My email to Carlo

[jrbloise]

Carlo,

I really hate to complain, but I'm going to express my experience with the front tires prematurely wearing of the tread on the insides of my tires.

History: I purchased an 2009 SE-5 RS about mid march of 2009 In Nashville, TN. Note: after a bad experience during my 600 mile service with "Jeff", the service manager, I chose to use MidSouth Motoplex located in Clarksville, TN for all future servicing.

First tire tread problem:

During my 6000 mile service I pointed out the bald tread on both front tires to the service mgr., and Spyder Tech. I noticed the wearing treads at about 4000 miles. Here is what they told me, and I quote, "this is normal wear and generally motorcycle tires are good for anywhere between 6000 and 8000 miles". Also told: "this is probably caused by aggressive riding".

This mildly irritated me, but I accepted the explanation and went ahead and purchased two new tires and had them mount them.

I belong to Spyderlovers.com forum (ID: jrbloise), and read many other posters with the same problem. It seems "up in the air" as to who is responsible for alignment: BRP at the assembly line, or the dealer when prepping. It doesn't matter to me who and when, but I do firmly believe that it should have been properly aligned before delivery to me!

Second tire tread problem:

During my 12,000 mile service, the front tires were bald on the insides again. But this time, the original Spyder Tech. had quit and was replaced by an existing mechanic who is known as a "Master Mechanic" at Motoplex. This guy quickly noticed the tread wear and told me this was not normal and the bike needed an alignment to correct this problem. At this time I asked the service counter person if BRP (or dealer) would make this right by replacing the tires at no cost to me. I was told NO as tires are considered a "wear & tear" item and BRP would not cover them under warranty.

I reluctantly accepted this and proceeded to purchase another set of front tires along with him aligning the front end. I was happy at this point because I thought this Mechanic would finally properly adjust the alignment, and my tread wear would at least be "even".

The Glass is half full/empty:

At the present mileage of just over 21,000 miles, the left front tire (from sitting on the bike) is wearing evenly. But, the right tire is balding again on the inside but not as bad as before.

Now about the "Glass is half full/empty" I think the mechanic who aligned the front end (at about 13,000 service) did the best he could with the instruments available in the shop. I talked with the Service Mgr. and specifically asked him what instrument(s) the shop was equipped with in order to properly align the Spyder. Here's what I was told: "a tape measure".

This is not acceptable to me! And it's yet another reason my tire(s) are going bald way too prematurely! It is also not acceptable to me that I had to spend way more money than I should have in purchasing tires and paying $70.00 per hour for the labor!

I am not stupid and have done my due diligences in researching this problem. I do have an online Service Manual for my bike and read the process for correctly doing a front end alignment. I also noticed an instrument mentioned that BRP provides dealerships with in order to do this job the right way. I know the dealership might/might not have to purchase this equipment from BRP, but just the same they should have something better than a "tape measure".

At this point:

Carlo, at this point in time, I would ask you to "go to bat" for me with the "powers to be" at BRP and satisfy my request.

I would be happy and content if you could arrange my dealership to replace both front tires ,and more importantly, to perform a correct and properly done alignment at no cost to me.

Thank for your time and consideration,

John R. Bloise
VIN: 2BYJAHA129V000518
Model: A29M

Cell Phone: 615-517-6039

 

[canam9]

I agree with you John, it is unacceptable that the dealer is does not have the right tools to do the job. I too recentley spoke with the service manager at the BRP dealer I use and was told that they use a tape to do the job. Its not right.
Good luck to you John and keep us informed.:ani29:

 

[Firefly]

Sorry for your continued troubles. What PSI are you running in the fronts?

When I ran mine up around 20 I had uneven and premature wear. Running down around 16-17 has been much better.

 

[ThreeFeet]

Tire wear

I am REALLY REALLY SURE that the alignment on my SE5 (09 with 6XXX mi) was off FROM THE FACTORY!! I have had trailers that they slap the wheels on and send it on it's way. I have a feeling that there are times when this is the proceedure for ALL factories. My bike got fixed and new front tires on in Cuba at the Cowtown Dealer. They told me they used a string,a square and luck.:roflblack and at that time not sure if they were telling me the truth!!!:yikes: Mechanic humer!!) The guy I talked to in Wausau at the BRP factory said they send out a lazer to the dealers so that the fronts can be aligned.(He was a little bent when I told him I thought it was the factory screw up.:gaah Whether the dealer gets one or not is a ?????able thing. But my Techs say they use a lazer. The tires are REALLY soft rubber and wear really fast. Just replaced the rear at 98xx ish. OUCH. The guy I talked to at BRP said you can't use a "car" tire on the bike as it messes with the stabilizer stuff and throws it off. Got me on that one:dontknow: haven't a CLUE if that is true or not. ray::dontknow:

 

[jrbloise]

I agree with you John, it is unacceptable that the dealer is does not have the right tools to do the job. I too recentley spoke with the service manager at the BRP dealer I use and was told that they use a tape to do the job. Its not right.
Good luck to you John and keep us informed.:ani29:

We shall see how Carlo and BRP will respond. opcorn:

 

[jrbloise]

FireFly...

