Help! Engine running bad!

[AZ Desert Spyder]

Yesterday, I road with about a dozen other bikers on a great ride through the Arizona mountains. Unfortunately, about half way through the ride, my Spyder started running really bad. I had to keep revving it up just to keep it running at idle and when I tried to take off, I had to rev up to about 4000 just to keep it from stalling when I took off. Once I got up to 3rd or 4th gear, it was much better, but still didn't seem to have as much power as normal. Some of the guys suggested it might be water in the gas, but several of us had gassed up together and nobody else was having an issue. Besides, the bike had run great for at least 50 miles after gassing up last. I put some dry gas in, but that didn't help either. So I headed home and a buddy of mine followed me home in case it got worse. No change on the trip home (about 60 miles) and it still barely kept running when I got home. While idling, it would occasionally rev up to about 2000 on it's own and then drop back down to about 1200 (usually idles around 1400). I decided I'd take it into the shop on Monday. But today, just for kicks, I started it up and suprisingly, it seemed to be idling fine. So I took a ride a couple of miles up the road and back and it ran great! Now I'm really stumped. One more piece of info. When I was having problems, a couple of bikers behind me could smell gas and said puffs of smoke were occasionally coming from my exhaust. Anybody got any idea what might be going on??? ray:

 

[NancysToy]

Yesterday, I road with about a dozen other bikers on a great ride through the Arizona mountains. Unfortunately, about half way through the ride, my Spyder started running really bad. I had to keep revving it up just to keep it running at idle and when I tried to take off, I had to rev up to about 4000 just to keep it from stalling when I took off. Once I got up to 3rd or 4th gear, it was much better, but still didn't seem to have as much power as normal. Some of the guys suggested it might be water in the gas, but several of us had gassed up together and nobody else was having an issue. Besides, the bike had run great for at least 50 miles after gassing up last. I put some dry gas in, but that didn't help either. So I headed home and a buddy of mine followed me home in case it got worse. No change on the trip home (about 60 miles) and it still barely kept running when I got home. While idling, it would occasionally rev up to about 2000 on it's own and then drop back down to about 1200 (usually idles around 1400). I decided I'd take it into the shop on Monday. But today, just for kicks, I started it up and suprisingly, it seemed to be idling fine. So I took a ride a couple of miles up the road and back and it ran great! Now I'm really stumped. One more piece of info. When I was having problems, a couple of bikers behind me could smell gas and said puffs of smoke were occasionally coming from my exhaust. Anybody got any idea what might be going on??? ray:

The puffs of smoke, or more correctly steam, are a clue to having water in the gas. I suspect your dry gas just took a while to combine with the water and break it down enough to pass through the injectors. I'd put some known, good gas in it as soon as you run the tank of crud down...and I would do another round of drygas...or some marine grade Stabil.

 

[boborgera]

If the gas from the pump already has 10% ethanol, Adding dry gas is not the best thing to use, Star Tron, Sea Foam, Or the new Stabil is the better way to go.

 

[AMTJIM]

Also kinda sounds like some of the descriptions when one of the plug wires were/went going bad. Happened suddenly, had to rev the engine, unusual smoke, fumes and smell of gas. Some had exhaust fires. It has cleared up for now, so :dontknow:... Sounds like a good exercise of the warranty if it's still available.

 

[MikeinGA]

Yesterday, I road with about a dozen other bikers on a great ride through the Arizona mountains. Unfortunately, about half way through the ride, my Spyder started running really bad. I had to keep revving it up just to keep it running at idle and when I tried to take off, I had to rev up to about 4000 just to keep it from stalling when I took off. Once I got up to 3rd or 4th gear, it was much better, but still didn't seem to have as much power as normal. Some of the guys suggested it might be water in the gas, but several of us had gassed up together and nobody else was having an issue. Besides, the bike had run great for at least 50 miles after gassing up last. I put some dry gas in, but that didn't help either. So I headed home and a buddy of mine followed me home in case it got worse. No change on the trip home (about 60 miles) and it still barely kept running when I got home. While idling, it would occasionally rev up to about 2000 on it's own and then drop back down to about 1200 (usually idles around 1400). I decided I'd take it into the shop on Monday. But today, just for kicks, I started it up and suprisingly, it seemed to be idling fine. So I took a ride a couple of miles up the road and back and it ran great! Now I'm really stumped. One more piece of info. When I was having problems, a couple of bikers behind me could smell gas and said puffs of smoke were occasionally coming from my exhaust. Anybody got any idea what might be going on??? ray:

