• There were many reasons for the change of the site software, the biggest was security. The age of the old software also meant no server updates for certain programs. There are many benefits to the new software, one of the biggest is the mobile functionality. Ill fix up some stuff in the coming days, we'll also try to get some of the old addons back or the data imported back into the site like the garage. To create a thread or to reply with a post is basically the same as it was in the prior software. The default style of the site is light colored, but i temporarily added a darker colored style, to change you can find a link at the bottom of the site.

Not feeling the magic.......

and your not getting mine back!!

Hard to say which was the best improvement, Laser Align or Ron Bar:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now with Elkas, I feel the bike is perfect. Of course it's all about confidence, so it may be just be that I expected it to better.:clap:
 
I would say that you have entered 'Stage 2' of the Spyder riding experience. Personally, I think everyone goes through the same stages. It's just that some get through more quickly than others.

Once you get through 'Stage 1', which is the understanding/confidence building/relax and enjoy the ride stage. You get to 'Stage 2', which is the skills enhancement stage. In this stage, 'SMOOTH' is the primary goal. Move smooth, steer smooth, throttle smooth, brake smooth. It doesn't mean you can't be aggressive. On the contrary, the smoother you become, the more aggressive you can be with less interference from the Nanny and less issues through curves.

To me this is the fun stage. And to be honest, I don't think anyone ever actually graduates from this stage.

I like this framework. I'm also at stage 2. I wonder if there's a stage 3!:dontknow:
 
Did we make a25k mistake? NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The thought went through my wife's and I's minds when we first rode our new Spyder.

Tire pressure, shocks stiffer, Ron bar. Then took the mindset ride it like you stole it, go high into the curve cut to the inside like your road racing the fastest line. Then the light went on and 28k miles later my Spyder is the most relaxing ride I've ever owned and when I have the chance I'll leave the Harley boys in my dust (without mama on the back) 😜 Riding time, riding time the light will go on.

Gary:doorag:
 
Magic

My first test ride on a Spyder was a RT about four years. When we got off my wife said in no certain terms there is no way I'm riding on the back of that piece of crap! It was probably the worst experience I ever had on a motorcycle. I continued to ride my BMW RT1100RT with great Joy and my wife smiling. Today I ride a 2011RT A/C and love it. I can only say that the dealer Spyder wasn't setup properly at all! I have since added Ron's bar and had it aligned by Mike the inventor of the laser alignment system. I still wish I could ride my BMW but that day has passed. Hang in there and you'll be fine. :yes:
 
The last alignment I performed was for a gentleman who didn't think he had a problem but had read enough to convince him that he ought to at least have it checked out. He was out of alignment but not horror story out. We got him dialed in as it should be and he did his test ride. He was amazed at the difference it made. That was not because we are miracle workers, but because the ROLO system is that good.

It wasn't me, but the gentleman described here could have been me. I had laser alignments on both my spyders. Before alignment, one was one inch off, and the other wasn't too bad. I was amazed at the difference riding both bikes. Definitely feel more confident and relaxed in turns and on highways. (Interestingly, I did not like the laser alignment at first. It took me 10 miles to get used to the new alignment.)

Several people have posted about 500 miles not being enough experience to get used to a spyder. My observation was that my brand new spyder also evolved over the first 1,000 miles. It felt different at 300, 500, 800 miles, and following its first service. Since I was already experienced with a used spyder, I know the difference wasn't just me getting better, but the spyder breaking in too.

My advice to someone with a new Spyder is to wait until you have at least 800 miles on it before trying to improve the ride. Then go for it. The laser alignment worked for me. My older spyder was also helped by a better windshield to cut buffeting. Haven't tried a sway bar yet. There's lots of other good advice on this thread too.
 
Responding to some folks who asked:

DJFaninTN @ comment 44: My tires were at 20.5 psi each. The dealer told me to get religion about checking them. I even bought a fancy-schmantzy electronic tire gauge.

SpyderAnn01 @ comment 50: I live just North of Montgomery. Who/what is ISCI, and who is Jeff? Yes, I'll try the ROLO alignment -- anything to ensure my front end is squared away!

