bikerbillone
Well-known member
Holy Christmas, I am impressed, go on another board and grumble about a legit problem, I have yet to see a 'corporate' respond. Whether this helps or not remains to be seen, still I am impressed.
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Frightening
- Thread starter treva
- Start date
Airborne
New member
Im impressed too! keep it up BRP good to see. it is rare to have a company respond like this, better still if the response turns to results! These type of sites are the place for companies to gain information, real feedback on their products.
....trevaI have sent an email to you. Thanks......Treva.
As others have said, ride at your own pace...Treva
Airborne
New member
Just bought a Windshield from the garage on here, took 2 weeks, great service, why hasn't Treva got his part!
:dontknow:.....Treva
Airborne
New member
Dead right Freddy, ride as you want and yes, always one or two around.
AB,like that !might have to use that as a new moniker!
Been there and experience this on 2017 RTL - probably even have the stains in the jocks to prove it.
Scenario 1: Chief cook and I were riding a country road negotiating a slow left-hander, not tight and no speed advisory. We were 4th in a group. Back brake locked the back wheel and the handlebars straightened. We coasted in this state for 5-5 meters into the oncoming lane and off the verge. While doing this I was trying to work out how I was going to try to avoid two large gum trees on the outside of the corner. Had any vehicle, especially one of the cattle trucks we had seen, been on the other lane neither of us would be here to reminisce. It frightened the hell out of the RT's following, and even the one in front who saw it happen in his rear view mirror having just negotiated the corner at the same speed on his 2016 RTL.
Scenario 2 In a line of traffic travelling at 100Km/hr. I was following a truck who was maintaining speed up a small incline. Out of the blue VSS cut in and applied the back break. The car following me had to swerve into the center of the road to avoid hitting me and the one behind him swerved up the inside to avoid me too. No cruise control, no acceleration to warrant a loss of traction that would cause the ABS or VSS to cut in.
Scenario 3 riding two up up the side of a hill and negotiated a Right hand turn with no speed advisory doing about 80km/hr on a 100km/hr limit road. Realized I was in too high a gear so dropped back a gear. Rear wheel locked up and handlebars straightened out, we were close to the center line and ended on the verge.
Being still under warranty, I took it to the dealership where I bought the RT, having complained about odd handling before - was told "its the way they behave, they'd investigate for 1 hour but if I wanted it investigated further I'd have to pay"
Took it to another dealership but didn't mention the issues. The tech took it for a test ride and came back - he was very diplomatic in his "WTF is going on with this thing?". He found
1. The rear top shock mount had been assembled incorrectly and the bolt holding it was finger tight.
2. The wheel alignment hadn't been done properly - leading to the VSS not being really sure what the hell was going on at any given time.
When it came time for me to take the bike for a test ride - there was another 2017 RTL in for a service. I jumped on the spyder he said was mine and rode to the corner of the building (which was the showroom in front of the workshop). I stopped, got off the RTL and walked around to the Number plate - I did not think/believe I was on my RT - it was. It now felt nothing like it had in the 15000km I had owned it from new.
While from time to time it still likes to lock the tail up and straighten the steering mid corner I now at least know I am pushing it a little too hard. Prior to this change I had no way of predicting when the VSS and back brake would cut in.
For me it has me reconsidering again weather I should go back to two wheels as I fear it ever returning. I felt safer in the wet on any of my past two wheeled bikes and am looking at the Honda Goldwing. Like you I have raced and ridden MotoX, Sports Road, Tourers, Quads, undertaken MC training and spent a lot of time trying to figure out the safest way to enjoy the RTL.
Below is the email I sent to the group GM of the dealership I bought mine from and will never return to until they get their act together.
1st_Dealership = where I bought the RTL
2nd_Dealership = where god works and fixed my RTL
XXX XXXYY = Managers and techs involved.
Hi Salesperson
Feel free to use this information in a way you see fit. Apologies also for the “lengthiness” and I provide this as feedback.
