Missing exhaust spring and melted cylinder

[hotglue]

That's a negative.

...and I won't ride it until BRP figures out what's causing it and fixes it right. They sent out the same exact replacement part which will just melt again in 2000 miles like the last one.

See this? BRP already has this photo. Dany took the same shot of mine at the Owners event. They've known about this since before the Owners event.

Notice the plastic top on the master brake cylinder is melted in front.

See the exhaust pipe closest to the master brake cylinder? It has a heat shield. But the plastic cap still melted.

Now look up, see that corrugated plastic piece? That's a wiring loom... it's even closer to the exhaust... and it didn't melt. The wires inside? really thin insulation... did they melt? They less than in inch away... See the plastic zip tie? Purchased from the lowest bidder... not made to handle ANY heat... did it melt? nope.

The body panels come closer to the exhaust pipes than this, and they don't melt either.

So why did the master brake cylinder cap melt?

Simple. It's a defective part. It needs to be replaced with a material that can handle more heat than candle wax before turning to goo.

Replacing it with the same exact part/material is dumb and dangerous. Making another heat shield is a bandaid at best.

The part needs to be remade with a different material.

Actually... the corrugated metal piece contains the parking brake cable. That is a picture I took. But yeah.. it got hot enough to melt the plastic cover on the master cyl.

 

[Sny]

Actually... the corrugated metal piece contains the parking brake cable. That is a picture I took. But yeah.. it got hot enough to melt the plastic cover on the master cyl.

Ah thanks, that'd explain how another members parking brake cable melted...

Anyone lasered this section of pipe when it's good and hot? It seems that it's hotter than previous generations for some reason...

On our GS's there's all kinds of plastic bits near the exhaust pipes and they don't show any signs of melting... maybe not THAT close but.

If this pipe is hotter... why? too lean? hard to believe... wouldn't run right.

Does anyone think that a heat shield is all that's needed to straighten out this issue? I'm not convinced...

 

[hotglue]

Sny, I'm as frustrated about this as anyone. The heat effected areas raise concerns about the degradation of the master cyl seals, pistons and the condition of the brake fluid, not to mention the possibility of failure or fire due to leaking brake fluid. An 'effective' heat shield would eliminate the heat problem. BRP will need to address these issues.

 

[SpyderAnn01]

Ah thanks, that'd explain how another members parking brake cable melted...

Anyone lasered this section of pipe when it's good and hot? It seems that it's hotter than previous generations for some reason...

On our GS's there's all kinds of plastic bits near the exhaust pipes and they don't show any signs of melting... maybe not THAT close but.

If this pipe is hotter... why? too lean? hard to believe... wouldn't run right.

Does anyone think that a heat shield is all that's needed to straighten out this issue? I'm not convinced...

And that would be my parking brake cable that melted on my 2013 RT. So it seems that maybe the problem isn't just with the ST

 

[billybovine]

The same master cylinder has been used on all models since the 2009 model year. Melting issues have not started until this year. So I have to respectfully disagree that the root cause is the material in the master cylinder.
The exhaust system used on the 2013 ST, RT, RS and 2011, 2012 RT are the same. So if these models share the same master cylinder, exhaust system in the same locations. Why do some models have a problem and others don't?

 

[Sny]

Are you sure that 2013s have the same master cylinder? 2013s have a new brake system.

 

[billybovine]

Are you sure that 2013s have the same master cylinder? 2013s have a new brake system.

They are all the same except 2008 MY. The big change for 2013 was the Brembo front brake calipers. There may be some other minor changes but the other basic system parts are the same.

 

[SpyderAnn01]

I was told by the BRP Tech at Maggie Valley that the parking brake cables on the 2013 are from a new source

 

[Firefly]

The same master cylinder has been used on all models since the 2009 model year. Melting issues have not started until this year. So I have to respectfully disagree that the root cause is the material in the master cylinder.
The exhaust system used on the 2013 ST, RT, RS and 2011, 2012 RT are the same. So if these models share the same master cylinder, exhaust system in the same locations. Why do some models have a problem and others don't?

While this may be true, BRP doesn't make the master cylinders and their supplier may have changed how they're made, materials used, 3rd party suppliers of the plastic, etc.

It's either a problem of faulty parts, increased heat, or a combination of the two. I lean more towards faulty parts as the cause.

There were a dozen or more(that we know of) Spyder fires prior to the 2013 models being released. The cause of these fires was never conclusively determined, although many of us speculated it was related to the evap canister and the venting of it. BRP did make changes in that area... Software and hardware, but never confirmed this had anything to do with the fires.