First I need to know is the model, year, and mileage. It maybe a lot of things, like bad spark plug or wire, bag gas with water and/or dirt, clogged gas filter. The first thing that comes to me is that it happened after a fillup. Do not drive it, this can do a lot of damage to the engine. I would take the inlit hose off fuel filter and dran the gas tank. Then replace the gas filter and add 2 1/2 gallons of high test gas (it has the most cleaners in it). If the engine runs better, then take on a short ride (10 to 15 miles). If the engine runs ok get a can of fuel injector cleaner and put in the 1/4 of the can in the tank at the gas station and fill it tank with high test gas. If the engine is still running bad take it to a good dealer. That's IMHO.


Mike

 

[Campverdefela]

First I need to know is the model, year, and mileage. It maybe a lot of things, like bad spark plug or wire, bag gas with water and/or dirt, clogged gas filter. The first thing that comes to me is that it happened after a fillup. Do not drive it, this can do a lot of damage to the engine. I would take the inlit hose off fuel filter and dran the gas tank. Then replace the gas filter and add 2 1/2 gallons of high test gas (it has the most cleaners in it). If the engine runs better, then take on a short ride (10 to 15 miles). If the engine runs ok get a can of fuel injector cleaner and put in the 1/4 of the can in the tank at the gas station and fill it tank with high test gas. If the engine is still running bad take it to a good dealer. That's IMHO.


Mike

:agree: Good advise !

 

[AZ Desert Spyder]

Thanks for the advice!

Thanks to all for the comments/suggestions. I just spoke to a mechanic at the dealership and he says the Spyder's ECM sometimes "freaks out" at higher altitudes and he suggests we do a software reload. The elevation here is about 1800 whereas I was above 5K (in Prescott, AZ) when it happened, so it's possible. But I've been to Prescott several times before with no problems, so I'm not totally convinced. At any rate, I'm taking it in tomorrow to have that done and of course I'll have them check everything out to make sure nothing else is going on. I'll also drain the gas and change the gas filter just to be safe.
Thanks again!
Rick

 

[BajaRon]

Thanks to all for the comments/suggestions. I just spoke to a mechanic at the dealership and he says the Spyder's ECM sometimes "freaks out" at higher altitudes and he suggests we do a software reload. The elevation here is about 1800 whereas I was above 5K (in Prescott, AZ) when it happened, so it's possible. But I've been to Prescott several times before with no problems, so I'm not totally convinced. At any rate, I'm taking it in tomorrow to have that done and of course I'll have them check everything out to make sure nothing else is going on. I'll also drain the gas and change the gas filter just to be safe.
Thanks again!
Rick

Anything is possible, I suppose. But 5,000 ft elevation should not be an issue. I'll be interested to find out what the problem is.

 

[wyliec]

I'll also drain the gas and change the gas filter just to be safe.
Thanks again!
Rick

As was posted on here in another thread when changing out the gas filter, it is best to go to fuel injection clamps and not just worm clamps:


http://www.fuelfilters.biz/fuel_injection_hose_.htm

 

[pro10is]

If the gas from the pump already has 10% ethanol, Adding dry gas is not the best thing to use...

This is correct, do not add additional alcohol to E10 gasoline, it won't do any good. "Dry Gas" is either methanol or isopropyl alcohol. Alcohol is hydroscopic meaning it will attract water. Adding additional alcohol to your gas which already contains 10% ethanol alcohol will at best do nothing and at worse, if you have phase separation (enough water in the gasoline to separate out and sink to the bottom), it will combine with the water at the bottom only and you'll be burning a water/alcohol mixture of unknown proportion which can cause problems. You may eventually get rid of the water but you'll be forcing your engine to burn alcohol in a much higher concentration than it was ever designed for.

