Is it a Lemon? surging, popping, backfiring

[Blinc]

I posted on my surging issue before and thought I had it fixed, but its back and won't go away..like my bills.

Problem: surging, popping and backfiring, flat and loss of hp feeling at 3-5krpm in 2nd, 3rd gears.

The surging issues on my SM5 started after my Hindle install when I had about 700 miles on the bike. Per the suggestions on this formum, I have tried the battery reset, the o2 modifier, hotter plugs, racing air system, juicebox, lower octane gas. After I had put the juicebox on with the oem o2 sensor, it actually ran nice for a bit, but its now back to how it was before.

I had the dealership check all of the gaskets and all were fine, although there was some leaking at the hindle, in which they removed the pipe and sealed up for me.

I live in Florida and it is getting quite humid and hot right now, so possibly this has some effect on my issues. I especially notice the lack of horse power and flat spot feelings on hotter days when the temp gauge reads above 85 degrees. (I run the engine ice coolant, does not help)

This spyder just runs way too lean. The dealer says there is nothing they can do to fix the issue since its all computer set and there is no adjustment that can be done. I can try going back to the stock pipes, but who wants to do that after running a Hindle? RXX mentioned a dyno-boost he got on ebay that fixed his issue, but says his temp gauge no longer reads accurate and I like to know what the real temp is.

I have not heard of any other fixes for this that I have not tried, so am I sadly stuck with this? If any other suggesstions, I will gladly try them!!

 

[WaltH]

I would try going back to the stock muffler for a few days. This should tell you what effect the Hindle has on your problem.

 

[ataDude]

I would try going back to the stock muffler for a few days. This should tell you what effect the Hindle has on your problem.

Don't forget the race air box. That really leans it out.

.

 

[Firefly]

I don't think you want to go back to the stock pipe when running the race airflow setup.

I'm not familiar with how well the juice box works with the things you've added.... but I can tell you I have ZERO problems like what you're having--- and this is my setup:

Ken's race aiflow system.
Ken's O2 modifier.
Ken's fuel Pressure Mod.
Hindle Pipe.

With the fuel pressure mod you can increase the gas flow and make sure you won't run lean.

Considering you spent the big $$$$ on the race airflow, I would have spent another $100 and got the fuel pressue mod and separate guage so you can tweak your fuel pressure. Cheaper than the juicebox.

Unless the juicebox is programmed for your setup (race airflow, hindle, etc.) then it's just a guessing game on what it should do.

I would talk to Ken - he should know what to do.

 

[NancysToy]

It's time for some serious troubleshooting. First, you are fighting yourself with your mods. Adding things like the Hindle and race air system make the Spyder run leaner. If you are already on the verge of too lean, which it sounds like, these make it worse. Hotter plugs will only magnify your problem. The O2 modifier and juicebox do similar things to each other, and will richen your mixture to offset the lean condition, but they are not really effective when used together. I'd leave off the O2 modifier and use the juicebox with the stock sensor. You have not said what changes to the juicebox programing have done. That should tell you something. I am not that confident that you don't have an exhaust leak. That can certainly cause the mild to severe popping in the exhaust (as can other things). It should not cause the engine to be down on power and run poorly, though, unless the leak is near the engine and quite bad.

Basic tuning 101: Change one thing at a time, and note which direction it takes you. If worse, don't leave it, put it back to where it was and change something else. Read the plugs! If they are cooked, you are running way too lean. Best to read them after a steady run, by clicking off the engine and pulling them. Idling will change their color.

My advice is to unhook everything, and see if you still have problems. If so, give it to the dealer and have them sort it out. Most likely ignition breakdown or a fuel system malfunction. If it runs well back at stock, change one item at a time and assess the effect at each step. There are severe limits on what can be done to tune a Spyder due to the locked ECM program. Get what you can out of it, and try to be satisfied.
-Scotty

 

[opticat]

Basic tuning 101! Yes, Scotty!

:agree:

 

[bone crusher]

It's time for some serious troubleshooting. First, you are fighting yourself with your mods. Adding things like the Hindle and race air system make the Spyder run leaner. If you are already on the verge of too lean, which it sounds like, these make it worse. Hotter plugs will only magnify your problem. The O2 modifier and juicebox do similar things to each other, and will richen your mixture to offset the lean condition, but they are not really effective when used together. I'd leave off the O2 modifier and use the juicebox with the stock sensor. You have not said what changes to the juicebox programing have done. That should tell you something. I am not that confident that you don't have an exhaust leak. That can certainly cause the mild to severe popping in the exhaust (as can other things). It should not cause the engine to be down on power and run poorly, though, unless the leak is near the engine and quite bad.