Now I wonder if those could have been caused by faulty master cylinder parts and brake fluid spraying onto the hot pipes.

 

[billybovine]

I was told by the BRP Tech at Maggie Valley that the parking brake cables on the 2013 are from a new source

Part number changed so very likely true.

 

[Bob Denman]

There were a dozen or more(that we know of) Spyder fires prior to the 2013 models being released. The cause of these fires was never conclusively determined, although many of us speculated it was related to the evap canister and the venting of it. BRP did make changes in that area... Software and hardware, but never confirmed this had anything to do with the fires.

Now I wonder if those could have been caused by faulty master cylinder parts and brake fluid spraying onto the hot pipes.

I also recall those reports; did anybody mention a loss of braking ability, just before things got interesting? :yikes:

 

[billybovine]

While this may be true, BRP doesn't make the master cylinders and their supplier may have changed how they're made, materials used, 3rd party suppliers of the plastic, etc.

It's either a problem of faulty parts, increased heat, or a combination of the two. I lean more towards faulty parts as the cause.

There were a dozen or more(that we know of) Spyder fires prior to the 2013 models being released. The cause of these fires was never conclusively determined, although many of us speculated it was related to the evap canister and the venting of it. BRP did make changes in that area... Software and hardware, but never confirmed this had anything to do with the fires.

Now I wonder if those could have been caused by faulty master cylinder parts and brake fluid spraying onto the hot pipes.

Plastic specifications are standardized and it would only take a couple days for a laboratory to determine if the plastic meets spec. That would be an easy fix if that was the problem. Also take into account that all 2013 models have been standardized and share the same frame, master cylinder and exhaust. Yet the RS's do not seem to have a melting issue (so far). So is it the part?

Now I am no expert in brake fluid but as I look at the MSDS for NAPA DOT4 is has a flash temperature of 275 degree F yet the other characteristic for flammability are listed as undetermined. So what does that mean? From what I can tell is that it will burn in an atomized state but not ignite or sustain a flame on it's own in a liquid form. So if it sprays out of the master cylinder it certainly can cause a flash fire. But the top of the master cylinder made of plastic is not on the pressure side and if it fails brake fluid will run out due to gravity, not spray out. Making the chances of fire unlikely but not impossible.

I think it's an airflow problem. The parts are being exposed to the same amount of radiant heat as before but are not able to pass that heat off to the air passing by. Now the fix could be to change the air flow. That may be hard or easy to do. Change all the components in that area to more heat resistant ones. Expensive. Add some heat shielding around the exhaust. Cheap and quick.

As shade tree engineers we do not have all the info or the resources to put our theories to the test.

 

[DR Buck]

............................

As shade tree engineers we do not have all the info or the resources to put our theories to the test.

Not everyone that owns or works on their Spyder is a "shade tree engineer". Some owners are real engineers and mechanics specializing in things like space systems, thermodynamics, fluid motion & hydraulics, mechanical systems, automotive and motorcycle mechanics, etc, etc..... Some even have their own resources. At times there are numerous questionable diagnosis posted to the various Spyder problems many are based on actual observation and measurements made by qualified individuals that have the proper resources.

You just need to figure out which one and who made them. :roflblack:

 

[NancysToy]

Plastic specifications are standardized and it would only take a couple days for a laboratory to determine if the plastic meets spec. That would be an easy fix if that was the problem. Also take into account that all 2013 models have been standardized and share the same frame, master cylinder and exhaust. Yet the RS's do not seem to have a melting issue (so far). So is it the part?

Now I am no expert in brake fluid but as I look at the MSDS for NAPA DOT4 is has a flash temperature of 275 degree F yet the other characteristic for flammability are listed as undetermined. So what does that mean? From what I can tell is that it will burn in an atomized state but not ignite or sustain a flame on it's own in a liquid form. So if it sprays out of the master cylinder it certainly can cause a flash fire. But the top of the master cylinder made of plastic is not on the pressure side and if it fails brake fluid will run out due to gravity, not spray out. Making the chances of fire unlikely but not impossible.

I think it's an airflow problem. The parts are being exposed to the same amount of radiant heat as before but are not able to pass that heat off to the air passing by. Now the fix could be to change the air flow. That may be hard or easy to do. Change all the components in that area to more heat resistant ones. Expensive. Add some heat shielding around the exhaust. Cheap and quick.

As shade tree engineers we do not have all the info or the resources to put our theories to the test.