If you have phase separation then the best way to remove the water is to drain the tank. This is what I suggest.

If you want to try to clear up the problem with an additive then the best product to use IMHO is Starbrite Star Tron Fuel Tank Cleaner (not Star Tron gas additive). Star Tron Fuel Tank Cleaner is designed to clean out tanks with fuel problems in situ and uses enzymes rather than alcohol or emulsifiers which can cause more problems than they fix.

Once you've removed the water the best way to prevent water issues in the future is to purchase gas from gas stations with a good reputation. To manage small amounts of water in the fuel from becoming a problem consider using a fuel additive designed to prevent phase separation. The best product I found in my extensive research was Star Tron enzyme fuel treatment. It does not contain alcohol (such as Sea Foam) or emulsifiers (such as Stabil). You already have enough alcohol in E10 gasoline and emulsifiers force alcohol and water back into the gas but have been known to solidify oil and other gasoline additives causing gelling. Enzymes on the other hand break up the water into sub-micron particles which allow it to be dispersed and burned without issues. But you can do your own research and decide what product you want to use.

 

[AZ Desert Spyder]

Final analysis will be posted

Anything is possible, I suppose. But 5,000 ft elevation should not be an issue. I'll be interested to find out what the problem is.

I'm no mechanic but I certainly agree....especially since I've had my Spyder at even higher altitudes before and never had an issue. And since the problem seems to have disappeared now, I'm leaning toward thinking it might have been the bad gas issue. But the fact that the problem didn't start until at least 50 or 60 miles after I gassed up makes me think that scenario doesn't fit either. I would think water in the tank would cause problems almost immediately. Besides, several other bikes gassed up at the same time and didn't have any issues, so that doesn't seem to make sense either. On the other hand, they were at different pumps and may not have pumped from the same underground tank. At any rate, I'll certainly post whatever I find out from the dealer.

Response to pro10is...
Thanks for the info. I will definitely get some Starbrite Star Tron Fuel Tank Cleaner . But regarding your comment "purchase gas from gas stations with a good reputation", that's almost impossible when you're out of town like I was.

Response to wyliec...
Thanks for the info. I will use fuel injection clamps!

 

[BajaRon]

I'm no mechanic but I certainly agree....especially since I've had my Spyder at even higher altitudes before and never had an issue. And since the problem seems to have disappeared now, I'm leaning toward thinking it might have been the bad gas issue. But the fact that the problem didn't start until at least 50 or 60 miles after I gassed up makes me think that scenario doesn't fit either. I would think water in the tank would cause problems almost immediately. Besides, several other bikes gassed up at the same time and didn't have any issues, so that doesn't seem to make sense either. On the other hand, they were at different pumps and may not have pumped from the same underground tank. At any rate, I'll certainly post whatever I find out from the dealer.

Response to pro10is...
Thanks for the info. I will definitely get some Starbrite Star Tron Fuel Tank Cleaner . But regarding your comment "purchase gas from gas stations with a good reputation", that's almost impossible when you're out of town like I was.

Response to wyliec...
Thanks for the info. I will use fuel injection clamps!

You can get bad gas anywhere. Rule of thumb is use a highly trafficed station and never fuel up when the delivery truck is around. When fuel is delivered it stirs up whatever sediment is in the bottom of the tank. It takes awhile for this to settle back to the bottom. Stations that get frequent deliveries tend to get less sediment.

Pumps have filters and it depends on how well maintained and how good the filter system is. Also, if you're paying for premium (like I do) it is best to find stations that have a separate hose for each grade of gas. In a 25 gallon tank it's not that big a deal if you get 1/2 gallon of regular before the premium kicks in. but in 5 gallons it's not such a great deal.

But as you say, when you're out of town it's tougher to make a good choice.

Hope they can tell you what went wrong. They may not be able to give you a definite answer.

 

[AZ Desert Spyder]

The saga continues....