After the last visit to 1st_Dealership I wasn’t satisfied with the outcome to the issue with the VSS cutting in. I was told things which included “bumping the brake, the gear change, wheel slip, imperfections in the road”… to name a few were the cause. I sat in silence taking the information in and recall feeling this is ridiculous. The only issue found was the lead on the battery was loose causing an over-voltage condition. I admit with embarrassment that until that day I did not know where the battery was.
I took the bike to 2nd_Dealership for the 15000k service and asked them to perform a wheel alignment, but made no mention of the VSS.
In one day the tech addressed every issue the bike had.
When at 1st_Dealership for the VSS Service Manager stated he’d spend no more than an hour on the bike and that I’d have to pay. XXXYYY mentioned also on the day that the bike was pulling to the left which was something I knew, it had done this since the ball joint replacement visit to 1st_Dealership. He suggested tyre pressures be amended to address the camber in the road. I knew it to be more than this. WSM found the wheel alignment appeared to have been done incorrectly and pointed out a range of issues this would cause, including crabbing, twitching (where the bike moves constantly from side to side when in a straight line), nervousness under brakes and VSS/Steering assist being confused about the actual positional state of the bike.
2nd_Dealership also found that the rear shock mount had been assembled incorrectly, and the bolt or pin securing it was not tight, the nut was only finger tight. Lesser issues observed was that the Left mirror mount was broken and a rubber mounting grommet had not been refitted, panels I have never needed to remove were incorrectly fitted. There was more but I think you get the picture
They started at 08:00, the tech then I test rode the bike at 17:00 – I could not believe it was the same bike. I rode the driveway and stopped, got off the bike, checked the rego plate to confirm I hadn’t had a practical joke played on me. It handles as good as the 2018 model you kindly lent me and any other RT Ltd belonging to Spyder riders in the region that I have ridden as a comparison. I rode home via the putty in atrocious conditions and the bike did not falter in any way. It was confidence inspiring to ride and showed confidence in its ability to handle the average road conditions.
I have no doubt 1st_Dealership felt I was inadequate at portraying or misguided in interpreting the issues I was raising – but now have been vindicated by 2nd_Dealership. It was the most reassuring event to have the mechanic communicate a number of issues that I had always assumed would never be addressed.
I don’t know why my experience has been this way with 1st_Dealership Service Dept. I have :
• given feedback,
• and importantly tried to ensure my own actions weren’t the sole factor behind a problem,
• felt that the history we were building would lead to a good outcome eventually though persistence (I understand some problems take time to resolve)
• returned to the workshop when many in the region were scathing in their opinion at my persistence.
in my mind there are possibilities, some I can accept, but the ones that have seen my wife and I risking our lives on an unsafe bike twice due to it lunging and the unpredictability of the VSS requiring my constant harassment of 1st_Dealership are not.
Having managed teams in IT, NSW Fire Brigade and 30 odd staff when supervising a team of Tradesmen in my time at LPS, I see some issues that need attention:
• Techs minimising distraction when working on the bikes (forgetting to finish the shock mount).
• Techs checking their work to ensure the machine is returned in a safe state (ensuring all fittings are secured properly).
• Factory Trained Techs ensuring the full process recommended by BRP is followed to its fullest (wheel alignment procedure not fully adhered to).
• Trusting that the rider is not trying to con the workshop and that their experience on the machine is fully considered (VSS behaviour).
• Have the techs gain more experience on the Spyders so that they can legitimise issues reported by the client. I suspect often the issues are deemed to be normal behaviour by the techs when more familiarity would ensure they know the product well enough to recognise issues.
• That advice given is consistent.
• That advice given is safe (it was advised to me at 1st_Dealership to “run the rear tyre to almost bald because all the safety systems are going to keep you safe”.) I think we both know VSS will never address a situation where a tyre is unable to get any grip.
I hold no blame at XXXXX – he isn’t a BRP tech, and is less familiar with the product than that witnessed at 2nd_Dealership.
