Going Solar

[Spyderjockey]

Have any of these solar suppliers told you the panels lose efficiency every year and have to be kept clean regularly? I have seen some off the grid homes done but they are pretty fugly and panels are everywhere. In 20yrs they will need to be replaced. Panels are getting more efficient but not there yet. Just the opinion of an electrical engineer who teaches about these at our local Tech College.:dontknow: The solar industry (home type) needs more regulation and disclosure. Be sure to ask about what I just told you before you shell out some big $$$ for a system that will gradually degrade. Make sure you know what type you are getting some are better (and more $$$) than others. Remember most states also have rebates or tax credits to get it done and the feds used to also not sure if it is going away. Just over the horizon are solar shingles that is when I am going to get serious if I live that long and prices come down.
http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/

http://www.dowpowerhouse.com/

http://www.hgtv.com/video/solar-energy-shingles-video/index.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=sol...dOMq2yASqm4DQAQ&ved=0CCwQsAQ&biw=1577&bih=813

Yes I know that as the system ages it does degrade. I have a written guarantee about the yearly production amounts of electricity that is produced: Here is the the guarantee:

Energy Production Guarantee. Sungevity guarantees during the Lease Term that the System will
generate the guaranteed annual kilowatt-hours ("kWh") ("Guaranteed Annual kWh") of energy set
forth in Exhibit B, as follows:
i. Production Year Deficit. If at the end of each successive twelve (12) month anniversary of
your first monthly payment (a "Production Year") the Actual Annual kWh (defined below)
generated by the System is less than the Guaranteed Annual kWh, then we will send
you a refund equal to the difference between that Production Year's Actual Annual kWh
and Guaranteed Annual kWh (minus any previous year's surpluses), multiplied by that
Production Year's Guaranteed Energy Price per kWh (defined below). We will make that
payment within thirty (30) days of the end of the calendar year in which the Production
Year Deficit occurred.

Here is the guaranteed production values for each year for the 20 year lease. At the end of the lease the guaranteed production will degrade by about 10%.:

The graph would not load the way it is shown on my contract so I added the different colored explanation of the columns.



Table of Guaranteed Annual kWh
PRODUCTION YEAR GUARANTEED ENERGY PRICE PER KWH ESTIMATED ANNUAL KWH GUARANTEED ANNUAL KWH

The first column is the Production Year--2nd column is GUARANTEED ENERGY PRICE PER KWH--3rd column is ESTIMATED ANNUAL KWH--4th column is GUARANTEED ANNUAL KWH

1 $ 0.1234 14585 13856
2 $ 0.1278 14512 13786
3 $ 0.1323 14440 13718
4 $ 0.1369 14367 13649
5 $ 0.1417 14295 13580
6 $ 0.1467 14224 13513
7 $ 0.1519 14153 13445
8 $ 0.1572 14082 13378
9 $ 0.1628 14012 13311
10 $ 0.1685 13942 13245
11 $ 0.1744 13872 13178
12 $ 0.1805 13803 13113
13 $ 0.1869 13734 13047
14 $ 0.1935 13665 12982
15 $ 0.2003 13597 12917
16 $ 0.2073 13529 12853
17 $ 0.2146 13461 12788
18 $ 0.2222 13394 12724
19 $ 0.2300 13327 12661
20 $ 0.2381 13260 12597

Also as I have stated before, there are no up front costs to me. When the system is up and running I just start paying the lease payment. The system will be operable by the end of tomorrow, but then I have to wait for the power company to do their inspection which is usually 2 to 4 weeks from the day the system become operable.


Another point people seem to be missing is that all maintenance is done by Sungevity including replacing the inverters when they need replacing, which is included in the lease agreement.

 

[Magdave]

Yes I know that as the system ages it does degrade.
Another point people seem to be missing is that all maintenance is done by Sungevity including replacing the inverters when they need replacing, which is included in the lease agreement.

We can't miss a point we can't read in the lease. Don't be mistaken YOU are paying for the maintenance and replacements. It all sounds OK with a touch of snake oil on the 10% over 20yr loss claim. A lot of variables involved in how long and well a panel works. Are they going to come and clean it too? Imagine a car sitting in the driveway for months or years what would it look like? I find the claims for generation a little high for your part of the country too. What is the average sunlight days number for your location? Unless all panels are pointed south there will be a big difference seasonally the farther north you go. Even if southern pointed it will still lose a lot in the fall and winter. Don't get me wrong I am all for green energy but signing a 20yr lease makes me a little leery considering the longevity of most solar companies in this still developing market. Good Luck with it hope it is all you hope for.:thumbup:

 

[wyliec]

Don't get me wrong I am all for green energy but signing a 20yr lease makes me a little leery considering the longevity of most solar companies in this still developing market. Good Luck with it hope it is all you hope for.:thumbup:

I started hearing about residential solar panels back in 1969. I would think by this point in time they would be pretty much developed, with only tweaks for better materials. I actually thought they hit their peak and were on a downslide now, regarding sales.

 

[Cavman]

I was talking to a buddy about solar. He mentioned that you should not tie it into your solar power system so that it is connected to what comes into your house from the power company. The power companies have it that if the grid goes down, it will take your solar system down also. Then you will be without power also. Make sense to me.

