Nitrogen on tires or not, that is the question...

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Sorry, but that isn't the reason they used nitrogen in the airplane tires. Nitrogen, oxygen and the blend of gasses we call air all behave exactly the same way according to Boyle's law. Basically, this law says that pressure is proportional to temperature, assuming the volume is a constant (like in a tire). The pressure will fall the same amount going from a hot to a cold area whether the gas is N2, O2 or air. Furthermore, those who say their tire pressure never changes when they use nitrogen just aren't being picky or observant enough. There is enough difference between summer and winter temperatures to alter the pressure a pound or three regardless of what gas is inside the tire. Nitrogen is used to purge moisture in HVAC systems because it contains practically zero moisture content.

If you want to convince yourself that Boyle's law is really true, then fill your tires with N2 and let them cool over night. Check the pressure. The next morning, get out on the highway and ride for 30 minutes at 60 or 70 to let the tires heat up. Then, immediately check the tire pressure again. I'll bet you anything that you will see an increase in tire pressure of several psi.

it is the moisture content of air that expands with heat, that is why nitrogen is a more stable gas for filling tires. those who
do paintball over the years have probably switched from c02 to nitrogen because it is a dry gas so the paintballs do not
jam up as easy.

 

[Magdave]

Sorry, but that isn't the reason they used nitrogen in the airplane tires. Nitrogen, oxygen and the blend of gasses we call air all behave exactly the same way according to Boyle's law*. Basically, this law says that pressure is proportional to temperature, assuming the volume is a constant (like in a tire). The pressure will fall the same amount going from a hot to a cold area whether the gas is N2, O2 or air. Furthermore, those who say their tire pressure never changes when they use nitrogen just aren't being picky or observant enough. There is enough difference between summer and winter temperatures to alter the pressure a pound or three regardless of what gas is inside the tire. Nitrogen is used to purge moisture in HVAC systems because it contains practically zero moisture content.

If you want to convince yourself that Boyle's law is really true, then fill your tires with N2 and let them cool over night. Check the pressure. The next morning, get out on the highway and ride for 30 minutes at 60 or 70 to let the tires heat up. Then, immediately check the tire pressure again. I'll bet you anything that you will see an increase in tire pressure of several psi.

Edit: *I got to looking and found I made a mistake. The law to which I referred is the ideal gas law. Boyle's law is apparently a simplified version of that law in which temperature is assumed to remain constant. Here is an explanation of the ideal gas law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law

And have YOU done that? As I posted before the increase form cold to hot is 1/2 or more less with N2 than air. That is not the main benefit it is the stability of pressure and lack of need to keep topping off. On my corvette I saw a 2lb change cold to hot with air it was a 4lb change. I did not need to add anything until the second year with N2 in the tires.:dontknow:

 

[Motorcycledave]

It works alot better if you put it in :thumbup: the tires.

Hello again to all, Greetings from Tequila country...quick one, is it ok and/or recomendable to put Nitrogen on the tires instead of regular air?...I am planning to put Ride-on on the tires and wondering if it would be a benefit or detriment. They supposedly run cooler and bla bla but just in case better ask...Thanks to all!!!hyea:

 

[Dan_Ashley]

it is the moisture content of air that expands with heat, that is why nitrogen is a more stable gas for filling tires. those who
do paintball over the years have probably switched from c02 to nitrogen because it is a dry gas so the paintballs do not
jam up as easy.

that is not the reason for switching from CO2 to N2. It has nothing to do with the moisture in the CO2. It is because when CO2 is released from a compressed stated, it causes a larger temperature drop than compressed N2. This is because CO2 is compressed at a greater pressure. (See the ideal gas law above). Because the CO2 gas is colder when it is released, more frost forms.

Also, the reason race cars use N2 has nothing to do with moisture. The tires on race cars will be worn out far before any damage could be done by moisture, or O2, for that matter. It also has nothing to do with molecule size or running temperature. It is because it is easier for a pit crew to lug around an N2 tank than an air compressor.

