Helmets

[jerpinoy]

Helmet Helmet Helmet :agree::agree::agree: HD rider friends all wear helmet. All survived fatal accident except one coz he didn't strapped. Found his helmet 50 feet away from him. I never ride without fastening my helmet.

 

[Doktor]

I am a statistician.
helmets reduce fatalititestosteronehopping 41%. They redseverity juries by nearly the same amount.
white helmets reduce fatalities by an additional 24%.

This means that a motorcyclist wearing a white helmet has about a 55% less chance of a fatality than one not wearing a helmet at all.

While you are quoting stats, what stats show the years of riding experience? I don't always wear a helmet, in SC it is a personal choice, but I see these younger sports bike riders, full face helmets with video cameras on top of the helmet, I see them burning off their tires, slinging rubber hither and yon. Running their tach's up around 10 grand before hitting their shifter.
They NEED a helmet, and they NEED to fill it with brains, instead of testosterone! I've survived with and without a helmet, but never felt the need to videotape my ability to be stupid! I've got 55 years riding experience, from little scooters and minibikes, to dressers, Vespas, Hondas, Harleys, 2 strokers, even an old Indian. But I have always driven 'like they are out to get you.' Because they probably are. When a helmet becomes a substitute for common sense, I'll take common sense, when bravado is a substitute for thinking defensively, I'll think safely. Stats can be made to say whatever position the person formulating the statistics wants to say. I've worked emergency departments on 3 continents, and I've seen 2 motorcycle wrecks where their helmets saved their lives but sheared their spinal cords, their lives revolve around letting students learn how to insert a catheter into their bladder because they are totally paralyzed and can't pee on their own. In their case, they wished they hadn't had their lives saved, they hit to upper door edge of the car that "didn't see them in the road", thanks but no thanks! They were different accidents in different seasons.


Doc

 

[fas2000]

Yes this is true. It was first studied in New Zealand in a ten year study of bike colors, clothing colors, and helmet colors. This was a very well done study (yes I did read it in its entirity). This study showed that clothing color or bike color did not matter in either crash or fatality statistics. Only helmet color mattered and white reflective helmets reduced fatalities by 24%.

Subsequently a similar study was conducted in Europe. This second study occurred in France and Germany primarily. There were a few Italian data points and a few from UK. But not enough data from outside of France and Germany to make a difference. This was just as well for the Italian data because the motorcycle driving laws do not provide credibility to any Italian based data.

I was consulting on the European study and found the study to be fairly credible. The study had a couple of problems. For one, it did not differentiate between "quality" helmets (for us that would be DOT approved) and low quality helmets. The European study showed between a 24% and a 33% fatality reduction for white helmets. Unfortunately, the investigators did not develop a rider assessment. As a result, they were unable to determine if the observed life-years saved were solely due to white helmets, or whether people who wore white helmets we just more safety minded. I spoke with them about this three or four times, but they claimed that they did not have funding for the additional analysis.

Consequently, I always use the lower number of 24% reduction.

Clearly there are differences between motorcycle driving in New Zealand or Europe and here. However, with a number as large as 24% I am doubtful whether an American based study would result in a significantly lower statistic. What I mean is, even if the statistic was off by 50% it would still be very significant, and should not be ignored.

I tried to develop numbers for trikes (3 wheel motorcycles). However there are too few 3 wheel motorcycle fatalities to be able to make any scientific statements. It is good that in 2011 there were only six deaths on 3 wheel motorcycles. However the lack of data points prevents any science-based statements regarding trikes or Spyders.

Yes I remember your trike analysis I think just about a week back. And thank you for such a in depth and first hand explanation of these studies. I'm atgatt myself, but i will definitely consider white in my helmet more then before.

Fas


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[flaggerphil]

I live in Florida where there is no helmet law. Before that I lived in Missouri, where there IS a helmet law, but was just across the river from Illinois, where there is no helmet law.

As far as I can tell, the brand of bike really doesn't make that much difference. I see HD riders with and without helmets all the time...and I see other brands, including crotch rockets around here, where the riders aren't wearing helmets.

Personally, I wouldn't go out on ANY cycle of ANY type without a helmet on. I've had my life literally saved by wearing not just a helmet, but a GOOD helmet. That's why I continue to buy the best helmet I can afford. These days it's a Shoei RF-1100, though I've worn Arais and Simpsons in the past. I know if I hit something (or something hits me) hard enough a helmet isn't going to save me...but I wear it for all the OTHER times when it will.