 

[Magdave]

I started hearing about residential solar panels back in 1969. I would think by this point in time they would be pretty much developed, with only tweaks for better materials. I actually thought they hit their peak and were on a downslide now, regarding sales.

It wasn't till post 2000 did the panel's cost and efficiency get to a viable point for consumers. Not sure on the sales end but when peak oil really starts to ramp down solar and wind sales will pick back up...permanently. Question is who in the industry will be there over the next 20yrs?

 

[jcthorne]

I like the terms presented in the lease arrangement. My only concern would be what if Sungevity ceases to exist? Who owns the panels, who maintains them and what obligation do you have to make lease payments irregardless of performance of Sungevity or the panels? It is interesting to note that the performance warranty is worded as a refund less extra power generated in months prior. Over time, that banks quite a bit to draw down from before there will be any refund. Also obligates you to make lease payments irregardless of the performance of the system and requires you to seek refunds after the fact.

It all sounds great now, its what happens 10yrs from now when Sungevity is no longer making money hand over fist with new installs and the outlay becomes larger than the income. Who actually holds the lease contract etc.

One thing to sign a long term lease with a company that has been around longer than you have been alive, but quite another when they have only been around for a few years in a new industry.

Once they make all they can, bankruptcy does not hurt them. You miss one lease payment to the then owner of the contract and you credit rating takes the hit forever.....It all seems pretty one sided to me, much like cell phone contracts.

 

[Magdave]

I was talking to a buddy about solar. He mentioned that you should not tie it into your solar power system so that it is connected to what comes into your house from the power company. The power companies have it that if the grid goes down, it will take your solar system down also. Then you will be without power also. Make sense to me.

Most systems have a disconnect so that can't happen. Of course a grid surge could, in theory, take out the inverters in the right circumstances.

 

[Magdave]

A good video to view

 

[Spyderjockey]

I was talking to a buddy about solar. He mentioned that you should not tie it into your solar power system so that it is connected to what comes into your house from the power company. The power companies have it that if the grid goes down, it will take your solar system down also. Then you will be without power also. Make sense to me.

I don't have batteries on the system, so if the power goes off I don't have power any way. It is the law that says solar can't be pumping power back into the grid if the power is off, for safety reasons.

 

[Spyderjockey]

We can't miss a point we can't read in the lease. Don't be mistaken YOU are paying for the maintenance and replacements. It all sounds OK with a touch of snake oil on the 10% over 20yr loss claim. A lot of variables involved in how long and well a panel works. Are they going to come and clean it too? Imagine a car sitting in the driveway for months or years what would it look like? I find the claims for generation a little high for your part of the country too. What is the average sunlight days number for your location? Unless all panels are pointed south there will be a big difference seasonally the farther north you go. Even if southern pointed it will still lose a lot in the fall and winter. Don't get me wrong I am all for green energy but signing a 20yr lease makes me a little leery considering the longevity of most solar companies in this still developing market. Good Luck with it hope it is all you hope for.:thumbup:

I'm getting a little tired of all the negative comments from you and a couple of others on here.......you make it sound like I'm a sucker and don't have a clue about what's really happening. Some of the comments you guys are making shows me you only have bits and pieces of incomplete information, but you talk like you are experts and know all there is to know about solar energy. I guess you think I'm a complete a$$ or just plain stupid and did no research at all on the subject. Well I am looking forward to the best, even though I can tell some of you are hoping for the worst. Typical human nature, I guess!!

 

[Magdave]

Not sure about your storms but if I had it I would be investing in some deep cycle batteries just in case. We have plenty of outages here near the coast. :thumbup:

 

[Magdave]

I'm getting a little tired of all the negative comments from you and a couple of others on here.......you make it sound like I'm a sucker and don't have a clue about what's really happening. Some of the comments you guys are making shows me you only have bits and pieces of incomplete information, but you talk like you are experts and know all there is to know about solar energy. I guess you think I'm a complete a$$ or just plain stupid and did no research at all on the subject. Well I am looking forward to the best, even though I can tell some of you are hoping for the worst. Typical human nature, I guess!!

Woah:shocked: Just trying to add some info and help out I see you do not appreciate it. I told you I teach this stuff but I guess that doesn't matter. As I said it sounds good and good luck personally with all the rebates and tax credits if I were going that route I would invest $20k and be done with it. That is just me. I doubt I will live 20 more years but my wife is 11yrs younger will.

 

[jcthorne]

I'm getting a little tired of all the negative comments from you and a couple of others on here.......you make it sound like I'm a sucker and don't have a clue about what's really happening. Some of the comments you guys are making shows me you only have bits and pieces of incomplete information, but you talk like you are experts and know all there is to know about solar energy. I guess you think I'm a complete a$$ or just plain stupid and did no research at all on the subject. Well I am looking forward to the best, even though I can tell some of you are hoping for the worst. Typical human nature, I guess!!

I am sorry if you took my comments that way. Was not intended. You posted in an open discussion forum and I thought you were inviting open discussion on the subject, a nice diversion from Spyder heat problems and tires I might add.