You and XXX have been tremendous and you especially have been a great help, mentor and friend. As mentioned when I rode the 2018 loaner – I considered twice asking for a changeover price, but reflected that I would still be locked into using the workshop there. I am in the position now that my safety and satisfaction must come first and will not return to 1st_Dealership until there is proof the environment at 1st_Dealership Service Dep’t changes for the better. In the event that it does I know personally a great number of Spyder riders in the region who would return to 1st_Dealership.
I hope you have a happy and safe Xmas/New Year. My wife and I are heading away for a week on the Spyder possibly to Vic. and S.A. with what amounts to a new machine. I still have you to thank for “wooing me” to the product and the enjoyment it now provides.
Scenario 1: Chief cook and I were riding a country road negotiating a slow left-hander, not tight and no speed advisory. We were 4th in a group. Back brake locked the back wheel and the handlebars straightened. We coasted in this state for 5-5 meters into the oncoming lane and off the verge. While doing this I was trying to work out how I was going to try to avoid two large gum trees on the outside of the corner. Had any vehicle, especially one of the cattle trucks we had seen, been on the other lane neither of us would be here to reminisce. It frightened the hell out of the RT's following, and even the one in front who saw it happen in his rear view mirror having just negotiated the corner at the same speed on his 2016 RTL.
Scenario 2 In a line of traffic travelling at 100Km/hr. I was following a truck who was maintaining speed up a small incline. Out of the blue VSS cut in and applied the back break. The car following me had to swerve into the center of the road to avoid hitting me and the one behind him swerved up the inside to avoid me too. No cruise control, no acceleration to warrant a loss of traction that would cause the ABS or VSS to cut in.
Scenario 3 riding two up up the side of a hill and negotiated a Right hand turn with no speed advisory doing about 80km/hr on a 100km/hr limit road. Realized I was in too high a gear so dropped back a gear. Rear wheel locked up and handlebars straightened out, we were close to the center line and ended on the verge.
Being still under warranty, I took it to the dealership where I bought the RT, having complained about odd handling before - was told "its the way they behave, they'd investigate for 1 hour but if I wanted it investigated further I'd have to pay"
Took it to another dealership but didn't mention the issues. The tech took it for a test ride and came back - he was very diplomatic in his "WTF is going on with this thing?". He found
1. The rear top shock mount had been assembled incorrectly and the bolt holding it was finger tight.
2. The wheel alignment hadn't been done properly - leading to the VSS not being really sure what the hell was going on at any given time.
When it came time for me to take the bike for a test ride - there was another 2017 RTL in for a service. I jumped on the spyder he said was mine and rode to the corner of the building (which was the showroom in front of the workshop). I stopped, got off the RTL and walked around to the Number plate - I did not think/believe I was on my RT - it was. It now felt nothing like it had in the 15000km I had owned it from new.
While from time to time it still likes to lock the tail up and straighten the steering mid corner I now at least know I am pushing it a little too hard. Prior to this change I had no way of predicting when the VSS and back brake would cut in.
For me it has me reconsidering again weather I should go back to two wheels as I fear it ever returning. I felt safer in the wet on any of my past two wheeled bikes and am looking at the Honda Goldwing. Like you I have raced and ridden MotoX, Sports Road, Tourers, Quads, undertaken MC training and spent a lot of time trying to figure out the safest way to enjoy the RTL.
Below is the email I sent to the group GM of the dealership I bought mine from and will never return to until they get their act together.
1st_Dealership = where I bought the RTL
2nd_Dealership = where god works and fixed my RTL
XXX XXXYY = Managers and techs involved.
Hi Salesperson
Feel free to use this information in a way you see fit. Apologies also for the “lengthiness” and I provide this as feedback.