Basic tuning 101: Change one thing at a time, and note which direction it takes you. If worse, don't leave it, put it back to where it was and change something else. Read the plugs! If they are cooked, you are running way too lean. Best to read them after a steady run, by clicking off the engine and pulling them. Idling will change their color.

My advice is to unhook everything, and see if you still have problems. If so, give it to the dealer and have them sort it out. Most likely ignition breakdown or a fuel system malfunction. If it runs well back at stock, change one item at a time and assess the effect at each step. There are severe limits on what can be done to tune a Spyder due to the locked ECM program. Get what you can out of it, and try to be satisfied.
-Scotty

The professor has spoken...heed his advice...Scotty is da man!

 

[docdoru]

IMO you definitely need Evoluzione Fuel Pressure Modifier and adjust the Juice Box. PM me with your location in Tampa. :shemademe_smilie::spyder:

 

[NancysToy]

I agree 100% Scotty! The only thing I'd add is that reading the plugs in a modern fuel injected engine isn't as easy as the old days. Normal running conditions today leave plugs looking like what we would have considered lean on an engine with less technology...:doorag:

:agree: The only hope with these engines is to read them with a lighted magnifier, at the very base of the insulator. On the other hand, if the plugs are seriously cooked, there is certainly a severe lean problem that must be dealt with before engine damage occurs. Worth a look, even with a PITA engine to remove the plugs like the Spyder.
-Scotty

 

[ataDude]

I'm sitting here thinking... dangerous. I'm going to pretend that I don't know the sequence of installs, BTW. I will ramble below.

He lives in FL where it is humid. There is a chance it's a wetness thing... others, like me, have run an aftermarket exhaust, air cleaner, Juice Box, et al and didn't have these problems.

I read long ago about one guy who had dampness problems with a lower electrical connection... don't know which one but it was low on the bike... under the steering, I believe.

We also know that the Juice Box can't make the mixture any leaner - it can only enrichen. However, I did talk with Two Brothers Racing when I installed mine and they did say that it most definitely makes a difference how the leads are connected... different from another post.

The longest Juice Box FI lead goes to the left side (according to TBR but not in the written instructions)... I believe that to be the front injector... but, regardless - long to the left.

I'm actually with Scotty... except that I would back the mods off one at a time as a process of elimination.

If you get to the point of "no mods"... and it still does it... then I'd check all of the lower connectors.

And, you can't just disconnect the Juice Box's ground lead to "turn it off"... been there, done that. You'll cause a "Check engine" fault.

Finally, with the JB install, the harness actually has two O2 plugs if I recall... one, from the O2 sensor and one, to the bikes wiring harness under the seat. Check that both of those are good connections.

And, while you were installing the race air flow fliter or JB, did you unintentionally loosen any of the vacuum hoses? You may have removed them while trying to get to the left side FI plug.

Did you loosen the throttle position sensor? That's a no-no.. would need to be re-sync'd with BUDDS.

Having all of those mods, here's the sequence of attack that I would use:

1. Check vacuum hoses for correct connections.

2. <New> Check to ensure that breather hose from left rear of engine is actually connected to the race air flow system with the 3/8" ID hose provided by evoluzion and sealed with the stock hose clamps (if not, that would cause a heck of a vacuum leak and a mess, to boot)

3. Check to ensure that longest JB FI lead is connected to the left side injector.

4. Uninstall the Juice Box (only because it's easy to get to, at this stage).

5. Uninstall the race air flow filter.

6. Uninstall the Hindle (I just don't think it's related to the Hindle, personally).

If you get to this stage, it goes back to the dealer. It's now stock and they must fix it.

.

 

[spyder13]

race air filter

I have the race air filter, LeoVince exhaust, and running with the o2 sensor in. Mine runs great. I live in central Florida. What Lbs. are you running on the fuel pressure? I had to go to 63lbs to be able to put o2 sensor back in and run ok. I get no surging,no back firing or bad running problems. Just real good HP. If your close I could check it for you. ( I'm an auto tech)

 

[Firefly]

I don't believe he's running the fuel pressure mod - which I believe to be the problem He's running too lean with the increased airflow (hindle + race airflow). Gotta get more fuel in there and I don't think the JB is able to do it.

I run at 62 lbs pressure, O2 mod and Hindle and my bike screams. Never a surge, backfire, lag - nothing.

I have not checked the plugs - but it's really easy to get to them without the nasty BRP 'air/oil box' in the way.

Your BRP tech might be leery of doing much troubleshooting with all your mods on it - for sure won't do it under warranty that way.

 

[ataDude]

en contrare, senior firefly.

I ran the dual pipes (much freer than the Hindle), the race air filter and the Juice Box and all was well except for the intake noise. The from-the-factory settings on the JB were fine for that setup.

I still run the JB (without the race filter) but modified the settings to improve only heavy acceleration and top end. Still much improved.

