• There were many reasons for the change of the site software, the biggest was security. The age of the old software also meant no server updates for certain programs. There are many benefits to the new software, one of the biggest is the mobile functionality. Ill fix up some stuff in the coming days, we'll also try to get some of the old addons back or the data imported back into the site like the garage. To create a thread or to reply with a post is basically the same as it was in the prior software. The default style of the site is light colored, but i temporarily added a darker colored style, to change you can find a link at the bottom of the site.

Helmet laws

Two things.....one - I can't imagine riding a Spyder without a helmet, too much wind in my eyes and face - I have ridden for 25 years and never without a helmet and I live in Illinois, two- having worked for the Emergency Traffic Patrol Division for a while as part of the Illinois DOT, we have a saying about motorcyclists involved in accidents without helmets - "ORGAN DONORS" This has been my opinion, and I approved it!
 
Nice point but...

There are a lot of US servicemen & women fighting and dying around the world today securing your right to an opinion -- thanks for sharing it! Here's mine...

Those same servicemen & women are dying because a segment of the world's population believes there is NO REASON not to believe Allah is the only true God, and EVERYONE should live their lives by the dictates of the Koran. This segment of the world's population believes this so strongly they are willing to KILL you if you don't come around to their way of thinking. I'll as you a question, can intolerance be taken too far?

Here's a short quote for you:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Somehow, we have forgotten where our country came from. A large segment of the original settlers came here to escape religious persecution -- which is another way of saying they were tired of people telling them how to live their lives.

This nation was founded on the principles of individual rights and responsibilities. Somehow, we have become a nation where we expect the government to take care of us if something bad happens. If we make a mistake and take out a loan for more than we can afford, no need to worry, Uncle Sam is gonna be there to bail us out...

We have allowed laws to be written in this country that say everyone (who makes money) is responsible for everyone else's medical costs. Instead of recognizing the folly of such a position -- that "society" should be responsible for an individual's stupidity -- and striking down such a silly law, we compound the problem by writing other laws that dictate behavior and choices. In other words, we justify laws dictating behavior and choice based on the ridiculous notion that I (as a member of society) should be responsible for medical costs when someone else chooses to act irresponsibly.

Here' s a news flash: riding a motorcycle is DANGEROUS, even more dangerous than driving a car. If you can't afford to pay the enormous medical costs of injuries resulting from a motorcycle crash, or if you have family responsibilities you won't be able to meet if you are permanently injured in a motorcycle crash, then you probably shouldn't ride one. Or you should ride one without a helmet, because if you crash you'll be dead and you won't care what happens anyway...

Either way, it should be each individual's personal choice to make, as well as their personal responsibility to accept the consequences should the worst happen.

Regards,

Mark

I come from a military family so thank you for your take on things. As a healthcare provider, the burden shouldn't be on everyone else to pick up the remains of an idiot who doesn't want to wear a helmet and return them to their family. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion...this makes our country great, but if California is going to ban hydrogenated oil, then certainly we should all be wearing helmets! We have many laws in place to protect us as sometimes we're not bright enough to protect ourselves...

As far as you going off on Islam, Allah, and the rest, I'm still a little lost, to be honest...but, hey, it's all good discussion!
 
:agree:
It is your right to have your opinion and I will fight for you to have that right. but it is still america and it should be our choice to choose and not forced to wear them. I was not tell people they should or shouldnt wear them I was just asking if it was possable to have a link on here for the laws. I know alot of people spend a lot of time on here planing trips and talking about trips they are going to take so why not have all the information about the places they might want to go. A little back ground about myself I was a firefighter for 10 years in two different states one with helmet laws and one without so I have seen both sides of this and still beleave it should be a personal choice.
 
What amazes me is the never ending right to choose argument

:b2b:Does anyone really think we all ought to be able to choose which laws we want to abide by?

The funny part is that all those who continually claim they want the right to make decisions would be the first ones to scream foul if say their home were invaded and they were robbed, or if someone in their family were murdered, or raped even.

Laws, it's a terrible thing having to live in a civilized world and having to abide by laws. Life was much more interesting prior to civilization and laws.

Laws are in place because there are those who choose not to be responsible, it would be wonderful if we all could get along just all honest and trusting like but we all know that isn't even rational thinking,

And I know there are those who don't want to hear it but Helmets do save lives,

There was a couple people killed here where I live just last week, they were wearing helmets or so the local paper claimed, however they were wearing novelty helmets, I wonder if we were able to ask them their thoughts now, what their choice would be if they knew that had they been wearing a DOT helmet they would still be around today.