After the last visit to 1st_Dealership I wasn’t satisfied with the outcome to the issue with the VSS cutting in. I was told things which included “bumping the brake, the gear change, wheel slip, imperfections in the road”… to name a few were the cause. I sat in silence taking the information in and recall feeling this is ridiculous. The only issue found was the lead on the battery was loose causing an over-voltage condition. I admit with embarrassment that until that day I did not know where the battery was.
I took the bike to 2nd_Dealership for the 15000k service and asked them to perform a wheel alignment, but made no mention of the VSS.
In one day the tech addressed every issue the bike had.
When at 1st_Dealership for the VSS Service Manager stated he’d spend no more than an hour on the bike and that I’d have to pay. XXXYYY mentioned also on the day that the bike was pulling to the left which was something I knew, it had done this since the ball joint replacement visit to 1st_Dealership. He suggested tyre pressures be amended to address the camber in the road. I knew it to be more than this. WSM found the wheel alignment appeared to have been done incorrectly and pointed out a range of issues this would cause, including crabbing, twitching (where the bike moves constantly from side to side when in a straight line), nervousness under brakes and VSS/Steering assist being confused about the actual positional state of the bike.
2nd_Dealership also found that the rear shock mount had been assembled incorrectly, and the bolt or pin securing it was not tight, the nut was only finger tight. Lesser issues observed was that the Left mirror mount was broken and a rubber mounting grommet had not been refitted, panels I have never needed to remove were incorrectly fitted. There was more but I think you get the picture
They started at 08:00, the tech then I test rode the bike at 17:00 – I could not believe it was the same bike. I rode the driveway and stopped, got off the bike, checked the rego plate to confirm I hadn’t had a practical joke played on me. It handles as good as the 2018 model you kindly lent me and any other RT Ltd belonging to Spyder riders in the region that I have ridden as a comparison. I rode home via the putty in atrocious conditions and the bike did not falter in any way. It was confidence inspiring to ride and showed confidence in its ability to handle the average road conditions.
I have no doubt 1st_Dealership felt I was inadequate at portraying or misguided in interpreting the issues I was raising – but now have been vindicated by 2nd_Dealership. It was the most reassuring event to have the mechanic communicate a number of issues that I had always assumed would never be addressed.
I don’t know why my experience has been this way with 1st_Dealership Service Dept. I have :
• given feedback,
• and importantly tried to ensure my own actions weren’t the sole factor behind a problem,
• felt that the history we were building would lead to a good outcome eventually though persistence (I understand some problems take time to resolve)
• returned to the workshop when many in the region were scathing in their opinion at my persistence.
in my mind there are possibilities, some I can accept, but the ones that have seen my wife and I risking our lives on an unsafe bike twice due to it lunging and the unpredictability of the VSS requiring my constant harassment of 1st_Dealership are not.
Having managed teams in IT, NSW Fire Brigade and 30 odd staff when supervising a team of Tradesmen in my time at LPS, I see some issues that need attention:
• Techs minimising distraction when working on the bikes (forgetting to finish the shock mount).
• Techs checking their work to ensure the machine is returned in a safe state (ensuring all fittings are secured properly).
• Factory Trained Techs ensuring the full process recommended by BRP is followed to its fullest (wheel alignment procedure not fully adhered to).
• Trusting that the rider is not trying to con the workshop and that their experience on the machine is fully considered (VSS behaviour).
• Have the techs gain more experience on the Spyders so that they can legitimise issues reported by the client. I suspect often the issues are deemed to be normal behaviour by the techs when more familiarity would ensure they know the product well enough to recognise issues.
• That advice given is consistent.
• That advice given is safe (it was advised to me at 1st_Dealership to “run the rear tyre to almost bald because all the safety systems are going to keep you safe”.) I think we both know VSS will never address a situation where a tyre is unable to get any grip.
I hold no blame at XXXXX – he isn’t a BRP tech, and is less familiar with the product than that witnessed at 2nd_Dealership.