 

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

You can just as easily lug around an air tank as an n2 tank

 

[Bob Denman]

...And I thought that my A.D.D. was pretty much unchecked... :shocked:

 

[crazyspyder]

funy stuff

so many experts here .....:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: myself included, all I know air is free and never had any issues between
tire changes... to each their own cup of tea. :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Art Mann]

And have YOU done that? As I posted before the increase form cold to hot is 1/2 or more less with N2 than air. That is not the main benefit it is the stability of pressure and lack of need to keep topping off. On my corvette I saw a 2lb change cold to hot with air it was a 4lb change. I did not need to add anything until the second year with N2 in the tires.:dontknow:

What I am telling you is what I learned 30 years ago as an engineering student taking a course in pressure vessels. I spent nearly all of my career as an automotive engineer for one of the "big three" and I have never heard anyone who really knows what they are talking about advocate N2 as an alternative to good old air. It was a kind of running joke in one of the offices where I worked. The laws of physics and chemistry describing the behavior of gasses in a pressure vessel don't change when that vessel is a tire. The guy who speculaterd that moisture in air but not in N2 might offer some explanation for your observations. If excessive moisture in the tire is heated to the point that water is going from the liquid state to the gaseous state, that might change the equation.

I am sorry if I sound like a jerk but I just don't want someone to get the impression that substituting N2 for air in their tires is going to make enough difference to matter.

I found this link for anyone who is bored enough to look into this further. https://www.chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/genchem/sstutorial/Text9/Tx96/tx96.html

 

[ChasCS]

Many gas stations today, charge at all pumps!!

so many experts here .....:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: myself included, all I know air is free and never had any issues between
tire changes... to each their own cup of tea. :thumbup::thumbup:

Notice a coin receptacle on most air hose boxes here, these days...

We get to pay at both pumps now. ;-)

If you ask politely, they will turn it on, for One tire fill..

Chas

 

[AeroPilot]

Perception is reality-

so many experts here .....:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: myself included, all I know air is free and never had any issues between
tire changes... to each their own cup of tea. :thumbup::thumbup:

As an old boss in sales once told me.... "Perception is Reality". If the customer perceives a particular point, THAT is his reality. My perception is that the 78% Nitrogen I get at the house is best for me and the low average humidity around here is just "gravy" when I fill up my tires. I still check them with a good tire gauge before every trip out of town. If I was really picky, I'd have a large compressor with a good water knockout. (and yes Charles law still works).

:thumbup:

 

[Magdave]

What I am telling you is what I learned 30 years ago as an engineering student taking a course in pressure vessels. I spent nearly all of my career as an automotive engineer for one of the "big three" and I have never heard anyone who really knows what they are talking about advocate N2 as an alternative to good old air. It was a kind of running joke in one of the offices where I worked. The laws of physics and chemistry describing the behavior of gasses in a pressure vessel don't change when that vessel is a tire. The guy who speculaterd that moisture in air but not in N2 might offer some explanation for your observations. If excessive moisture in the tire is heated to the point that water is going from the liquid state to the gaseous state, that might change the equation.

I am sorry if I sound like a jerk but I just don't want someone to get the impression that substituting N2 for air in their tires is going to make enough difference to matter.

I found this link for anyone who is bored enough to look into this further. https://www.chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/genchem/sstutorial/Text9/Tx96/tx96.html

I worked for GM in the tire room mounted over 2 million tires. Your facts are wrong. It makes a difference on several levels as I have posted I tutored a lot of engineers . Try the link it answers ALL the questions anyone could have about Nitrogen in tires
http://www.getnitrogen.org/sub.php?view=getTheFacts&subpage=pressurefluctuate



Nitrogen will work great in the tires I already have.

Yes. Nitrogen can be used in any tire you would fill with air, including the ones you already have on your vehicle. Nitrogen in your tires will enhance handling, improve fuel efficiency, extend tire life, help you protect the Earth, and most importantly, keep you safer on the road.


While nitrogen will help you maintain proper pressure, you should still check your tires on a regular basis and/or as recommended by the tire manufacturer.



What are the effects of temperature change on my nitrogen filled tires?

The pressure in nitrogen filled tires will change when the temperature changes, just as it does with air filled tires, because nitrogen and oxygen respond to changes in ambient temperature in a similar manner. For example, when your vehicle is parked it will lose a similar amount of pressure for every 10 degree change in temperature, whether the tires are filled with nitrogen or air.
The calculations for this change are based on the Ideal Gas Law. A good rule of thumb is this: For every 10 F degree change in temperature, the pressure will change by 1.9%. If a tire is filled to 32 psi at a temperature of 75 F degrees and the temperature drops 10 degrees, the tire pressure will drop to 31.4 psi; a difference of .6 psi. If a 100 psi tire is filled at 75 F degrees and the temperature drops 10 degrees, the tire pressure will drop to 98.1 psi; a difference of .9 psi.
These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls no matter what the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are well aware of these conditions and design their tires and recommend their cold inflation pressure accordingly.
However, nitrogen does not contain the moisture and other contaminants found in compressed air so, as you drive and the tires heat up, nitrogen filled tires will fluctuate less in temperature and pressure than air filled tires while driving. The bottom line is, you will still see pressure changes with nitrogen but, overall, your tires will run cooler and at a more consistent pressure than if they were filled with air.For more information please see the Effects of Temperature on Pressure which shows the expansion rates of dry air or nitrogen, in both a truck and passenger tire, as the temperature increases. It also shows how the vapor pressure of water increases as temperature increases and includes a brief explanation



Will my tire pressure fluctuate while driving if I use nitrogen?