Sorry for your continued troubles. What PSI are you running in the fronts?

When I ran mine up around 20 I had uneven and premature wear. Running down around 16-17 has been much better.

I have always run 17 PSI in the front tires as recommened by service techs from date of original purchase.

John

 

[jrbloise]

I am REALLY REALLY SURE that the alignment on my SE5 (09 with 6XXX mi) was off FROM THE FACTORY!! I have had trailers that they slap the wheels on and send it on it's way. I have a feeling that there are times when this is the proceedure for ALL factories. My bike got fixed and new front tires on in Cuba at the Cowtown Dealer. They told me they used a string,a square and luck.:roflblack and at that time not sure if they were telling me the truth!!!:yikes: Mechanic humer!!) The guy I talked to in Wausau at the BRP factory said they send out a lazer to the dealers so that the fronts can be aligned.(He was a little bent when I told him I thought it was the factory screw up.:gaah Whether the dealer gets one or not is a ?????able thing. But my Techs say they use a lazer. The tires are REALLY soft rubber and wear really fast. Just replaced the rear at 98xx ish. OUCH. The guy I talked to at BRP said you can't use a "car" tire on the bike as it messes with the stabilizer stuff and throws it off. Got me on that one:dontknow: haven't a CLUE if that is true or not. ray::dontknow:

I agree that the Spyder's tire from Kenda are on the soft side, but wearing un-even is an alignment problem. I wouldn't mind premature tread wear if it were "even" wear.

John

 

[fastfraser]

I have gone the same route as you, every 6,000 miles a new set of fronts. Well i just put my 4th set on and after getting now where with two different dealers (both told me all was with-in spec. and it was normal wear and i was probably an aggressive driver ) I did my own front end alignment. Got every thing I needed to do it at the Home Depot. Took about 2 hours, and man it doesn't take much of a turn on the tie rod to make a huge adjustment on the wheel. It turns out that I had TOE IN on both fronts more on the right side. Hence the wear on the inside of the tires.
Brp still gets a piece of you after you do the alignment yourself ,if you drive it after you get LIMP HOME MODE ,VSS and DPS codes. They have to hook it up to BUDS and reset the TORQUE OFFSET and STEERING ANGLE, only cost me 0.20 hrs x $90.00= 18.00.

I had all the receipt for labour and 4 new sets of front tires and tried to argue that this should have been done the first time under warranty, to no availe. So hopefully I have solved the problem.

I guess the old saying that if you want something done wright you have to do it your self !

 

[mxz600]

I guess the old saying that if you want something done wright you have to do it your self !

Not for things like this, :wrong:

 

[Firefly]

:agree: You shouldn't have to align this yourself. If your dealer can't do it right--- find another dealer or :cus: at BRP to get your current dealer up to date with their training.

6,000 on a front seems pretty low. General rule of thumb on MC tires is 2 rear tires for every set of fronts. Many have gotten far more miles out of these tires (like 20,000+ on the rear and 30,000+ on the fronts:shocked ---- but I pretty much expect 8,000 - 10,000 from the rear and 12,000 - 15,000 from the fronts. I'll be more than happy with that.

Hope you can find a remedy soon!

 

[fastfraser]

Easier said then done, on my 2nd dealer now. First one where I bought the bike from wouldn't put the Toyo 1 on because it wasn't a motorcycle tire . Second dealer not to bad as I do all the work on the :spyder2: myself with the BUDS being the exception.


Sorry don't mean to hi-jack the thread .

 

[NancysToy]

There is an alignment procedure in the shop manual. I would insist that they follow it to the letter! It requires an eight foot piece of aluminum angle, two short aluminum straps, some clamps, a tape measure, and a magnetic laser level. The Spyder must have the front wheels removed, and be jacked up to unload the suspension components. After alignment, the steering sensors must be reset via BUDS. I suspect that they did not do this after your last service, and that is why one tire is wearing. I hope with Carlo's help you can get the work done properly. Had your idiot tech been man enough to call BRP, they would have talked them through it...or he could have learned to read, and read the book.

I do not know your weight, but a heavy rider, or riding with a passenger a lot, can cause the alignment during operation to be off more than expected. If this is the case, and the wear continues, try a little more toe-in than specified.

 

[jrbloise]

Scotty...