You and XXX have been tremendous and you especially have been a great help, mentor and friend. As mentioned when I rode the 2018 loaner – I considered twice asking for a changeover price, but reflected that I would still be locked into using the workshop there. I am in the position now that my safety and satisfaction must come first and will not return to 1st_Dealership until there is proof the environment at 1st_Dealership Service Dep’t changes for the better. In the event that it does I know personally a great number of Spyder riders in the region who would return to 1st_Dealership.
I hope you have a happy and safe Xmas/New Year. My wife and I are heading away for a week on the Spyder possibly to Vic. and S.A. with what amounts to a new machine. I still have you to thank for “wooing me” to the product and the enjoyment it now provides.
My goodness askitee, 3 times and you are still here to tell the tale. You are a lot gamer than me. Someone is definitely looking after you. I certainly won't be riding my bike until the problem has been fully diagnosed and rectified. This is a serious safety issue and I never want to experience another rear wheel lock up.......Treva
ChicagoSpyder
New member
It's an excellent question, Air Canada has a flight from Montreal to Brisbane 21h 55m, allow a few more days for customs and some local transport time and it should be a done deal.
Something has stalled the part transfer process, and I'm fairly sure I know why. Diagnosing an electronic lockup is a few steps towards '' rocket science''.... Treva
Airborne
New member
Askites, Wow! jock strainer for sure! It would stop me riding my bike. Well done for surviving 3 attempts on your life and the tenacity to pursue through to a good result.
I Guess all's well that ends well but what a story, in depth and well told!
One thing to come out of this is how important it is to have a good dealer and how bad it is to have a crap one. Our machines are not as straightforward as a lot of others and should have specialist care and attention it seems but the training, experience and most importantly the right attitude must be there, in your case Dealer 2 sounds good.
I kinda worried about my dealer, very friendly, easy-going but proficient, i hope so.
it's only 30 km away [next on is 400 km away] i wonder how good the tech is and does he do the right thing all the time. Time will tell i suppose. Don't suppose your Dealer 2 is opening a franchise in Australia's 'deep south', is he! Whatever hes got we should bottle it.
Anyway, glad to hear its all sorted and hope your Spyder future carries on positively.
I Guess all's well that ends well but what a story, in depth and well told!
One thing to come out of this is how important it is to have a good dealer and how bad it is to have a crap one. Our machines are not as straightforward as a lot of others and should have specialist care and attention it seems but the training, experience and most importantly the right attitude must be there, in your case Dealer 2 sounds good.
I kinda worried about my dealer, very friendly, easy-going but proficient, i hope so.
it's only 30 km away [next on is 400 km away] i wonder how good the tech is and does he do the right thing all the time. Time will tell i suppose. Don't suppose your Dealer 2 is opening a franchise in Australia's 'deep south', is he! Whatever hes got we should bottle it.
Anyway, glad to hear its all sorted and hope your Spyder future carries on positively.
h0gr1der
New member
I'm going to throw out a comment that may be totally alien to some, some may have way more knowledge than me about it and be able to expound. We are all riding on the algorithm. The Spyder is computer controlled, and in some cases autonomously. I'd really like to see the actual findings in this case. It applies to all of us, in some way or another.
In the industry I worked in, I&E automation ran almost everything. Based on a hazard's identified danger to destroy or kill, and probability of an incident happening, IEC 61508/61511, SIL #1 through #4 dictated what type of control was mandated. A really bad thing that almost never happens gets a low SIL rating, and minimal control systems. A really bad thing that happens often gets a high SIL rating, sometimes mandating redundancy of control. Gibberish, I know, but let me continue.
Back to the Spyder. G force sensors, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors, so many sensors and electronics. How many sensors have to agree before autonomous braking is applied? The wheel sensors appear to be Hall switches, either to an amplitude measurement input or high speed counter. To be safe, it should probably be a circuit with a built in design safety, commonly called closed loop. Some kind of reference signal (12 VDC), that if lost, causes the safe shutdown (Limp Mode) without causing an unsafe action (Full Braking Application). What if the one sensor that causes this kind of action fails in such a mode that it thinks it's OK, no loss of the feedback loop? If it's a single point measurement system (Low SIL Rating), then you get this kind of situation.