You will still see pressure changes with nitrogen while driving, but overall your tires will run cooler and at a more consistent pressure than if they were filled with air. Nitrogen does not contain the moisture and other contaminants found in compressed air, so nitrogen filled tires will fluctuate less in temperature and pressure than air filled tires under driving conditions, even at high speed and at high temps
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[Magdave]

Nitrogen Maximizes:

Fuel Economy - Proper tire pressure lessens rolling resistance and maximizes fuel efficiency.

Handling - Proper tire inflation ensures the recommended “contact patch” of your tire is on the road.

Safety and Reliability - Under-inflated tires cause 90 percent of blowouts. Nitrogen provides more reliable pressure for reduced blowout potential.

Tire Life - Under-inflated tires wear quickly on the shoulders, and over-inflated tires wear in the center. In addition, removing oxygen eliminates oxidation and condensation that can damage inner liners, steel belts and rims.

And It’s Better For The Environment - Anything that improves fuel efficiency and reduces toxic emissions is good for the environment, and nitrogen in your tires can help.

Is there any scientific support for the use of nitrogen in passenger and truck tires?

Please visit the Scientific Proof page and the Environment page Environment page of our website, Science and Support column. Both of these contain numerous studies for both fleet and passenger tires which prove the benefits of nitrogen over air for extension of tire life. Also see the last two paragraphs of the paper by Dr. Keith Murphy explaining why reducing the percentage of oxygen in your tires is so beneficial to extending tire life and improving fuel economy.
​

 

[Art Mann]

Uuuuuuuh, did you read what I wrote? Did you read the text you just quoted? The fact is we are saying the same thing. I will repeat it for clarity. Air and Nitrogen will change pressure in exactly the same way and by the same amount with changes in temperature. Both gasses follow the ideal gas law. That is what I already said and that is what your quote says. Of course, it is possible to introduce water and other contaminants into tires and this might cause adverse effects in extreme cases. Whether it is air or pure nitrogen that is contaminated will make no difference. I don't know what GM fills their tires with but i would bet it is nothing but plain old filtered and dried air. I know for a fact that is what Chrysler Motors does. That is also what I and good tire shops do too.

Please notice that your expert source is actually a trade organization that exists for the sole purpose of selling nitrogen for use in tires. Do you really expect them to admit the differences are negligible? They claim that nitrogen filled tires run cooler but their explanation of why is bogus. It is easy and cheap to filter and dry air. They mention that other gasses leak through the tires faster than nitrogen. So what? The changes are less significant than changes due to seasonal temperature changes. See your own quote. You need to measure and adjust your tire pressure periodically anyway whether you use air or nitrogen.

I worked for GM in the tire room mounted over 2 million tires. Your facts are wrong. It makes a difference on several levels as I have posted I tutored a lot of engineers . Try the link it answers ALL the questions anyone could have about Nitrogen in tires
http://www.getnitrogen.org/sub.php?view=getTheFacts&subpage=pressurefluctuate



Nitrogen will work great in the tires I already have.

Yes. Nitrogen can be used in any tire you would fill with air, including the ones you already have on your vehicle. Nitrogen in your tires will enhance handling, improve fuel efficiency, extend tire life, help you protect the Earth, and most importantly, keep you safer on the road.


While nitrogen will help you maintain proper pressure, you should still check your tires on a regular basis and/or as recommended by the tire manufacturer.



What are the effects of temperature change on my nitrogen filled tires?

