Spyder tech take a check. I really hate to bash CAN AM but this whole procedure just seems strange especially letting it idle for 10 mins after riding it 9 miles or more.

If you don't mind A- wasting time or B- wasting gas .... do it like the book says, however me and thousands of others here .... only check the oil level after a ride of at least 10 minutes . So Unless there is a hugh oil puddle under the Spyder when you want to ride again - the level will be fine ...... :congrats: ..... Mike hyea:

 

[EdMat]

I am a new RT owner here and today after riding my 2020 with 800mi I did as the book said. I rode it for 9 mi or more then pulled it into my level garage floor and let it idle for 10 mins. (I really don't GET THIS STEP) While idle the fans came on/off several times. I then shut it off and quickly checked the oil within 2 mins again per owners manual. My oil was clear and clean it was almost impossible to see on the dip stick. But the best I could determine it was low. I could see it on the bottom of the dip stick but unsure how far up. I didn't add any but I guess I will run it by my dealer and have the Spyder tech take a check. I really hate to bash CAN AM but this whole procedure just seems strange especially letting it idle for 10 mins after riding it 9 miles or more.

If you have ridden for 9 miles or 90 miles I would just turn it off in a level spot, let it set 30 seconds and read it. That's what I have found works. I have no idea how the oil slowly leaks back out of the sump into the engine/trans but it does. Check it like you should, leave it for a day or two and recheck it cold. If it's like mine nothing will show up on the dipstick.

No puddles, no worries, at least on the 1330's.

 

[JayBros]

It's not just the people, it's the manufacturer, too. :dontknow:
...Yes, the level might go up or down a bit based on temperature, but it's not going to change that much.

The manufacturer probably knows much more than you think. If you are willing to accept the fact that in motorcycle engines in which the engine and transmission share the same oil, the viscosity of various oils that meet the API service code specified by the manufacturer shear down, some more quickly and to a greater degree than others, over time and mileage. You can verify this by running various oils and analyzing them. The end result can show up in checking the dipstick at identical times after shutting off the engine. If you check the dipstick in which the oil has sheared down to mid-20 weight, more oil will drain back into the crankcase than an oil such as Amsoil Metric Full Synthetic 10W-40 which withstands shearing down extremely well. In hot engines, ones run 9 miles or more, after two minutes Issac Newton taking over will have a greater effect on lighter weight oil. Ergo, the engineers tell us to check the dipstick within 2 minutes for standardization because they don't know how many Spyder owning blokes will be running the multitude of oils that meet the specified API service codes they specify, but the 2 minute limit has been proven to them, the engineers, to be a reasonable time to do the dipstick check wherein the various weights will have approximately the same amount of drain-back into the crankcase and give fairly standard readings. After the two minutes, the variations in sheared down oil weights can result in substantially different dipstick readings.

 

[SteveLaoyster]

If you have clean oil you need to put the dipstick on a colored paper towel to see where the oil is. You can use a white one but with a colored one you can see the oil on the towel easier. I've done this many times.

 

[Doug44]

If you don't mind A- wasting time or B- wasting gas .... do it like the book says, however me and thousands of others here .... only check the oil level after a ride of at least 10 minutes . So Unless there is a hugh oil puddle under the Spyder when you want to ride again - the level will be fine ...... :congrats: ..... Mike hyea:

Makes more sense than the owners manual Mike and I want to take you for this reply. I appreciate this common sense procedure coming from a Honda Gold Wing I know nothing about the Spyder but understand loud and clear what you are saying and the point is well taken

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I fully understand the concept of a dry sump system. What I DON'T understand is, ... if there is a separate reservoir to hold the oil, how is it leaking out of there, back into the engine? There is an oil pump that draws out of the reservoir to supply the engine. There are multiple scavenging pumps to pump oil from the engine back to the reservoir. You stop the engine, the oil stops moving, too. Or does it? Apparently oil slowly moves back to the engine sump, then has to be warmed up for an ungodly length of time and circulated back through the reservoir before its quantity can be checked.

THAT is the part that is so hard for so many of us.

Read these three threads from a few months ago. You'll get a much more clear understanding of the whole dry sump system of the 1330 engine, oil refill quantities, and oil level checking process. The first one is long but there's a lot of info in it, both verifying and dispelling several opinions.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?130192-oil-capacity-1330

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?130653-Oil-change-by-suctioning

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?119432-Check-oil-level-hot-or-cold

 

[RideOn]

FWIW, Harley Davidson also recommends oil level check with hot engine.