I know wearing a helmet is a personal decision in many states, but I simply do not understand why someone would ride without one. I've heard tons of reasons, but, to me, it still comes down to whether I want to survive (or not become a vegetable) the accident I wouldn't survive if I didn't have one on. And, as someone else pointed out, I'd MUCH rather have a helmet on when that big honkin' bug cracks into my head at 70+mph!

Don't wanna wear gloves? Ok...you'll skin your hands up. Don't wanna wear long pants...ok, same with your legs. Short sleeves...same again again with your arms. No boots...broken ankle perhaps. No helmet...mmmmm. No thanks, I'll wear one.

Anyway, I've already had a good helmet save my life. Literally save my life. It's the reason I'm still here at the age of 62 and still riding. To me, that's reason enough.

Oh...I wear seat belts in my cage, too.

 

[Pirate looks at --]

Are you nuts

You can die just driving around town. My brother has been riding for 40 years. He has had his share of spills, but the worst he ever had was a quick dash down the street to a parts store for one of his bikes. A VW wandered across the center divide and he was in some gravel and was unable to avoid a head on collision. He was launched off the wind shield of the VW straight into the air. His head hit the windshield he later hit the ground unconscious. Oh, I forgot to mention he was not wearing a Helmet........he maybe the luckiest helmetless rider in pre helmet law California. You don't know when it is going to happen. Wear the helmet all the time. I wear a full face Arai Defiant helmet with enough ventilation that I have a lot of wind in my face to stay cool even in 100 degree plus weather. There is no reason to not wear one. IMHO

 

[Dan_Ashley]

While you are quoting stats, what stats show the years of riding experience? I don't always wear a helmet, in SC it is a personal choice, but I see these younger sports bike riders, full face helmets with video cameras on top of the helmet, I see them burning off their tires, slinging rubber hither and yon. Running their tach's up around 10 grand before hitting their shifter.
They NEED a helmet, and they NEED to fill it with brains, instead of testosterone! I've survived with and without a helmet, but never felt the need to videotape my ability to be stupid! I've got 55 years riding experience, from little scooters and minibikes, to dressers, Vespas, Hondas, Harleys, 2 strokers, even an old Indian. But I have always driven 'like they are out to get you.' Because they probably are. When a helmet becomes a substitute for common sense, I'll take common sense, when bravado is a substitute for thinking defensively, I'll think safely. Stats can be made to say whatever position the person formulating the statistics wants to say. I've worked emergency departments on 3 continents, and I've seen 2 motorcycle wrecks where their helmets saved their lives but sheared their spinal cords, their lives revolve around letting students learn how to insert a catheter into their bladder because they are totally paralyzed and can't pee on their own. In their case, they wished they hadn't had their lives saved, they hit to upper door edge of the car that "didn't see them in the road", thanks but no thanks! They were different accidents in different seasons.


Doc

Your arguments against wearing a helmet do not have any evidence in support. The arguments are at best anecdotal and are rife with belief.

Perhaps you could provide some published, reviewed, and non-feeling based evidence. That is the very least you could do--after all, that is what I did for you.

 

[boborgera]

I noticed that not one single HD rider was wearing a helmet. It has been my experience that when I see someone on a HD, they are not wearing a helmet. Could someone please explain, is it an unwritten rule that if you ride a HD, you can't wear a helmet?

Yep, It is a rule, When i bought my Two Harley's in order to learn the secret Harley wave' i had to promise not to wear a helmet..

 

[Dan_Ashley]

Yep, It is a rule, When i bought my Two Harley's in order to learn the secret Harley wave' i had to promise not to wear a helmet..

:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack:
roflmaoroflmaoroflmao
:roflblack::b2b::b2b::roflblack:

 

[Doktor]

Your arguments against wearing a helmet do not have any evidence in support. The arguments are at best anecdotal and are rife with belief.

Perhaps you could provide some published, reviewed, and non-feeling based evidence. That is the very least you could do--after all, that is what I did for you.

I didn't suggest that you shouldn't wear a helmet, my examples were not statistical, they were real patients, not anecdotal stats, their helmets were pressed backwards, rotating on the axis of their head, shearing their spinal cord. Both had less than 1 year riding experience. I could probably go to ABATE's website and pull up statistics to support my thesis, my point is that statistics don't drive cars and not look for motorcycles and a lack of experience is generally the primary cause of most of the motorcycle accidents that I've treated. Yes, I am using stats, but they are my personal experience stats. I've never been published, but I have reviewed my own past.
There are old bikers and bold bikers, but not many old, bold bikers.

Doc

 

[Bob Denman]

Hey; Who wants some ice cream??

 

[Pirate looks at --]

But

Hey; Who wants some ice cream??

...do we need to wear a helmet for that?