The pressure in nitrogen filled tires will change when the temperature changes, just as it does with air filled tires, because nitrogen and oxygen respond to changes in ambient temperature in a similar manner. For example, when your vehicle is parked it will lose a similar amount of pressure for every 10 degree change in temperature, whether the tires are filled with nitrogen or air.
The calculations for this change are based on the Ideal Gas Law. A good rule of thumb is this: For every 10 F degree change in temperature, the pressure will change by 1.9%. If a tire is filled to 32 psi at a temperature of 75 F degrees and the temperature drops 10 degrees, the tire pressure will drop to 31.4 psi; a difference of .6 psi. If a 100 psi tire is filled at 75 F degrees and the temperature drops 10 degrees, the tire pressure will drop to 98.1 psi; a difference of .9 psi.
These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls no matter what the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are well aware of these conditions and design their tires and recommend their cold inflation pressure accordingly.
However, nitrogen does not contain the moisture and other contaminants found in compressed air so, as you drive and the tires heat up, nitrogen filled tires will fluctuate less in temperature and pressure than air filled tires while driving. The bottom line is, you will still see pressure changes with nitrogen but, overall, your tires will run cooler and at a more consistent pressure than if they were filled with air.For more information please see the Effects of Temperature on Pressure which shows the expansion rates of dry air or nitrogen, in both a truck and passenger tire, as the temperature increases. It also shows how the vapor pressure of water increases as temperature increases and includes a brief explanation



Will my tire pressure fluctuate while driving if I use nitrogen?

You will still see pressure changes with nitrogen while driving, but overall your tires will run cooler and at a more consistent pressure than if they were filled with air. Nitrogen does not contain the moisture and other contaminants found in compressed air, so nitrogen filled tires will fluctuate less in temperature and pressure than air filled tires under driving conditions, even at high speed and at high temps
​

​

 

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Uuuuuuuh, did you read what I wrote? Did you read the text you just quoted? The fact is we are saying the same thing. I will repeat it for clarity. Air and Nitrogen will change pressure in exactly the same way and by the same amount with changes in temperature. Both gasses follow the ideal gas law. That is what I already said and that is what your quote says. Of course, it is possible to introduce water and other contaminants into tires and this might cause adverse effects in extreme cases. Whether it is air or pure nitrogen that is contaminated will make no difference. I don't know what GM fills their tires with but i would bet it is nothing but plain old filtered and dried air. I know for a fact that is what Chrysler Motors does. That is also what I and good tire shops do too.

Please notice that your expert source is actually a trade organization that exists for the sole purpose of selling nitrogen for use in tires. Do you really expect them to admit the differences are negligible? They claim that nitrogen filled tires run cooler but their explanation of why is bogus. It is easy and cheap to filter and dry air. They mention that other gasses leak through the tires faster than nitrogen. So what? The changes are less significant than changes due to seasonal temperature changes. See your own quote. You need to measure and adjust your tire pressure periodically anyway whether you use air or nitrogen.

As temperature drops they are the same, as temperature rises nitrogen is more stable because without moisture there is no expansion.

 

[crazyspyder]

NOT

opcorn: opcorn:

 

[Dan_Ashley]

At temperature drops they are the same, as temperature rises nitrogen is more stable because without moisture there is no expansion.

This is incorrect. All gasses "expand" when temperature rises. Read an introductory chemistry text to validate this.

To get 100% n2 into the tire you first have to get all the air out. If you don't do that, and merely fill a mounted tire with n2, and target it at 2atm pressure, you then have, not 78% n2 as you would using air, but 89% n2. So, if you pay money for this you are actually paying to reduce the non-n2 components by only 50%. You will still have the same quantity of O2 and moisture as you would if you put no air in the tires, other what was in them when you mounted them.

 

[barryhn]

To me, there isn't any real practical advantage in using nitrogen air unless you are planning to do track racing.

 

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

This is incorrect. All gasses "expand" when temperature rises. Read an introductory chemistry text to validate this.

To get 100% n2 into the tire you first have to get all the air out. If you don't do that, and merely fill a mounted tire with n2, and target it at 2atm pressure, you then have, not 78% n2 as you would using air, but 89% n2. So, if you pay money for this you are actually paying to reduce the non-n2 components by only 50%. You will still have the same quantity of O2 and moisture as you would if you put no air in the tires, other what was in them when you mounted them.

yes you are right, that is why most systems do a double purge, you will still have an 02 content but you want it to be under 2%
to get the best results. the less oxygen the less moisture you will have. At my store i have always said the real benefits are
if you have chrome wheels or TPMS tire sensors, both get damaged from moisture.

 

[obiwan57]

I use the much cheaper, 78% nitrogen, that's more commonly available.

Honestly, I don't know ir the cost of using nitriogen; negates it's supposed advantages. :shocked:

:agree: I think it's a scam for typical motor vehicle use.

 

[Magdave]

As temperature drops they are the same, as temperature rises nitrogen is more stable because without moisture there is no expansion.

Exactly my point it is more stable and changes less than air :thumbup: Even at same temp with temp drop it will be less. Just because the above post says they will re act the same it does not mean by the same amount.