There is an alignment procedure in the shop manual. I would insist that they follow it to the letter! It requires an eight foot piece of aluminum angle, two short aluminum straps, some clamps, a tape measure, and a magnetic laser level. The Spyder must have the front wheels removed, and be jacked up to unload the suspension components. After alignment, the steering sensors must be reset via BUDS. I suspect that they did not do this after your last service, and that is why one tire is wearing. I hope with Carlo's help you can get the work done properly. Had your idiot tech been man enough to call BRP, they would have talked them through it...or he could have learned to read, and read the book.

I do not know your weight, but a heavy rider, or riding with a passenger a lot, can cause the alignment during operation to be off more than expected. If this is the case, and the wear continues, try a little more toe-in than specified.

Thanks for the advise and information. Very encouraging.

I don't think I'm over weight as I'm 5' 8" tall (short?) and only weigh 160 lbs. I ride probably 98% of the time solo. My wife very seldom rides with me as she has nerve damage in her back. Hopefully after her operation on Aug. 6th., she'll be able to ride as she really loves it. She only weighs about 135.

John

 

[rnet]

Thanks for the advise and information. Very encouraging.

I don't think I'm over weight as I'm 5' 8" tall (short?) and only weigh 160 lbs. I ride probably 98% of the time solo. My wife very seldom rides with me as she has nerve damage in her back. Hopefully after her operation on Aug. 6th., she'll be able to ride as she really loves it. She only weighs about 135.

John

Good luck on the up and coming operation. My wife had 3,4,5,and 6 fused on Aug 4th of last year and still has to sleep in a recliner. no riding since, but soon she will try, as I have ordered a very light half helmet for her that will ship on today. It's the new limited edition Bell. Buy the way I don't believe in any wheel alignment with the suspension unloaded. They may take rider weight in consideration with there specs but why guess. Just my opinion. With trucks they even want it with your normal load. I guess the dealer should do it as Brp recommends though, and then go from there.

 

[NancysToy]

Thanks for the advise and information. Very encouraging.

I don't think I'm over weight as I'm 5' 8" tall (short?) and only weigh 160 lbs. I ride probably 98% of the time solo. My wife very seldom rides with me as she has nerve damage in her back. Hopefully after her operation on Aug. 6th., she'll be able to ride as she really loves it. She only weighs about 135.

John

You should do fine with a standard alignment. I wish I was as slender. The only difficulties seem to be when the rider approaches the upper 200s, or so, or the total load approaches the Spyder's stated weight capacity. I am not trying to throw rocks, just pointing out that having a heavier rider/passenger/luggage load than the Spyder was designed to handle, or even pushing those limits, affects the handling somewhat.

 

[Kerrville Bob]

Wheel Alignment

OK Spyder Owners. Here's my shot at offering a method for checking the front wheel for alignment problems.

First off, Dr. Bruce, head Spyder mechanic at my dealer (South Texas Suzuki) is as good as they come for working on Spyders and giving pointers to owners. My first SE-5 had a serious alignment problem. Made 5K trip to Los Angeles Owners Meeting in '09, Tires were showing some uneven wear at 7K as I started the trip. Upon return the inside 3 inches or so of tread was 3/32nds more worn than rest of tire at end of trip. Inside grooves were approaching a slick condition.

July. - Replaced tires and had alignment adjusted with 12K maintenance. As has been reported by others, my dealer confirmed BRP takes no responsibility for original alignment and/or accelerated tire wear probably caused by the mis-alignment. I did take pictures confirming the uneven wear.

Sept. - Three months later had dealer check alignment again for there was a bit of uneven wear showing up. By this time Bruce had improvised an improvement in the alignment equipment and procedure as presented by the BRP Shop Manual. Even wear was being experienced after this 2nd alignment. However at 21K and only 9K miles on the tires, Spyder #1 and I hit a dog and due to a seriously bent front suspension and frame #1 had to be retired to salvage. Tires at the time looked good for several more K miles. Dog didn't survive, however I hardly felt the impact, picking up a few plastic pieces, I drove the Spyder home. Certainly glad I wasn't on my FJR.

Dec '09, purchased Spyder III, SE-5 Demo with non-directional P175/65-R14 Rocky Mountain tires on front. Made in Argentina. Alignment was checked at purchase but at 9700 miles the 175s were showing uneven wear on inside, 1/32nds or so, not too bad but not right either.

Time to innovate. Made my own tool for checking wheel alignments. Took 1" metal tubing and made a square shaped U of 42" total width and 13" standing ends. 11" from floor tapped each end for a 3/8" X 4" eye bolt to be pointed towards each other. Placed a 3/8" nut inside for securing the eyebolt.

It is now important that steering be pointed as straight ahead as can be determined. By the manual, find common points under the seat and the left and right side handlebars and position handlebars so these distance measurements are equal. Use of the large bolt heads under the seat and a point on each handlebar end works for me. I use a metal yardstick and it comes out 35 -5/16ths".

