I'm with PMK on your headlights on problem with key on...Someone with a schematic may be able to identify the controller that turns the headlights on after the bike is started and go from there...I'm thinking that controller or relay may have the contacts stuck together???? JUST A GUESS...My Spyder is flashed and the engine needs to be running for the headlights to come on...Keep us updated when you find the fix...larryd
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Headlights, keyed. Why?
- Thread starter Revalden
- Start date
I would really appreciate if everyone is who able, to go out and turn your Key to the - ON position. …. Do NOT start the engine …. and report back what lights go on. ….. Thanks ,..... as I stated above - if my engine is not running my headlights are OFF ..… Mikehyea:
Just front fender lights and bothbackup and taillights, when i truned the key to the first position. 2013 RT Limited
Dave
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
If it was a stuck relay the lights would be on all the time. The power side of the headlights pass through the hi and lo headlamp relay contacts and is not keyed. The ground side of the lights is direct to ground. The power through the main headlight relay contact goes only to the power side of the coils of the hi and lo headlight relays. The ground side of the hi and lo relay coils go to the ECM. I really think the ECM is modified, either by flashing or internal failure. Why else would the lights come on with the key and turn off 20 seconds after the key is turned off? The ECM has a full time power source so it can keep the ground side of the headlight relays connected after the key is turned off.
I believe Revalden when he says the lights come on when the key is turned on and the motor has not yet been started. And as we have all said, that is not normal.
Also, there is no way he could crank the engine if in fact the battery voltage drops below 10.5 unless the ECM has been flashed, or has an internal failure.
Revalden, back to one of your original questions about the load shedding relay. That relay controls power to the hand grips and suspension compressor. The ground side of the relay coil goes to the cluster so the relay does not activate until the bike is running. The load shedding relay and headlight relays are not connected in any manner.
SpyderCruiser
New member
I would have to look at the schematic again, been a while. But I thought the headlights are also powered by the load shedding relay and another relay, so 2 relays for the headlights to work. So 1 could be stuck but would go off with the load shedding relay.
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
Nope. I thought so too until I looked closely. The headlights have three relays, the main one with two outputs and its coil ground goes to the hi-low handlebar switch. Energized it directs the power to the high beam relay contact, and deenergized it directs power to the low beam relay contact. There is a jumper around to keep the low beam relay energized all the time to keep the headlight lit. This for US/Canada models only. Remember, US/Canada models have one headlight bulb only. High beam activates the shutter. The ground side of the high and low beam relays go to the ECM through which the circuit to ground is completed. The power side of all three relays is connected directly to battery power through the fuse box.
The load shedding relay has its ground side connected to the ECM through a pin different from the headlights. I haven't checked but the grip heaters and suspension compressor may shut off as soon as the ignition is turned off. That is why the suspension doesn't operate unless the engine is running.
Revalden
New member
I have a "Battery Monitor" hooked between the Positive and Negative terminals. It sends info Bluetoothily to an AP on my phone and is always running in the background. It recorded 8.37 cranking volts, and engine does start but begrudgingly. Could starter be going out? I replaced the battery that was in Spydie when I bought it because of these low readings. I think I'll remove the Battery Monitor and see if the hard starting continues. And while I'm in there I'll add those star washers everyone extolls, even though the wire to terminal joints have been TIGHT.
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
I don't know of any reports of starters going out. At this point I'm skeptical of your battery monitor. Response time may also be a factor. Hook another voltmeter to the battery to check cranking voltage. Open the throttle all the way and hold it while pushing the starter button. That will allow cranking the engine without firing. It's called something like clearing a flooded engine. That will give you a good read on the voltage drop while cranking. Has your cluster screen gone wonky while you're starting? That will happen if the voltage drops below 10.5. I just can't believe your engine will crank if the voltage truly is dropping below 10.5 unless something has been changed in the ECM or cluster.