 

[Magdave]

I am sorry if you took my comments that way. Was not intended. You posted in an open discussion forum and I thought you were inviting open discussion on the subject, a nice diversion from Spyder heat problems and tires I might add.

:agree:

 

[Spyderjockey]

Some of these comments took me back 6 years ago when I bought my Spyder. I was told "those things are just a toy and will never last very long and are only designed and meant for riding short rides around town" Sorry if you think I reacted in an out of the norm way, but I did do a lot of research and talking to people that have had solar systems like mine in my area, and have had very very good reports.....and not just Sungevity customers either.

If I was rich and had enough money to invest in batteries I certainly would. Alas I'm not rich and cannot afford these expensive batteries that have to be replaced probably in less than 10 years, with today's technology. I am just tired of paying these really high electric bills and trying to save a few bucks every month. I know that "solar shingles" are an option, and I assume they are very expensive and I know that they are really new technology and can't believe they have nothing but "positives" going for them.

I did what I thought was right for us, just like when I bought my Spyder even though I was looked down on and even laughed at for buying "one of those stupid looking things that will never last and will never live up to what my former bikes were". All I can say is 100,700 miles later :yikes:I'm still very happy with my choice and rub it in to these "friends" that scoffed at me and said "it will never last"!! We will be married 50 years next year and was told way back then "it will never last"!! I think I'm on some kind of a roll!!:thumbup::yes:

 

[Spyderjockey]

Woah:shocked: Just trying to add some info and help out I see you do not appreciate it. I told you I teach this stuff but I guess that doesn't matter. As I said it sounds good and good luck personally with all the rebates and tax credits if I were going that route I would invest $20k and be done with it. That is just me. I doubt I will live 20 more years but my wife is 11yrs younger will.

To quote a famous or infamous woman......... "What difference does it make now"........ I already have a contract signed, panels are on and I'm 1 day away from being "turned on so to speak":shemademe_smilie: with these solar panels. I couldn't change things now even if I wanted to.....which I don't.

 

[Joe T.]

Syderjockey,

Good luck on your new adventure!! Anyone who is a 'first adopter' gets a lot of grief/negative comments. But, hang in there. Like you said, too late to change now.

As far as I am concerned, if Elon Musk believes this is a good investment (SolarCity), then who am I to argue? He is a lot smarter than me.

Like I said, GOOD LUCK! Please keep us posted as you go through this new adventure.

Regards,
Joe T.

 

[Spyderjockey]

Syderjockey,

Good luck on your new adventure!! Anyone who is a 'first adopter' gets a lot of grief/negative comments. But, hang in there. Like you said, too late to change now.

As far as I am concerned, if Elon Musk believes this is a good investment (SolarCity), then who am I to argue? He is a lot smarter than me.

Like I said, GOOD LUCK! Please keep us posted as you go through this new adventure.

Regards,
Joe T.

Thank you, Joe, for your positive comments. I see this was only your second post on Spyderlovers. Welcome to this forum, it is a great place to learn things about the Spyder and usually things are pretty congenial here. I see you have quite a corral of bikes. The Spyder is a completely different kind of ride than a 2 wheeler, but it is an addictive ride and a good way to meet some really nice people. Hope to see you on here a lot more and keep thinking about the Spyder!

 

[SpyderAnn01]

Jim, the pictures look great they pretty much blend in with your roof. What are the concerns when it snows? I don't want to hear about you scraping snow off your panels. :lecturef_smilie:

 

[Spyder_Cowgirl]

Nice Set Up -- We Did It Too

Wow ... nice set up! It should serve you well for years. We had a 10kW solar array installed in our pasture a couple of years ago that is, like yours, grid tied. However, unlike you, we opted for a purchase contract as we wanted to take advantage of all the tax benefits ourselves. For example:

• 30% tax credit on schedule A
• Balance depreciated against our ranch on schedule F

If we had gone with a lease ... the leasing company would have the benefit of the tax write off, instead of us. Plus, neither one of us was entirely comfortable with how they were writing the leases. Just seemed they were treading on the edge of legal because they were also getting grants from the USDA for residential installations in rural areas. Since we had already investigated these, we knew that those grants are only valid if the generated electricity is used EXCLUSIVELY for the farm (so to service a barn and not the house, for example). Anyway, leasing was not for us, and has turned out well because the firm that installed ours actually DID get caught playing a bit "loose" with the tax laws and is now out of business. You can imagine the nightmare for their customers that leased ... their systems are now "owned" by the courts ... it's just a mess. Well ...enough negative diversion ... sorry!

Anyway ... we call this, "our big expensive cow shelter" since it it the ONLY shade in this particular pasture late in the day. Oh, BTW, our electric company (a co-op) simply exchanges electricity with us at retail rate. So, when we produce more than we use it is a credit on our bill. I believe California uses fancy net meters that not only track the electricity produced but also the time of day and adjust the price accordingly. Our "bill" the last three months has been somewhere between -$20 and -$55 (yes, that's negative) ... we will probably go back on the positive side this month.

I like the look of your system, it fits nicely on your house .... Best Regards ... Ann