I have always been a believer that helmets save lives, I am even more so convinced after having had my first crash several years ago, approx 250 miles from nowhere in the middle of BC Canada heading to Alaska, I went down at 70mph, I tumbled down the road several times over and over. When I came to a stop my riding suit was a shambles and my helmet was ground down on several sides where my head had scraped along the pavement. Saved my life I have no doubt. Walked away with a few scratches and was back riding towards AK that very evening after being released from a clinic. A miracle to say the least , but also a smart choice in choosing to wear the proper gear.

Don't buy into it? no problem. I always say, it helps to clean out the gene pool. I won't miss you to be sure, thats not the issue, it just makes it bad on the rest of us having to deal with all the reports of how dangerous and deadly Motorcycling is, a smart person takes measures to reduce the risk, if you like the greater risk, I have no issue with it, I just don't want to be hit with paying for all the idiots who choose to die by riding stupid, If only they would take responsibility for their right to choose I'd be happy.
 
There are a lot of US servicemen & women fighting and dying around the world today securing your right to an opinion -- thanks for sharing it! Here's mine...

Those same servicemen & women are dying because a segment of the world's population believes there is NO REASON not to believe Allah is the only true God, and EVERYONE should live their lives by the dictates of the Koran. This segment of the world's population believes this so strongly they are willing to KILL you if you don't come around to their way of thinking. I'll as you a question, can intolerance be taken too far?

Here's a short quote for you:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Somehow, we have forgotten where our country came from. A large segment of the original settlers came here to escape religious persecution -- which is another way of saying they were tired of people telling them how to live their lives.

This nation was founded on the principles of individual rights and responsibilities. Somehow, we have become a nation where we expect the government to take care of us if something bad happens. If we make a mistake and take out a loan for more than we can afford, no need to worry, Uncle Sam is gonna be there to bail us out...

We have allowed laws to be written in this country that say everyone (who makes money) is responsible for everyone else's medical costs. Instead of recognizing the folly of such a position -- that "society" should be responsible for an individual's stupidity -- and striking down such a silly law, we compound the problem by writing other laws that dictate behavior and choices. In other words, we justify laws dictating behavior and choice based on the ridiculous notion that I (as a member of society) should be responsible for medical costs when someone else chooses to act irresponsibly.

Here' s a news flash: riding a motorcycle is DANGEROUS, even more dangerous than driving a car. If you can't afford to pay the enormous medical costs of injuries resulting from a motorcycle crash, or if you have family responsibilities you won't be able to meet if you are permanently injured in a motorcycle crash, then you probably shouldn't ride one. Or you should ride one without a helmet, because if you crash you'll be dead and you won't care what happens anyway...

Either way, it should be each individual's personal choice to make, as well as their personal responsibility to accept the consequences should the worst happen.

Regards,

Mark

Ill respond when Im sober:2thumbs:
 
So you are saying that you are ALLOWED to wear a helmet in ANY State! Excellent, I thought I would have to go around the stateds that do not allow helmets (Whewww!).

FYI - You can wear a helmet in ANY Province as well up here in Canada

Just a quick addition - In Canada we never get caught (directly) with healthcare bills. The Province pays for healthcare. It is a right that we fought for and sacrificed many a soldier's life. We fought for the democracy and have it. We voted for our government to make sensible choices for (we) the people. Wearing a helmet keeps our taxes down to less than if we didn't have to wear them. I voted for them so that they can make some good choices for ME. It is not compulsory to ride a motorcycle, if you don't want to wear a helmet you are still allowed to drive a car, just not a motorcycle.
 
Last edited:
lol all the guy wanted was to post a map of states that do and do not required helmets to be worn and almost every single reply was somone elses opinion on why or why one should or shouldnt wear a helmet think we missed the point of the orginal ? i dont think he ment for it to get into a helmut debate :) just my two cents
 
so then let whomever needs the info figure it out

actually for those it is of great importance to, not wearing one that is, they already know where it is legal to go without so posting the info here isn't necessary.

What I think comical is here in Tennessee, last year the rights activists fought for and won the right to go without helmets in parades and funerals, Just a tactic to whittle away at the law until there is none to chip away at

but the best part is that toy runs are considered parades,

and we have several toy runs every year for the needy, and for at least two days prior to the rides Real Bikers camp out at the town fairgrounds drinking beer for the $30.00 entrance fee. After consuming beer and partying for a couple days non stop, they all get in a group and ride thru town without helmets.