 

[Bob Denman]

:lecturef_smilie: Only if we're running with scissors in the house also! :2thumbs: :roflblack:

 

[Magdave]

Hey; Who wants some ice cream??

I want Pie :yes:

 

[PW2013STL]

Years ago I was at a dealership that was into racing motorcycles and they sold a lot of crotch rockets. I state trooper came in inquiring about a helmet he had ordered. He was told that it had not arrived yet. His comment was that he cannot pick up his new R1 until he has his helmet. I asked him if it was his first motorcycle and he sauid no he also owns a Harley. I asked him why he doesn't wear that helmet. His answer was he doesn't wear a helmet when he rides the Harley. So being the smartass that I am I asked him "does that mean Harley riders don't crash":roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: He answered no and walked out.

I also have a Harley and yes I wear a helmet.

 

[Dan_Ashley]

I didn't suggest that you shouldn't wear a helmet, my examples were not statistical, they were real patients, not anecdotal stats, their helmets were pressed backwards, rotating on the axis of their head, shearing their spinal cord. Both had less than 1 year riding experience. I could probably go to ABATE's website and pull up statistics to support my thesis, my point is that statistics don't drive cars and not look for motorcycles and a lack of experience is generally the primary cause of most of the motorcycle accidents that I've treated. Yes, I am using stats, but they are my personal experience stats. I've never been published, but I have reviewed my own past.
There are old bikers and bold bikers, but not many old, bold bikers.

Doc

I've never seen one of ABATE's studies which were scientifically valid. If you know of any, please forward the citation to me.

 

[Bob Ledford]

The answer to the question is

I was at my dealer on Saturday to get my recall done on my RT-S. This dealer is primarily HD but they also have Can-Am and Suzuki. They were having a memorial ride for a club member. It was all HD and 1 Ninja. I noticed that not one single HD rider was wearing a helmet. It has been my experience that when I see someone on a HD, they are not wearing a helmet. Could someone please explain, is it an unwritten rule that if you ride a HD, you can't wear a helmet? I myself wear a half helmet when it's warmer and a full helmet with face shield when it's cooler. For just riding around town, I usually don't wear a helmet. My wife always wears a helmet, no matter where we're going. I'm not judging anyone. I just want to get some different viewpoints and opinions. Thank you.

Another thread hijacked:

The real answer could be? That it is a party of the bad boy attitude most HD cult members try to project. It is not considered to be a part of the average or below average percentage of those that choose to wear the cult uniform. What is the cult uniform? The following has not been scientifically researched, it is purely a 58 year of exposure to the HD cult uniform wearers.

The uniform I am refering to is the dew rag, old bus drivers cap, or blewing hair, the black t-shirt, with or without stupid saying's sleeves or sleeveless, sun shades day or night, 2 inch belt and belt buckle, trucker drivers bill bold with chain, hook or repelling carbiner for keys (got to be a minimum of a dozen or more keys to be authentic with a can opener or chruch key), hunting knife with worn out sheath, dirty dungarees with at least one hole in a knee or the butt, and a pair of scruffy run over black, never been polished engineer type boots with a minimum of one buckle strap over the top of the foot. The human body of the uniform were must have not been fresh shaven for a week or more, a haircut in at least 8 weeks, a minimum of 1 ear piercing and 1 or more obnoxious faded tattoo's. Peferred to have a real limp from at least one or more encounters with the pavement striking him or her when not looking.

Desclaimer - No harm no foul at anyone in particular just purely a personal observation of the species in question.

I am putting my fire suit on as I finish this up and sincerely hope that it satisifies your quest for knowledge. :roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::roflblack::lecturef_smilie::lecturef_smilie::lecturef_smilie::lecturef_smilie::lecturef_smilie::lecturef_smilie::lecturef_smilie:

 

[Bob Denman]

 

[bullant12]

But some of them wear those non-DOT approved novelty helmets....you see them--they look like old WWII German helmets. Then to make it even worse they stick things like spikes on the helmet. I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt.

True... but some have at least the DOT sticker... somewhere between the :cus:load of stickers they have on it!

 

[Dan_Ashley]

Helmet study

Here is a study which states that wearing helmets does not help you stay alive.

http://www.bikersrights.com/statistics/goldstein/goldstein2.html

if you read this carefully you can see where the study reaches incorrect results due to a simple mathematical error. Hint: the variable X takes on a zero value in several places. Then it is used as a divisor.

but it is an entertaining read--if you like to analyze junk like this! ....this is a little better study: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6123a1.htm ....it is not perfect in that it doesn't thoroughly address confounding factors...however, it is pretty good as a base line report.

 

[Dubld]

After reading some of these posts, I have decided to always wear a helmet from now on.