I may, however, build a gen-u-ine Firefly quiet box (is it patented?) for my race filter and eventually put it back on. That setup (JB, race and pipes) really ran great... SOP impression was +8-10 HP.

.

I don't believe he's running the fuel pressure mod - which I believe to be the problem He's running too lean with the increased airflow (hindle + race airflow). Gotta get more fuel in there and I don't think the JB is able to do it.

I run at 62 lbs pressure, O2 mod and Hindle and my bike screams. Never a surge, backfire, lag - nothing.

I have not checked the plugs - but it's really easy to get to them without the nasty BRP 'air/oil box' in the way.

Your BRP tech might be leery of doing much troubleshooting with all your mods on it - for sure won't do it under warranty that way.

 

[swrafey2000]

I live in Lakeland and had the same problems on my best friends Spyder.The bike would pop,surge,and lose power between 54-58 miles an hour.We went back to the old O2 sensor and the problem went away.He has the same mods as you do.

 

[Blinc]

:agree: The only hope with these engines is to read them with a lighted magnifier, at the very base of the insulator. On the other hand, if the plugs are seriously cooked, there is certainly a severe lean problem that must be dealt with before engine damage occurs. Worth a look, even with a PITA engine to remove the plugs like the Spyder.
-Scotty

Hey Scotty,
I will be able to work on the bike again this Tuesday, but I ran the hotter plugs per the mechanice at the dealership, he suggested those to help with the lean issue, but it sounds like that may not have been sound advice. The original plugs looked fine when I took them off. When running the juicebox, you have to run the stock o2 sensor, so that is already back on the bike. I will however do as you suggested and reverse engineer this thing back to stock if I have to. I have 4k miles on it now and started these mods at 700 miles, (bought the bike used at 700 miles, so not sure how it actually ran before that as I put the hindle on right after getting it)

Doc, I appreciate the PM and will give you a call tomorrow, Monday.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions on this board, glad to see us spyder peep taking care of each other!

 

[Firefly]

I would get new plugs--- standard ones. Sure you don't have an exhaust gasket leak?

 

[Blinc]

I would get new plugs--- standard ones. Sure you don't have an exhaust gasket leak?

I got some new standard plugs today, had a little extra time, so I installed them and took the Hindle off again, cleaned the connection area and resealed with Permatex ultra copper high temp gasket maker. Hope that is the correct stuff. I put a fat layer on the inner sleeve and after putting the hindle on, put another layer on the outside rim, then tightened things up again. Out of time today, so will let this sit overnight and if weather permits, take it for a ride tomorrow.

I will put the stock airbox back on if that does not work, but it sure is nice having all that extra space in the engine area!

 

[Firefly]

I got some new standard plugs today, had a little extra time, so I installed them and took the Hindle off again, cleaned the connection area and resealed with Permatex ultra copper high temp gasket maker. Hope that is the correct stuff. I put a fat layer on the inner sleeve and after putting the hindle on, put another layer on the outside rim, then tightened things up again. Out of time today, so will let this sit overnight and if weather permits, take it for a ride tomorrow.

I will put the stock airbox back on if that does not work, but it sure is nice having all that extra space in the engine area!

Uggg - what a PITA - I hate that stock airbox--- removing it was a pain - installing should be worse. Sorry you're having problems---- wish you lived closer to MI - I'd pop over and give you a hand.

 

[Questions]

I have the same problem

I posted on my surging issue before and thought I had it fixed, but its back and won't go away..like my bills.

Problem: surging, popping and backfiring, flat and loss of hp feeling at 3-5krpm in 2nd, 3rd gears.

The surging issues on my SM5 started after my Hindle install when I had about 700 miles on the bike. Per the suggestions on this formum, I have tried the battery reset, the o2 modifier, hotter plugs, racing air system, juicebox, lower octane gas. After I had put the juicebox on with the oem o2 sensor, it actually ran nice for a bit, but its now back to how it was before.

I had the dealership check all of the gaskets and all were fine, although there was some leaking at the hindle, in which they removed the pipe and sealed up for me.

I live in Florida and it is getting quite humid and hot right now, so possibly this has some effect on my issues. I especially notice the lack of horse power and flat spot feelings on hotter days when the temp gauge reads above 85 degrees. (I run the engine ice coolant, does not help)

This spyder just runs way too lean. The dealer says there is nothing they can do to fix the issue since its all computer set and there is no adjustment that can be done. I can try going back to the stock pipes, but who wants to do that after running a Hindle? RXX mentioned a dyno-boost he got on ebay that fixed his issue, but says his temp gauge no longer reads accurate and I like to know what the real temp is.

I have not heard of any other fixes for this that I have not tried, so am I sadly stuck with this? If any other suggesstions, I will gladly try them!!

Also running Hindle, from the beginning.
and also Live in Florida.