And everyone else: thanks for all the hints!
 
I spent 30+ years on two wheelers and felt the same way when I got my first Spyder (2012 RTS) in 2012 but after a trip to the Texas Hill Country to ride the Twisted Sisters to see how my new toy would handle the twisties I was amazed with the Spyder's performance. My friend who went with me on his Goldwing is known to be a daredevil on the twisties and he couldn't believe that I stayed right on his tail as he scraped footpegs trying to loose me in the turns. He found it even more unbelievable when I took the lead and kept having to slow down for him to catch up as I lost him on every turn. I traded my 2012 with no mods in on a 2014 RT Limited and I do have to say that my new bike did feel a little looser on the front end felt like it drifted somewhat but after a laser alignment and Baja Ron sway bar it handles even better than my 2012 did. I agree with everyone else. Give it some time to get used to your Spyder and get the alignment and other mods that you feel will make it a better ride for you.
 
You are correct the negative toe will cause (slight) straight line wondering and slight oscillations during cornering. The extreme conditions you describe may be enhanced due to type type as tires can have a profound effect on performance.
As far as body design and wind induced anomalies, I can't take credit for that one as information provided related to how a vehicle performs during windy conditions or at speed. I had an opportunity to talk with a retired NASA scientist by the name Albert Muller this spring. He studied my designed and viewed and pointed out the possible flaws.
From a strictly aerodynamic view a traditional trike has an advantage as the center of force is behind the center of mass so like a dart with a tail it will naturally fly straight. Put the front wheels ahead of the center of mass then add a large cowl and according to Mr Muller the dart becomes unstable. Pretty easy to visualize.
Of course my reaction was "But Albert I don't drive 8000 mph" he said "good point". :rolleyes:

He than asked me "when you drive in the rain, where does the water go?" He said this is the poor mans wind tunnel, you watch where the water spray off the tires ends up and that will tell you just where your weaknesses lie.
In any case 2-1 configurations with a narrow and rounded nose cowling will do well at normal to high speeds and those with larger frontal areas will perform less proficiently.
I now incorporate wind testing in all designs.

Getting back to the spyder. The width to length wheel ratios are spot on along with the fact the spyder places most of the mass as close to the front wheels as practical. These factor dictate a good stable straight-line path along with low lean predictable cornering. I think Bombardier did a great job in the design and layout however may have an issue with tire choice.

Toe will have as stated a slight affect on stability and yes negative toe should be avoided. Unfortunately none of the other critical steering adjustments are readily adjustable so it's just toe and tire choice.
The aerodynamic wander normally rears it's head at 40mph plus and is very much like the feeling you get when riding across a steel slated bridge deck. It's not extreme or dangerous but somewhat consistent. This wondering or oscillating does not amplify with speed and at points may actually diminish. More caster and positive toe along with better tires will all aid in reduction of this effect.
It is also one of those things most riders will become used to and in time not even notice it's there.

I must disagree with some of your definitions and and applied concepts. If the toe is incorrect, towards a toe out direction, the word slight in regards to wandering when traveling straight must be based on the severity of toe error, and the comfort level of the driver and passenger. Your experience of 100k miles, and I assume this was on machines with oem alignments, may have been slight for you, but others may find it extremely unnerving.

The degree of toe out error will make the machine less stable with more toe out and more stable as the wheels are made closer to a proper toe setting. In simple terms it is a balance of forces, and toe out is an unbalanced setting. Using the example of how a tail heavy dart wanders in the longitudinal axis, and your explanation of riding over a grated bridge are fine examples of toe out. Toe out does not allow a hands off the bars while traveling straight ride. Proper toe in will. Also, proper toe in will induce a natural self centering of the wheels and allow the machine to naturally flow out of corners as the wheels have a force on them returning them to straight. Toe out does not accomplish this. Toe out, causes the machine to have a tucking effect to the inside of the corner and relies on centrifugal forces alone to exit the corner. If the machine was utilized on a race course with a an experienced race driver, he would prefer slight toe out to allow better turn in. However that situation is a very focused environment.