I'd really like to know what they find.
In the industry I worked in, I&E automation ran almost everything. Based on a hazard's identified danger to destroy or kill, and probability of an incident happening, IEC 61508/61511, SIL #1 through #4 dictated what type of control was mandated. A really bad thing that almost never happens gets a low SIL rating, and minimal control systems. A really bad thing that happens often gets a high SIL rating, sometimes mandating redundancy of control. Gibberish, I know, but let me continue.
Back to the Spyder. G force sensors, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors, so many sensors and electronics. How many sensors have to agree before autonomous braking is applied? The wheel sensors appear to be Hall switches, either to an amplitude measurement input or high speed counter. To be safe, it should probably be a circuit with a built in design safety, commonly called closed loop. Some kind of reference signal (12 VDC), that if lost, causes the safe shutdown (Limp Mode) without causing an unsafe action (Full Braking Application). What if the one sensor that causes this kind of action fails in such a mode that it thinks it's OK, no loss of the feedback loop? If it's a single point measurement system (Low SIL Rating), then you get this kind of situation.
I'd really like to know what they find.
I know where you're coming from hogr1der, and the list of inquiring minds gets longer by the day seeking the cause of the l/up. ...Treva
HI h0gr1der,
Sounds like one of my theories when mine was playing up. I explained it seemed as if the VSS was getting conflicting signals.
I wondered if:
: A sensor was connected with incorrect polarity.
: Sensors needed calibrating ( eg a 50'ft diameter fan where sensors at either end of the shaft determine if the vibration is at one end or central. the sensors had to be calibrated to make sure their readings were identical in their default state or adjusted for manufacturing differences).
: A sensor was left disconnected.
: In VSS there needed to be adjustments to sensor sensitivity that hadn't been looked at (they spent a month dealing with the RTL lunging and found a defective balljoint)
The day I took my RTL to the shop where I bought it, I asked some straight questions of the Service Manager - he just glazed over. After about 10mins I could see he had no idea what I was talking about and could not explain in any detail how the process works in specific situations. It was too easy for him to blame me, road conditions, riding style.
I still have strong reservations about the way VSS straightens the steering completely rather than minor adjustments if it needs to react. There is no way for the rider to react/address short of praying no one is coming in the opposite direction. I LOVE so many aspects of the RTL, but this sole issue nags at me each time it cuts in. Having ridden two wheelers for so long I knew what to do in situations, having developed my skills over hundreds of thousands of KM's riding in all and any weather.
I am active in the regional riding scene, active on Social media assisting others where I can, but at present I am weighing up whether I should go back to something like a Goldwing where I could trust the machine. Car/Truck/bus drivers do enought to try to take us out - we sure as heck dont need another reason stemming from some bad tech choices to add to the list!!
Sounds like one of my theories when mine was playing up. I explained it seemed as if the VSS was getting conflicting signals.
I wondered if:
: A sensor was connected with incorrect polarity.
: Sensors needed calibrating ( eg a 50'ft diameter fan where sensors at either end of the shaft determine if the vibration is at one end or central. the sensors had to be calibrated to make sure their readings were identical in their default state or adjusted for manufacturing differences).
: A sensor was left disconnected.
: In VSS there needed to be adjustments to sensor sensitivity that hadn't been looked at (they spent a month dealing with the RTL lunging and found a defective balljoint)
The day I took my RTL to the shop where I bought it, I asked some straight questions of the Service Manager - he just glazed over. After about 10mins I could see he had no idea what I was talking about and could not explain in any detail how the process works in specific situations. It was too easy for him to blame me, road conditions, riding style.