Now certainly you would all agree, that's a superior intelect, for sure, who make those choices. How could anyone dispute those brilliant choices?:yes:
 
I didn't realize certain religions had Helmet Laws

WOW, just goes to show you that something can be learned every day, I wasn't aware that it was in some religious doctrine that a person had to wear a helmet or they would be executed, Now that's a Law.:clap:
 
BTW- I love the way "superior intelect" is spelled.....LOL



hahaha-024.gif


First rule when writing a post critical of someone's IQ, be sure you verify spelling and grammar. Otherwise, your credibility takes a hit. :D
 
Give me liberty, or give me... a helmet?

Laws are in place because there are those who choose not to be responsible...

And here we see the fruit of long years of a "nanny state." Our government has managed to convince (many of) us we need protection from ourselves...

Should we enact laws to prevent irresponsibility if the result of that irresponsibility affects only us personally? Where does the idea of laws to govern behavior come from? Many experts agree our system of western law comes from the Bible, and while I don't consider myself a religious person, I've realized a lifetime of relative harmony in dealing with other people abiding by the so-called golden rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The additional guidance found in the Ten Commandments (those restricting personal behavior as it affects others) also provides a wonderful roadmap for blissful coexistence with our fellow man. Throw into the mix people's strong desire for personal freedom and liberty and you get such documents as the Magna Carta and the US Constitution including it's addendum, the Bill of Rights.

I encourage you to think critically about these ideas, precepts and documents which form the basis for developing societal law. Show me, if you can, the part where it says a government's role should be to make laws to protect me from acting irresponsibly in a way that impacts no one other than myself. Please tell me how not wearning a helmet presents a danger to anyone other than myself.

Because we live in a free society, people are free to act in any number of strange and ridiculous ways. People smoke, drink alcohol to excess, over-eat, have unprotected sex with strangers, skydive, scuba dive, cross the street without looking both ways, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Yet my government has written no laws to prevent me from killing (or permanently injuring) myself engaging in such follies -- this despite the fact that healthcare costs associated with these activities far, far exceed those associated with unhelmeted riders. Why do we demand laws to prevent irresponsibility in one area but not another?

Statements such as "...there is NO REASON anyone should ride a motorcycle without a helmet..." allow advocates of such laws to believe they argue from the heights of intellect. People who don't wear helmets are ignorant, uninsured, dirty, law-breaking bikers who need to be put in their place! And while we sit in righteous superiority after enacting a law protecting dumb bikers from themselves, we are completely oblivious to the fact we've chipped one more stone off the wall founded in the Magna Carta, the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights that protects our personal freedoms and liberties from excessive (which eventually becomes abusive) government power.

Let's talk about healthcare costs for a moment...

The basic argument is helmetless riders injured in an accident place the burden of their healthcare costs on society -- the so-called Social Cost theory. Let's examine that for a moment.

The medical costs associated with motorcycle accidents are but a tiny, tiny fraction of the total we spend in this country on healthcare. The results of studies are all over the map, but some (click here to read one) suggest that costs of injuries for non-helmeted riders are on average 60% higher than those for helmeted riders. Statistics vary widely across the board, but the studies I've found show that in states without helmet laws, around half of riders still use them. So let's do some math.

Let's say the total healthcare costs for motorcycle-related injuries is $10 million (a nice round number, completely arbitrary of course, making for easy math). Let's further assume half those involved wore a helmet, half did not. Continuing, let's assume the costs for the helmetless half were 50 percent higher (slightly lower than those quoted in the study, but much easier to compute). That would mean costs for helmeted riders would be some $4 million, while costs for the ignorant, helmetless riders -- at 50 percent higher -- would be some $6 million. Consequently, unhelmeted riders' medicals costs are $2 million higher; if everyone wore a helmet total costs would be $8 million ($10 million minus the $2 million savings from wearing helmets). In this scenario, helmetless riders increased the total healthcare cost associated with motorcycle injuries by 25 percent.

$4 million (helmeted rider medical costs)
$6 million (helmetless rider medical costs -- 50% higher than $4 million) +
= $10 million total

2/8 = 25 percent

But in reality, only the uninsured motorcyclists would place the cost burden on the government. So, continuing with our hypothetical, although uninsured motorist rates vary widely from state to state, according to this article from last year in Insurance Journal, the national average hovers around 15 percent. 15 percent of $2 million is $300,000 -- or .03 percent of the original $10 million.

So if I did my math correctly, here's the bottom line: Of the total we spend on healthcare in the US, motorcycle injuries account for about one tenth of one percent. By enacting a helmet law we save .03 percent of .1 percent, or 0.003 percent.

I'll ask the American riders here on the forum: Is that .003 percent savings worth the loss of personal freedom and liberty?

What about the continued societal cost of survival? Let's face it folks, we all die eventually. But those of us who survive into old age place a continuing financial burden on society. How much higher is that burden with helmet laws resulting in more riders surviving to old age?