Your friend, Albert Muller, has some interesting remarks. In regards to rain, on aerodynamic surfaces it is a great tool I have used before. The best use is for flight vehicles where laminar flow is needed. Similar to tufting with yarn, but provides better entertainment and a more accurate result of an entire chordline or surface of a panel. Watching rain spray off BOTH tires to prove something would be difficult if not impossible. We have ridden in the rain. From my experience, I can only watch one tire at a time, and not for long. Not sure where his comments were headed, uness he was considering a sophisticated camera and data acquisition setup.

If you mistakenly substituted watching tire spray for watching airflow across a body panel, that is easily more doable on the frunks upper surface and fenders.

I do enjoy the concept of using the dart example in regards to stability. One consideration I have when reading those remarks is that there is a transition of force in a dart or arrow that a Spyder does not enter into. A dart when launched is held forward, so the input force is towards the front and the mass is forward. The mass remains forward with an aerodynamic cross section that is symmetric. The aft body of a dart has stabilizing fins, so basically the entire engineering is based towards stability.

With an arrow launched from a bow, or even a rocket with aft propulsion, these too have a center of gravity like every object. There is an optimum CG, which could be adjusted via a weight tip at the nose and tail feathers aft. In simple concepts, the arrows body is a constant weight at each station section along the entire body length. Being propelled from the rear, like a Spyder, this induces a force that must be stabilized. For a flight vehicle, air is the supporting media, so fins on the aft body control this.

A Spyder is an aft propulsion vehicle also. The media is different being grip to the road and the effect of the three tires all come into play. Assuming the rear tire is properly aligned and the chassis is built correctly, the line of thrust should be centered between the two front tires. Stability for the rolling chassis must come from the front tires. As you mentioned, tire replacement could be a solution, however for those with newer machines sporting the 15" wheels these choices are limited. Those with 14" wheels may find a better choice. Regards though, tires will not correct toe misalignment, simply mask it and the tires will still scrub, resulting in lower top speeds and reduce fuel economy.

Turning the page to center of of aerodynamic pressures. Your ideas of better aerodynamics is solid for any vehicle. Reading your words it almost sounds as if you are designing a new vehicle or planning to build body panels for an existing vehicle. With the Spyder, all aerodynamic and CG calculations must include the vehicle itself AND the rider or riders. Line of thrust is basically moot since it runs straight down the vehicle. unless you plan to accomplish crosswind buffeting effects. Unlike an aircraft, space vehicle or enclosed land vehicle, the riders on a Spyder are a huge part of the equation for aerodynamics. Additionally, the riders themselves, having mass or weight, will counter the instability you mentioned of the front end aerodynamics. Also, like an arrow, launched from a bow, having rear thrust, the riders act almost similar to a stabilizing fin as air passes around them. If one recall the recent commercial of a sport bike in a wind tunnel, and the engineer comes out to the rider and mentions all this paperwork must be completed, it was obvious none of the paperwork, as it blew from the engineers hands went onto the rider. Even with a two wheeled sportbike, the rider is positioned for low drag and aerodynamic stability.

When accomplishing calculations or testing on a Spyder, please consider that entire front end is not opaque to airflow. A very large percentage of the direct drag from the profile does not exist but is rather air passing towards radiators and classified as cooling drag. Cooling drag, while important is not always blunt and does change the numbers in calculations.

Our sidebar discussion, based on your comments regarding forces and aerodynamics has steered this topic well away from alignments.

I will not dispute your 100k of experience. I do hope you were involved in testing for optimum toe settings away from a computer and perceived formulas. Road experience with back to back testing of various toe settings proved to me the small change in adjustment was a large change in control.

In regards to you aerodynamically testing all your work, all the best with it. There have been many an aerodynamics engineer slap their forehead once the guys with practical experience get a chance to sort the entire package.

Again all the best with it.

