DEATH OF AMERICAN STEEL

[JerryB]

Hi Chris,

Re: Just my two cents.

That's about what any of us has to offer.

When Watt perfected the steam engine, the end of manual labor in manufacturing was doomed. Ever hear of the Luddites?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

In the history of mankind, we have continually been trying to decrease the amount of labor to do any task.

It is just that manufacturing is the first & easiest to automate. Today, designers are working on how to pick crops with machinery; and there goes those jobs.

Today, the number of workers to build a car is a mere fraction of what is was for Henry Ford.

Quite a few years ago, a couple of Yale professers wrote a book ( I do not remember the name of it ) that said, the manufacturing jobs that went overseas are not coming back. I realize that some will, but again, only a fraction.

The world is changing, the train is moving. You can choose to get on board to watch it fade in the distance.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[JerryB]

Hi Bob,

Re: So is it better to import foreign goods that cost less money: but kill our jobs?

Have you ever shopped at WalMart? If so, then you support 'kill our jobs.'

I have never shopped at WalMart & never will for this very reason.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[Holly]

Without turning this thread into a political discussion please tell us just what the president has proposed that is currently in force and working? I don't see it.

This is exactly why people shouldn't do drugs. :roflblack:




(While I 100% disagree with you and could give plenty of examples, that above was all in fun)

 

[R FUN]

The high tariff talk on steel and aluminum can only cause problems on both side of the border. We sell you the raw material but then buy it back in automobiles, trucks, machinery etc. If we then put the tariff on these imports then we will be buying more Toyoto, Nissan, Subaru etc. Three of my friends have just bought Toyota vehicles lately. I own a Dodge,a Ram [both US vehicles}, and a Mercedes and would not think twice about buying a Toyota Tundra if that happened. Nobody will win plus blackmale is not the way to deal.
Roger

 

[Rogue Hawk]

Never!!!!!

 

[RinconRyder]

Thank you! :thumbup: :agree:
So is it better to import foreign goods that cost less money: but kill our jobs?
Or pay more for what we buy; and have more jobs created?

Says the new owner of a foreign-made and very expensive motorcycle.

 

[RinconRyder]

This is exactly why people shouldn't do drugs. :roflblack:




(While I 100% disagree with you and could give plenty of examples, that above was all in fun)

I thought not.

 

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

spyders much like chrysler in the 1980's are built in north america

 

[loisk]

We have a Jeep - "American tin" you think? .... Made in Austria

Trade is global, a reality whether we like it or not, and economic history shows that trying to hold back the tide via tariffs will NOT re-open any closed factories .... Good luck with that TRainwave

 

[ofdave]

The high tariff talk on steel and aluminum can only cause problems on both side of the border. We sell you the raw material but then buy it back in automobiles, trucks, machinery etc. If we then put the tariff on these imports then we will be buying more Toyoto, Nissan, Subaru etc. Three of my friends have just bought Toyota vehicles lately. I own a Dodge,a Ram [both US vehicles}, and a Mercedes and would not think twice about buying a Toyota Tundra if that happened. Nobody will win plus blackmale is not the way to deal.
Roger

your Ram was made either in Saltillo, Mexico or Warren, Michigan.
The Tundra is made in San Antonio
depending on the model, your Mercedes could have been made in Tuscaloosa, Ala

• (Mercedes-Benz GLE SUV, Mercedes-Benz GLS SUV, Mercedes-Benz GLE Coupe and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class)

So how will the tariff effect the foreign companies purchasing foreign steel to produce/sell vehicles in the US?
gets complicated

 

[Bob Denman]

Hi Bob,

Re: So is it better to import foreign goods that cost less money: but kill our jobs?

Have you ever shopped at WalMart? If so, then you support 'kill our jobs.'

I have never shopped at WalMart & never will for this very reason.

Jerry Baumchen

Neither do we!
Walmart killed Schrade Cutlery up here...
Look up the story... nojoke

 

[JerryB]

Hi Bob,

Re: Neither do we!

Good for you. Glad that we can agree on that.

Re: Walmart killed Schrade Cutlery up here... Look up the story...

I will, thanks for the lead.

Walmart also nearly killed RubberMaid. PBS did a great tv episode on that disaster.

Walmart is not a friend of working people,

Jerry Baumchen

PS) Bob, while you & I disagree on a number of issues; if we ever meet up, let's have a drink on those things we do agree on.

 

[blitzkreig]

Here, from trade.gov, ie your govt, are the top ten countries (by volume) from which you import steel - as at sept 2017

Canada 16%
Brazil 13%
South Korea 10%
Russia, yes, Russia 9%
Mexico 9%
Turkey 7%
Japan 5%
Taiwan 4%
Germany 3%
India 2%

OK how much steel did Canada import from the US ... OH! it was about the same amount that the US has imported from Canada. DOH! That is so dumb to state the one without the other ...

 

[Netminder]

Hi Bob,

Re: So is it better to import foreign goods that cost less money: but kill our jobs?