In our country there has always been a line between government and personal affairs. Government intrusion into personal affairs has almost always been confined to situations where a person's action (or inaction) places another person or another person's property in jeopardy (there's that do unto others thing again). In 1966 our government took its first step over that line when it threatened to withhold federal funds from states without seatbelt laws. And it made perfect sense; who would be crazy enough to argue against wearing a seatbelt? After all, people who don't wear seatbelts place a higher cost on society when they are injured in a motor vehicle accident -- why should we continue to pay that higher cost when we can simply mandate seatbelt use? What was somehow lost in the debate, however, is the fact by making it a law to wear a seatbelt we lost a personal freedom. With that victory, your goverment gave itself the right to intrude in your personal affairs on the basis of "social cost" and "safety."

The depth and breadth of government intrusion into personal affairs continues to grow, year by year, in every facet of our lives; healthcare, public services, public education, you name it. How about the latest effort at social engineering when your government, under the Clinton administration, forced lending institutions to make mortage loans more readily available to low-income families -- even if they weren't responsible enough to save for a down payment. The end result is a $700 billion butcher bill (if you think that's all it's gonna cost I've got some nice ocean-front property for you in Arizona) for those of us who play by the traditional rules, make educated decisions and pay our bills on time, not to mention global markets in crisis seeing a nearly 40 percent reduction in wealth across the board. Who here thinks our government's attempt to "help" in this arena actually helped?

One of the reasons free societies come together is to share certain risks and costs, such as the cost of growing old, the cost of natural disaster, the cost of accidental injury, etc. We call it security. By sharing costs and risks, individual members are free to make personal decisions regarding their own welfare absent the tyranny of governement or nature.

With that step over the line into curtailing personal liberty in the name of "social cost," however, our government successfully argued we should not SHARE the risks inherent in a free society, we should instead ELIMINATE them. But in its argument, however, our government failed to mention (and we didn't notice) that along with the elimination of risk comes the elimination of basic freedoms and liberties -- chief among them, the right to choose.

Many years ago, a very wise man named Benjamin Franklin warned, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

We better decide soon if we, as a society, want to share risks, or cheaply sell our freedom and liberty to the false notion of "safety."

Regards,

Mark
 
Last edited:
And here we see the fruit of long years of a "nanny state." Our government has managed to convince (many of) us we need protection from ourselves...

Should we enact laws to prevent irresponsibility if the result of that irresponsibility affects only us personally? Where does the idea of laws to govern behavior come from? Many experts agree our system of western law comes from the Bible, and while I don't consider myself a religious person, I've realized a lifetime of relative harmony in dealing with other people abiding by the so-called golden rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The additional guidance found in the Ten Commandments (those restricting personal behavior as it affects others) also provides a wonderful roadmap for blissful coexistence with our fellow man. Throw into the mix people's strong desire for personal freedom and liberty and you get such documents as the Magna Carta and the US Constitution including it's addendum, the Bill of Rights.

I encourage you to think critically about these ideas, precepts and documents which form the basis for developing societal law. Show me, if you can, the part where it says a government's role should be to make laws to protect me from acting irresponsibly in a way that impacts no one other than myself. Please tell me how not wearning a helmet presents a danger to anyone other than myself.

Because we live in a free society, people are free to act in any number of strange and ridiculous ways. People smoke, drink alcohol to excess, over-eat, have unprotected sex with strangers, skydive, scuba dive, cross the street without looking both ways, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Yet my government has written no laws to prevent me from killing (or permanently injuring) myself engaging in such follies -- this despite the fact that healthcare costs associated with these activities far, far exceed those associated with unhelmeted riders. Why do we demand laws to prevent irresponsibility in one area but not another?

Statements such as "...there is NO REASON anyone should ride a motorcycle without a helmet..." allow advocates of such laws to believe they argue from the heights of intellect. People who don't wear helmets are ignorant, uninsured, dirty, law-breaking bikers who need to be put in their place! And while we sit in righteous superiority after enacting a law protecting dumb bikers from themselves, we are completely oblivious to the fact we've chipped one more stone off the wall founded in the Magna Carta, the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights that protects our personal freedoms and liberties from excessive (which eventually becomes abusive) government power.

Let's talk about healthcare costs for a moment...

The basic argument is by not wearing a helmet I place the burden of my healthcare costs on society -- the so-called Social Cost theory. Let's examine that for a moment.