Well, after having the bike in the shop for a week, the dealer can't find anything wrong. They said it was "throwing a sensor" and they couldn't figure out why. They couldn't find anything wrong except that the negative battery connection could be a bit tighter so they tightened it and then put several miles on it and said it was running fine. I really can't imagine that being the problem, but I thought I'd give it a try. I trailered it back home and the next day, I took a ride. Within 3 or 4 miles, it started acting up again. This time, I RODE it to the dealer so they could see how it was acting. Again, it would rev up and down while idling and would occasionally backfire. One of the guys said it sounded like maybe the throttle sensor was bad. Duh! If there's a throttle sensor, wouldn't that have been one of the first things they would check before??? Anyway, let's hope they find the problem this time. I'll post another update when I find out what was REALLY wrong!

 

[Lamonster]

Could be bad TPS or could be a bad vacuum line. :dontknow:

 

[Campverdefela]

Well, after having the bike in the shop for a week, the dealer can't find anything wrong. They said it was "throwing a sensor" and they couldn't figure out why. They couldn't find anything wrong except that the negative battery connection could be a bit tighter so they tightened it and then put several miles on it and said it was running fine. I really can't imagine that being the problem, but I thought I'd give it a try. I trailered it back home and the next day, I took a ride. Within 3 or 4 miles, it started acting up again. This time, I RODE it to the dealer so they could see how it was acting. Again, it would rev up and down while idling and would occasionally backfire. One of the guys said it sounded like maybe the throttle sensor was bad. Duh! If there's a throttle sensor, wouldn't that have been one of the first things they would check before??? Anyway, let's hope they find the problem this time. I'll post another update when I find out what was REALLY wrong!

Did you ever drain the tank and replace the fuel filter? The fact that you originally went 60 miles before something happened really doesn't matter if it was sludge in the gas which would take a little time before it started to plug the filter.

 

[NancysToy]

It might pay to check the emissions system for vacuum leaks. Erratic idle that happens only after an engine warms up, is often caused by a vacuum leak in a switched system. The fuel vent system/purge solenoid/charcoal canister are the most common places for these leaks to occur. This type of problem won't generally show on diagnostics. The tests of the components that are outlined in the shop manual must be performed.

 

[docdoru]

...or could be a bad vacuum line. :dontknow:

Erratic idle that happens only after an engine warms up, is often caused by a vacuum leak in a switched system.

:agree:

 

[3Willie]

Same problem I had! Turned out to be plug wire problem

I had a lot of the same problems you have described with the exception of the elevation change. I tried different additives in the fuel, different and higher fuel grades, checked filters, etc.

Bottom line was the spark plug wires were shorting out but not consistently. The Spyder would only run well at 4000 + RPM and acted much as you have described. Sometimes it ran just fine, but the problem became more prevalent with no consistency to when it would happen. As soon as the spark plug wires were replaced, there were no further problems. The trip to the nearest dealer was quite a distance, so I replaced the wires myself. Not a big issue since I like working on the bike, but if close and under warranty you may as well have the dealer do it.

On a secondary note, I did replace with OEM BRP plug wires, but that was before BajaRon was selling his plug wires. The next set I get will be from him. They look like very high quality wires and are better priced than the OEM ones. The reviews on this website from other owners have been great.

 

[boborgera]

My 08 Gs was acting very similar, Turned out to be a spark plug wire.
It would run great till the engine got hot, then the wire would start arcing, then it wouldn't hold a steady idle.
By the time i finally figured it out it wouldn't run at all.

 

[BajaRon]

It can be hard to check for spark jumping from bad plug wires, especially with the front cylinder. But you can take the tupperware off and run your spyder in the dark. Let your eyes adjust for several minutes and look at the wires. If they are arching anywhere that you can get a decent look see, you should be able to spot it.

You can also use something insulated, like a wooden or plastic handle, etc., and move the wires around some. This can help bring out the worst in a wire if it is an intermittent problem. A bit Micky Mouse but can result in finding the problem.

Trouble is, even if you don't see arching it doesn't mean the wires are good. You can also get gaps in the carbon core on stock wires that the spark can't jump. Or, it could be a completely unrelated issue giving you the same symptoms as bad wires.

Let us know what it is when you finally get it nailed down.