PK
 
Same for me -- at first

Ride as many miles as you can as soon as you can, preferably on roads where there isn't a lot of traffic to worry about.
I came from 100K+ miles on 2 wheels and almost no ATV experience, so I experienced everything you described including buyers remorse for the first 1000 miles. then feeling unsure for the next 1000 miles. Luckily my husband told me to just keep driving it to get used to it. He bugged me DAILY to get out and ride as long as I could. I put in the first 2000 miles in the first 2 weeks. After that I still didn't feel totally comfortable like I had on 2 wheels until about 5000 miles, but I was mostly comfortable most of the time :) Now I've got just under 30,000 miles on my spyder and I'd never go back to 2 wheels. This thing is just TOO MUCH FUN!

While the mods (shocks/sway bar etc.) might help, they also cost money and what you need is just more experience. I still drive with the stock spyder, and 90% of my driving is in the mountains, so lots of twisties and as much speed as I can get away with...

The "free" mods that will help is to adjust the front shocks (if you have adjustable shocks -- I have a 2012, so I bumped mine up to max stiffness), play with the back shock, and make sure your front tires have a little more air. I run mine around 19 psi.

The squirrely front end feeling, especially on highways is the death grip that you have on the handlebars. You may not think you do, but if you're feeling the squirrels, you do. Try the open palm technique to try and loosen up. Believe me -- if you keep at it, you WILL get past this stage, and once you do, the spyder is a blast to ride.
 
When I got my 2010 RT I was frightened on every curve and anything over 50 mph had me hanging on for dear life. Without new shocks, an alignment or a sway bar it became a joy to ride. What changed? Absolutely nothing. It wasn't the Spyder. It was me learning to relax and enjoy the ride after about 500 - 1000 miles.
 
Still not there yet

I have found all of the posts related to this and my thread to be very interesting and informative. On my most recent ride I found that losing the 'death grip' helped a lot, but I am very uncomfortable in the corners, especially long sweepers and decreasing radius. The Spyder is a heavy machine and I weigh about 145 lbs. and I wonder if that is a factor. I am steering as recommended and shifting my weight to the inside as I push off with the outside foot and I still don't feel as if I can be at all aggressive. I am hoping that a laser alignment will help, but my dealer will not offer it until next spring. As previously mentioned front tires at 19lbs, rear 28, elka stage 5 front, stage 1 rear, ronbar, shock relocators all on a 2012 RTS. I really love my Spyder and am still optimistic that it will work out.
 
Just keep riding. The over sensitive or twitchy feeling on the long sweeping turns is for sure normal.
Also, all the info everyone has mentioned is very good. However, don't over think it. Its easy to over think every body movement and that will make you tense. As you spend more time you'll relax more and soon learn to just glide!
 
I have found all of the posts related to this and my thread to be very interesting and informative. On my most recent ride I found that losing the 'death grip' helped a lot, but I am very uncomfortable in the corners, especially long sweepers and decreasing radius. The Spyder is a heavy machine and I weigh about 145 lbs. and I wonder if that is a factor. I am steering as recommended and shifting my weight to the inside as I push off with the outside foot and I still don't feel as if I can be at all aggressive. I am hoping that a laser alignment will help, but my dealer will not offer it until next spring. As previously mentioned front tires at 19lbs, rear 28, elka stage 5 front, stage 1 rear, ronbar, shock relocators all on a 2012 RTS. I really love my Spyder and am still optimistic that it will work out.

Your Spyder may not 'Feel' stable or safe to you, but it is. Even with a bad alignment it isn't going to toss you in the weeds. But head knowledge only goes so far. And when you feel your life is in peril it doesn't go very far at all.

Did you have the sway bar and Elka shocks installed at the same time? Are you sure they took your weight into consideration on the Elka shocks?

Also, I think 19 psi in the front tires may be a bit much at your weight unless you're loading the Frunk with some very heavy stuff. Most of the numbers you hear tossed out as good ideas apply to the more typical, Uhhhh, Chuncky builds found on most Spyders... You might try experimenting with a bit less pressure there. Be sure that both tires are inflated the same. There is a nifty little device to help accomplish that.

If you do change any parameters, do just 1 at a time. More than 1 change can really confuse and complicate the troubleshooting process.

Hang in there. The Spyder will eventually convince you that it is trustworthy.
 
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