Now taking the a-tool, we place it under the front of the Spyder and the eyebolts are adjusted till they just touch both rims. Note: 11" is the center point height of the rim and tire. Secure the eyebolts with the nuts.
Not move the a-tool to check the distance between the rims on the back side. Takes a bit of manuvering the tool but is made real easy if a friend helps. Wife maybe? In the distance at the back checks with the front, alignment should be good. This a zero toe in and toe out if they are the same measurements. (For possible reference, 1 full turn on the eyebolt of my a-tool measures 1.25mm.)

Spyder II was off a slight bit. The rear distance was shorter that the front explaining the wearing of the inside of the tires. Whatever the differences are in the two readings, divide by four and that will be the amount you will need to adjust the connecting arm on each side. I used mm, you could use 1/100" or whatever.

I have attached some pictures that should help. I left my a-tool with Bruce today and he has already had an additional thought on how to make it more accurate. NOTE: It is assumed that the rims are of good radial integity. Bruces idea is one to assure rim integrity for the check.

Spyder III now runs on six spokes and brand new Kenda OEM tires. Eager to see how we do. Got coupla LD trips planned August and October.
Sorry for such a long dissertation but this is a problem we need to resolve more simply that by the manual.

Love my Spyder in spite of the imperfections I've experienced.
Bob Buffington
[email protected]
Call 830-739-5902

REMEMBER: IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS

 

[docdoru]

Perfect tool for less-perfect dealers...:congrats:

 

[pierrelogic]

There is an alignment procedure in the shop manual. I would insist that they follow it to the letter! It requires an eight foot piece of aluminum angle, two short aluminum straps, some clamps, a tape measure, and a magnetic laser level. The Spyder must have the front wheels removed, and be jacked up to unload the suspension components. After alignment, the steering sensors must be reset via BUDS. I suspect that they did not do this after your last service, and that is why one tire is wearing. I hope with Carlo's help you can get the work done properly. Had your idiot tech been man enough to call BRP, they would have talked them through it...or he could have learned to read, and read the book.

I do not know your weight, but a heavy rider, or riding with a passenger a lot, can cause the alignment during operation to be off more than expected. If this is the case, and the wear continues, try a little more toe-in than specified.

I am going to agree with this...but there are *wildcards* and you eluded to one of them Scotty. Doing an alignment the way the manual states is very sound advice. But the weight of a rider, what extra weight that may be carried in the frunk and the suspension itself is going to affect the alignment on the road. It has to. Ever get in front of a Spyder and watch the wheels when someone gets on? I wish someone could put two pressure pads under the wheels to show the effect of weight on them. nojoke

You theoretically could have a Spyder properly aligned per the manual/specs on a hundred Spyders, run them all on the same road for thousands of miles and get different wear due to the *wildcards* involved. The only way to avoid this is to clone every rider and make sure they all drive the same way. Since that is impossible, we all run the gambit on our weight, what we carry with us, HOW we drive and throw in the different kinds of pavements the *wildcards* go up exponentially.

I'm no alignment expert! I just (over) analyze all the factors involved. Having an alignment based on the steps in the manual still has the be the best chance to get even tire wear, but even that isn't perfect.

Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread...but this is an interesting discussion.

 

[spyryder]

I am going to agree with this...but there are *wildcards* and you eluded to one of them Scotty. Doing an alignment the way the manual states is very sound advice. But the weight of a rider, what extra weight that may be carried in the frunk and the suspension itself is going to affect the alignment on the road. It has to. Ever get in front of a Spyder and watch the wheels when someone gets on? I wish someone could put two pressure pads under the wheels to show the effect of weight on them. nojoke

You theoretically could have a Spyder properly aligned per the manual/specs on a hundred Spyders, run them all on the same road for thousands of miles and get different wear due to the *wildcards* involved. The only way to avoid this is to clone every rider and make sure they all drive the same way. Since that is impossible, we all run the gambit on our weight, what we carry with us, HOW we drive and throw in the different kinds of pavements the *wildcards* go up exponentially.

I'm no alignment expert! I just (over) analyze all the factors involved. Having an alignment based on the steps in the manual still has the be the best chance to get even tire wear, but even that isn't perfect.

Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread...but this is an interesting discussion.

But that's what the suspension preload settings are supposed to be for, to compensate for different rider weights and loads, thereby keeping alignment within specs and throwing out 'some' of those *wildcards*.

 

[pierrelogic]

But that's what the suspension preload settings are supposed to be for, to compensate for different rider weights and loads, thereby keeping alignment within specs and throwing out 'some' of those *wildcards*.

Which of course are to adjust the metal shocks and subject to weakening over time due to metal fatigue which is increased by the very nature of repeated loading and unloading when riding a Spyder...yet another "wildcard* I forgot to mention.

It's a vicious "cycle" is it not?