The costs associated with motorcycle accidents is but a tiny, tiny fraction of the total we spend in this country on healthcare. The results of studies are all over the map, but some (click here to read one) suggest that costs of injuries for non-helmeted riders are on average 60% higher than those for non-helmeted riders. Statistics vary widely across the board, but the studies I've found show that in states without helmet laws, around half of riders still use them. So let's do some math.

Let's say the total healthcare costs for motorcycle-related injuries is $10 million (a nice round number, completely arbitrary of course, making for easy math). Let's further assume half those involved wore a helmet, half did not. Continuing, let's assume the costs for the helmetless half were 50 percent higher. That would mean costs for helmeted riders would be some $4 million, while costs for the ignorant, helmetless riders would be some $6 million. That means unhelmeted riders cost $2 million more, and if everyone wore a helmet, costs would be $8. So, unhelmeted riders increase the total healthcare costs associated with motorcycle injuries by 25 percent (two is 25 percent of eight).

But in reality, only the uninsured motorcyclists would place the cost burden on the government. So, continuing with our hypothetical, although uninsured motorist rates vary widely from state to state, according to this article from last year in Insurance Journal, the national average hovers around 15 percent. 15 percent of $2 million is $300,000 -- or .03 percent of the original $10 million.

So if I did my math correctly, here's the bottom line: Of the total we spend on healthcare in the US, motorcycle injuries account for about one tenth of one percent. We can save .03 percent of .1 percent by enacting a helmet law, or 0.003 percent.

I'll ask the American riders here on the forum: Is that .003 percent savings worth the loss of personal freedom and liberty?

What about the continued societal cost of survival? Let's face it folks, we all die eventually. But those of us who survive into old age place a continuing financial burden on society. How much higher is that cost with helmet laws allowing more riders to live into old age?

In our country there has always been a line between government and personal affairs. Government intrusion into personal affairs has almost always been confined to situations where a person's action (or inaction) places another person or another person's property in jeopardy (there's that do unto others thing again). In 1966 our government took its first step over that line when it threatened to withhold federal funds from states without seatbelt laws. And it made perfect sense, who would be crazy enough to argue against wearing a seatbelt? After all, people who don't wear seatbelts place a higher cost on society when they are injured in a motor vehicle accident -- why should we continue to pay that higher cost when we can simply mandate seatbelt use? What was somehow lost in the debate, however, is the fact by making it a law to wear a seatbelt we lost a personal freedom. And the distance our government intrudes into personal affairs continues to grow, year by year...

One of the reasons free societies come together is to share certain risks and costs such as the cost of growing old, the cost of natural disaster, the cost of accidental injury, etc. We call it security. By sharing costs and risks, individual members are free to make personal decisions regarding their own welfare absent the tyranny of governement or nature.

With that step over the line into curtailing personal liberty in the name of "social cost," however, our government successfully argued we should not SHARE the risks inherent in a free society, we should instead ELIMINATE them. But in its argument, however, our government failed to mention (and we didn't notice) that along with the elimination of risk comes the elimination of basic freedoms and liberties -- chief among them, the right to choose.

Many years ago, a very wise man named Benjamin Franklin warned, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

We better decide soon if we, as a society, want to share risks, or cheaply sell our freedom and liberty to the false notion of "safety."

Regards,

Mark


I hated to use up so much band width to "quote" your opinion Mark, but as usual I agree with you 100%. You just said it a lot better than I could !

Richard
 
:b2b:Does anyone really think we all ought to be able to choose which laws we want to abide by?

The funny part is that all those who continually claim they want the right to make decisions would be the first ones to scream foul if say their home were invaded and they were robbed, or if someone in their family were murdered, or raped even.

Laws, it's a terrible thing having to live in a civilized world and having to abide by laws. Life was much more interesting prior to civilization and laws.

Laws are in place because there are those who choose not to be responsible, it would be wonderful if we all could get along just all honest and trusting like but we all know that isn't even rational thinking,

And I know there are those who don't want to hear it but Helmets do save lives


No one is saying anything about choosing to obey the laws we want and disobey those that we don't like. NO law is broken by riders who personally choose NOT to wear helmets in states without a helmet law !! It never ceases to amaze me how many people must speed read through topics, miss the whole point, and then come to the wrong conclusion.

Florida deesn't have a mandatory helmet law and from my personal observation at least 1/2 of the bike riders choose not to wear a helmet. (My friends put the number of unhelmeted riders even higher) No laws are being broken by not wearing a helmet. As adults they are free to take responsibility for their own actions.

Richard
 
thank you spyderdogg that is all I wanted, to give people some information on what the laws were where they might be traveling to not cause a debate on what people think one should or should not do.

I also would like to thank spydermark for the great words and research he did. you said it better then I ever could have.
 
Back
Top