I've never replaced a relay so can't say for sure if you can get them at an auto parts store, but I'm guessing you can. Schematics of relays are usually printed on the relay itself. The high and low beam relays are normally open, i.e., have to be energized to close. The main relay is a 3-way so one set of contacts is closed when energized and the other when not. But you probably know all this so don't be insulted by the explanation. I just want to make sure you know!
The terminals should be identified and relays pretty much adhere to a standard ID scheme which you find on the 'net.
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IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
Here's another test you can try.
First, the ground side of the starter solenoid coil goes to the ECM. There's jumper circuit with a diode from the hot side to the ground side of the starter solenoid coil. When the engine starts the ECM raises the ground circuit to full voltage thus causing the solenoid coil to no longer have a voltage differential and drops out. The power side of that coil is fed through the contacts of the pre-start relay. The pre-start relay coil ground goes through the starter button to ground.
Once the engine is running pushing the starter button will actuate the pre-start relay only. The starter solenoid coil won't energize because both sides are at the same voltage. So try this. Start the engine and then push the starter button. See if you can hear the starter solenoid kick in and cause the starter to turn. If it does, then there's a problem in the ECM because that indicates the ground side of the solenoid is staying at ground, which it shouldn't.
I'm guessing that the ground circuit for the starter solenoid inside the ECM will be open when the battery voltage drops below 10.5. When I've had my battery drop down to that level the starter button produces only silence.
I'm still of the opinion you have a flashed or defective ECM, or flashed into a defective condition.
First, the ground side of the starter solenoid coil goes to the ECM. There's jumper circuit with a diode from the hot side to the ground side of the starter solenoid coil. When the engine starts the ECM raises the ground circuit to full voltage thus causing the solenoid coil to no longer have a voltage differential and drops out. The power side of that coil is fed through the contacts of the pre-start relay. The pre-start relay coil ground goes through the starter button to ground.
Once the engine is running pushing the starter button will actuate the pre-start relay only. The starter solenoid coil won't energize because both sides are at the same voltage. So try this. Start the engine and then push the starter button. See if you can hear the starter solenoid kick in and cause the starter to turn. If it does, then there's a problem in the ECM because that indicates the ground side of the solenoid is staying at ground, which it shouldn't.
I'm guessing that the ground circuit for the starter solenoid inside the ECM will be open when the battery voltage drops below 10.5. When I've had my battery drop down to that level the starter button produces only silence.
I'm still of the opinion you have a flashed or defective ECM, or flashed into a defective condition.
JoshHefnerX
New member
You said you have LED lights all over this thing? Are they aftermarket lights? If so, I'm wondering if they were wired in, in such a way as they're feeding the headlights...
LifeLongRider
New member
I would really appreciate if everyone is who able, to go out and turn your Key to the - ON position. …. Do NOT start the engine …. and report back what lights go on. ….. Thanks ,..... as I stated above - if my engine is not running my headlights are OFF ..… Mike
Ditto . . my headlights come on only after the engine is started.
KX5062
Active member
I don't think this applies to motorcycles with a hazard light switch and the ability to display a hazard flash function.
On my old 2014 RT the headlights did not come on until it started and only stayed on for about 30 seconds after stopping, and the same goes for my new 2020 RTL.
Revalden
New member
Hi guys, I haven't had time to go out and try your suggestions yet. I had to take "Management" to doctor for her knee surgery follow up appt. I've running up and down the stairs fetching things for her a lot, my legs are getting a workout. But I hope to get out there tomorrow b'cuz our club has a ride scheduled for this coming Saturday :2thumbs:. I'll let ya'll know what I turn up. Thanks again for all your help. Rev.
Bike-O-Din
New member
2011 RT-S Lights DO come on when the key is turned to the ON position regardless of engine running. They will stay on as far as I know for the whole time the key is in the on position. Yes, there is a delay after shutdown before they turn off.
IdahoMtnSpyder
Active member
You sure about the headlights? The owner's manual clearly states the headlights automatically turn on when the engine reaches 800 rpm.
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