I still have strong reservations about the way VSS straightens the steering completely rather than minor adjustments if it needs to react. There is no way for the rider to react/address short of praying no one is coming in the opposite direction. I LOVE so many aspects of the RTL, but this sole issue nags at me each time it cuts in. Having ridden two wheelers for so long I knew what to do in situations, having developed my skills over hundreds of thousands of KM's riding in all and any weather.
I am active in the regional riding scene, active on Social media assisting others where I can, but at present I am weighing up whether I should go back to something like a Goldwing where I could trust the machine. Car/Truck/bus drivers do enought to try to take us out - we sure as heck dont need another reason stemming from some bad tech choices to add to the list!!
WingManDan
New member
Hmmm. Not sure what all that means but I can understand the idea you are suggesting. So... yes we need to know what is going on here.
Re these odd issues, especially the kept going straight ahead one (who's was that?), the VSS was developed by BOSCH and is waaay up there with the best in the world, so I don't think there's any significant inherent problems, altho the sensor connection/disconnection concerns may well be of concern wrt what's happened to a few ryders now
That said, as has been noted by some, the VSS is fed info/readings from a whole raftload of sensors & devices, incĺuding the DPS, so it can adjust it's response aimed at keeping the Spyder upright & not spinning; a response that can vary the rapidity & strength of steering input (but not reverse it nor completely cancel it out!) and that includes the application of one or more brake calipers a little or a lot, all in order to help you head in the direction the VSS 'sees' you trying to turn, and at the same time applying the brakes as & when necessary to mitigate any steering or other input that's potentially going to cause a flip or spin. The VSS takes notice of what you are doing on the brakes & throttle and also reads both the direction you're turning and the speed/pressure of that turning effort when it's 'deciding' what to do, and it can then either reduce or enhance that directional change depending on all the inputs, especially how hard & how quickly you've fed that steering change in, something that can be pretty handy at times!! If you haul very quickly and hard on one side of the bar, like you would if the car immediately in front of you literally stopped dead on the road just a few yards in front of you, the VSS can pretty much help you make an 'at speed' tiny radius 90 degree turn faster than a fighter jet in order to avoid, and without flipping or spinning too!! It really is that bloody good!
hyea:
But knowing that, you also need to be aware that it will also react to those tiny 'involuntary' or possibly even 'subliminal' twitches that many people make in their steering control inputs, especially those coming off years of 2-wheeled riding with all the muscle memory that entails, just before they make the conciously controlled 'correct for a Spyder' steering reaction. These little twitches can happen well before your concious reaction kicks in & well (in terms of milli-seconds) before you can actually apply the necessary gross motor controlled movements required to avoid on a Spyder rather than those exactly wrong 2-wheel derived muscle memory twitches that the VSS may have already read and reacted to in the milli-seconds before you conciously evaded!! I think that these 'involuntary muscle memory twitches' might be at least partially to blame for the 'uneasiness & wandering' that many 'new to Spyders but not to 2 wheelers' type riders experience & some complain about, and I'm wondering if muscle memory driven 'reactive twitches' had any involvement in that 'going straight ahead' incident?!? The VSS can and will react to sudden steering input far faster than you can think, especially if the input is rapid & hard, just like it would be if you were shocked enough for muscle memory twitches to occur before you could conciously stop them happening and actively steer the right way! Maybe the involuntary twitch reaction that was the opposite of the concious minds avoidance reaction worked to confuse the VSS response or they pretty much cancelled each other out, at least to some degree.... :dontknow:
Still, I'm more inclined to think we should be searching for one (or more?) incorrectly fitted or disconnected sensors rather than hunting for an inherent issue with the VSS, and once we've ruled any dud connection or sensor issues out, I'd think it might be worth our time to look at how your actions/reactions may have been interpreted by the VSS to see if there's something in what you do/did that's causing a reaction that's not quite what you'd normally expect. I've been lucky enough to do some closed-road & skid-pan testing on this & was horrified to see how much & how quickly my Spyder responded to my involuntary 'muscle memory' reactions before I could conciously apply the neccesary Spyder control inputs needed. It's not something that's really going to have a great impact on anyone's daily ryding, probably won't even be an issue when we make a 'normal' evasion manoeuvre, but when it's an 'all out balls to the wall' type panic manoeuvre, those 'muscle memory' twitches that we've laboured so hard at developing over the last decades of 2-wheeled riding now need to be refined & in some cases, reversed to remain safe for Spyder Ryding! :shocked:
Over to you all?!! :thumbup:
That said, as has been noted by some, the VSS is fed info/readings from a whole raftload of sensors & devices, incĺuding the DPS, so it can adjust it's response aimed at keeping the Spyder upright & not spinning; a response that can vary the rapidity & strength of steering input (but not reverse it nor completely cancel it out!) and that includes the application of one or more brake calipers a little or a lot, all in order to help you head in the direction the VSS 'sees' you trying to turn, and at the same time applying the brakes as & when necessary to mitigate any steering or other input that's potentially going to cause a flip or spin. The VSS takes notice of what you are doing on the brakes & throttle and also reads both the direction you're turning and the speed/pressure of that turning effort when it's 'deciding' what to do, and it can then either reduce or enhance that directional change depending on all the inputs, especially how hard & how quickly you've fed that steering change in, something that can be pretty handy at times!! If you haul very quickly and hard on one side of the bar, like you would if the car immediately in front of you literally stopped dead on the road just a few yards in front of you, the VSS can pretty much help you make an 'at speed' tiny radius 90 degree turn faster than a fighter jet in order to avoid, and without flipping or spinning too!! It really is that bloody good!
hyea:But knowing that, you also need to be aware that it will also react to those tiny 'involuntary' or possibly even 'subliminal' twitches that many people make in their steering control inputs, especially those coming off years of 2-wheeled riding with all the muscle memory that entails, just before they make the conciously controlled 'correct for a Spyder' steering reaction. These little twitches can happen well before your concious reaction kicks in & well (in terms of milli-seconds) before you can actually apply the necessary gross motor controlled movements required to avoid on a Spyder rather than those exactly wrong 2-wheel derived muscle memory twitches that the VSS may have already read and reacted to in the milli-seconds before you conciously evaded!! I think that these 'involuntary muscle memory twitches' might be at least partially to blame for the 'uneasiness & wandering' that many 'new to Spyders but not to 2 wheelers' type riders experience & some complain about, and I'm wondering if muscle memory driven 'reactive twitches' had any involvement in that 'going straight ahead' incident?!? The VSS can and will react to sudden steering input far faster than you can think, especially if the input is rapid & hard, just like it would be if you were shocked enough for muscle memory twitches to occur before you could conciously stop them happening and actively steer the right way! Maybe the involuntary twitch reaction that was the opposite of the concious minds avoidance reaction worked to confuse the VSS response or they pretty much cancelled each other out, at least to some degree.... :dontknow:
Still, I'm more inclined to think we should be searching for one (or more?) incorrectly fitted or disconnected sensors rather than hunting for an inherent issue with the VSS, and once we've ruled any dud connection or sensor issues out, I'd think it might be worth our time to look at how your actions/reactions may have been interpreted by the VSS to see if there's something in what you do/did that's causing a reaction that's not quite what you'd normally expect. I've been lucky enough to do some closed-road & skid-pan testing on this & was horrified to see how much & how quickly my Spyder responded to my involuntary 'muscle memory' reactions before I could conciously apply the neccesary Spyder control inputs needed. It's not something that's really going to have a great impact on anyone's daily ryding, probably won't even be an issue when we make a 'normal' evasion manoeuvre, but when it's an 'all out balls to the wall' type panic manoeuvre, those 'muscle memory' twitches that we've laboured so hard at developing over the last decades of 2-wheeled riding now need to be refined & in some cases, reversed to remain safe for Spyder Ryding! :shocked:
Over to you all?!! :thumbup:
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