Have you ever shopped at WalMart? If so, then you support 'kill our jobs.'

I have never shopped at WalMart & never will for this very reason.

Jerry Baumchen

I am with you there, the last time I was there which was about 7 yrs ago, I started turning things over and everything had " made in china" on the bottom. And not just a few items, I mean pretty will everything except medication. I saw Dr.Scholls shoes and said they have to be made in USA, nope, china. Main reason I no longer go! I would rather pay a bit more for something made in North America! Back on Topic my cousin is a retired steel worker in Hamilton, and is in danger of losing a good portion of his pension, So the industry is hurting in places here to.

 

[RinconRyder]

Back on Topic my cousin is a retired steel worker in Hamilton, and is in danger of losing a good portion of his pension...

That is EXACTLY the reason I funded my own retirement instead of depending upon my employer to do so. Yes, it meant sacrifice during a good portion of my working years but when I retired I had a very nice nest egg which is now larger than it was in 2001 despite my wife's attempts to reduce it to ashes.

 

[C. Lee]

...

So you're saying government policies had nothing to do with the steel decline in our country? The steel companies and unions were screaming for government intervention over the foreign steel dumping in the 2000's and the government did nothing which caused many companies to close because they couldn't compete with steel being sold for less then it cost to be produced. They wanted tariffs then and there should have been something done then

Also you're saying that American has its place in the world by default. I couldn't disagree more, the world is in its current position because of American exceptionalism. Our country was the greatest in the world before WWII it was the strength of our middle class and manufacturing that made us that way. Chris

 

[oldgoat]

You import Canadian aluminum because it is cheaper to produce it in Quebec & BC due to the low electricity costs in those provinces.
It takes a lot of electricity to produce aluminum from bauxite.

 

[loisk]

OK how much steel did Canada import from the US ... OH! it was about the same amount that the US has imported from Canada. DOH! That is so dumb to state the one without the other ...

You missed my point totally.
The new tariff relates to imports to USA.
Many posters presumed the tariff was aimed at China, and therefore would solve their ills.
My list simply showed that USA imports higher volumes of steel from ten countries ahead of China.
Definitely not having a go at any of the countries listed.
So, not dumb at all - the tariff under discussion relates to USA imports only.

 

[RinconRyder]

So you're saying government policies had nothing to do with the steel decline in our country? I did not say that. I pointed out the several primary reasons the USA is no longer a world leader in steel production. The steel companies and unions were screaming for government intervention over the foreign steel dumping in the 2000's and the government did nothing which caused many companies to close because they couldn't compete with steel being sold for less then it cost to be produced. They wanted tariffs then and there should have been something done then "Dumping" is illegal according to virtually every trade agreement written since the turn of the 20th century but that doesn't stop it from happening - to steel and many other products. There is a fine line between "dumping" (which is the sale of product at less than the cost to produce) and just pure competition (which is usually defined as direct labor costs and cost of appropriate pollution controls). America has higher labor costs and more stringent pollution controls and these virtually ensure our cost of production will be higher than any underdeveloped country.

Also you're saying that American has its place in the world by default. I couldn't disagree more, the world is in its current position because of American exceptionalism. Our country was the greatest in the world before WWII it was the strength of our middle class and manufacturing that made us that way. Chris

You really have no idea of our history. Before WWII the USA was basically an isolated country, politically and economically. Americans wanted it that way predominately because of the strife caused by our involvement in WWI. Prior to the beginning of WWII (1939) the American Army (including National Guard and Auxiliaries) was smaller than the army of Portugal. President Roosevelt's huge task was to argue against the "America Firsters" who did not want the USA involved in "another European war". Great Britain had the largest navy in the world and ours was not as robust as that of Italy. We began WWII with aircraft of laughable design and were outclassed by virtually every other combatant.

It is true America had a very large manufacturing industry and the earnings of that industry was fundamental in building a major middle class. That did not make us a world leader though. Both Germany and the USSR had larger manufacturing industries until they suffered major wartime damage.

Following WWII the UK, Japan and Germany were wrecked totally and it took them decades to get back on their feet. The USSR recovered faster but that was largely due to its size and population and what was, in effect, slave labor. The only major participant in the war not suffering damage on its own soil was the USA and that is why the 1950's were a decade of American expansionism and unparalleled prosperity. The factories existing at the end of the war quickly reverted to building cars, home appliances and all manner of other gadgets that were in great demand throughout the world. As other countries recovered their manufacturing capability we were gradually outclassed as the world proceeded into a world economy.

Several other industries have come along since the war ended that have gradually replaced manufacturing. The Tech sector is today huge and the USA still leads there. Those workers are largely today's middle class but it doesn't take as many of them to build their products as did manufacturing.

...

 

[C. Lee]

I won't engage in this debate anymore since you are so much smarter then me and you don't have any trouble telling me so. I guess I didn't know what dumping meant until you told me. Thanks so much. Chris