I agree with much of what you said. Brake fluid does not vaporize readily, so must be atomized to sustain a fire. It is used in braking systems because it is quite stable when heated. Brake systems get hot, and leaks do not generally cause fires.

I have also suspected that these issues are related, at least in part, to subtle differences in air flow...possibly due to the new frame and body designs, and maybe changes in the venting airflow with the ST bodywork.

I am not going to rule out changes in the material or supplier as a cause as yet. Easy to test, but possibly not done or the test results weren't conclusive, as yet. Even if the parts or material tested as defective, it takes time to work out a solution.

I'm also wondering if the exhaust heat shield design or position changed slightly. That still doesn't explain why the RS doesn't seem to have the problem, but it could be a factor.

Just my random thoughts.

 

[Bob Denman]

I wonder if BRP's engineers ever stop in thinking :chat:, "What have those fools thought up NOW?"
Then, I have to wonder if we ever get them pointed in the proper direction... :dontknow:

 

[Jeriatric]

For anyone that may be interested in what the temps are when the Tupperware is buttoned up.

Varying trigger levels.

http://www.tiptemp.com/Products/Single-Temperature-Label

What's Included:

• (1) Pack of 50 Labels
• Unlimited Technical Support
• Instructions

Probably more info to be found if you care to dig around the site a bit.

 

[Sny]

Now I am no expert in brake fluid but as I look at the MSDS for NAPA DOT4 is has a flash temperature of 275 degree F yet the other characteristic for flammability are listed as undetermined. So what does that mean? From what I can tell is that it will burn in an atomized state but not ignite or sustain a flame on it's own in a liquid form. So if it sprays out of the master cylinder it certainly can cause a flash fire. But the top of the master cylinder made of plastic is not on the pressure side and if it fails brake fluid will run out due to gravity, not spray out. Making the chances of fire unlikely but not impossible.

Flash temp is the temp that an open flame or spark needs to be to ignite it.
Auto-ignition temp is the temp that no open flame or spark is needed. The auto-ignition temp of brake fluid is around 419F. Lower than paper.

Put a piece of paper on a hot exhaust pipe and see if it catches fire.

As for leaking out, mine sprayed all over the exhaust which is now completely black from burnt brake fluid. After removing the panels you could step on the pedal and watch it spray directly onto the exhaust pipe and turn into a white sweet smelling smoke instantly.

Where there's smoke there's fire. It certainly could be the cause of a fire, but I don't think it's common. Every time I've seen brake fluid hit something hot it just turns to sweet steam.

 

[Sny]

I have also suspected that these issues are related, at least in part, to subtle differences in air flow...possibly due to the new frame and body designs, and maybe changes in the venting airflow with the ST bodywork.
Just my random thoughts.

I'll add my random thoughts...

If air flow is a factor then this would indicate the plastic (and parking brake line?) is melting due to the air temp being high enough to melt it. This seems really unlikely. Air temps that high under the plastic would cause 3rd degree burns almost instantly if it escaped and hit flesh.

More likely this is radiant heat. Direct radiation onto the plastic can melt the plastic while only raising the air temp a relatively small amount. An example is your leather seat getting really hot in the sun even tho the air is nowhere near that temp.

The third way heat transfers is conduction, which is direct contact. This doesn't seem to be the case.

Air flow could cool the pipe which would reduce radiant heat coming off it... but it would take a lot of air, and the air would heat up quite a bit. Might be possible tho... I haven't done any math (and probably wouldn't have enough information to anyhow.)

 

[Spydr in KS]

Is this the part you looked at?

Pulled the Tupperware and found the master cylinder. So far looks ok at 2500 miles.

Did find another left side panel with 2 out of 3 bolts missing. It was the black one by my footboard. The threaded retainer clips were even missing!

 

[WackyDan]

While this may be true, BRP doesn't make the master cylinders and their supplier may have changed how they're made, materials used, 3rd party suppliers of the plastic, etc.

It's either a problem of faulty parts, increased heat, or a combination of the two. I lean more towards faulty parts as the cause.

There were a dozen or more(that we know of) Spyder fires prior to the 2013 models being released. The cause of these fires was never conclusively determined, although many of us speculated it was related to the evap canister and the venting of it. BRP did make changes in that area... Software and hardware, but never confirmed this had anything to do with the fires.

Now I wonder if those could have been caused by faulty master cylinder parts and brake fluid spraying onto the hot pipes.

Not to mention that the 2013's have a different frame so the location of the master cylinder may not be exactly the same on the 2013's as in prior models.