Considering a new exhaust?...read this!! Aftermarket exhaust problem solved!!

[SSL4X4]

Okay here goes. I was wrong. I was wrong for listening to my dealer insted of YOU GUYS. I recently installed the Two Bros Dual exhaust. I went for look. It was a bit too loud so I put the tips in and its good now. What was really disappointing was it ran really rough and cough at slow speed starts and gearing down at a stop. It was obvious it wasnt running right so I called my dealer. They asked me to bring it in. Meanwhile, Magic Man told me to disconnect the battery to power down the ECU so it would pick up the new exhaust and adjust to it. I have also ready MANY threads on here that say to do just that!!! When I called my dealer they said that wouldnt help and to bring it in. So I listened like a trusting consumer does. They put their super duper Spyder mechanic on my bike yesterday and he also did the upgrade on my parking brake. The brake works great but after about an hour in the waiting room they tell me there is nothing they can do about the factory settings of the ECU. they hooked it to the diagnostic computer and everything is working "fine". All my friends who ride called "bull---" on that diagnosis!!:yikes:

So today I am getting ready to ride and decided to take on the prokect of disconnecting the battery. It took me about 10 mins to do this and I let the bike sit for about 20 mins while i wiped it down for my ride. Put it back together and started it up. WOW. It started at 2000 RPMS...idled up to 4500 rpms...then leveled off at 3000rpms. I let it idle about 12 mins. Interesting huh?...Why would it do that if the computer is set and cant be changed? I am no mechanic but not stupid!! It seemed like it was getting hot so I did and oh crap and turned it off after 12 mins. Let it cool down and started it again....1500 rpms perfect and no choking...idled fine. Took it for a spin around the block and OMG you guys were right. I am going to make a visit to my dealer tomorrow and recommend they join our website!!! Fortunately they worked with my bike yesterday and didnt charge me a penny. They wasted my time and theirs however when a simple battery disconnect would have done the trick!!:spyder:Sorry for the long post but me thinks everyone out there considering an aftermarket exhaust could benefit by hearing my story!!

 

[Lamonster]

Sometimes those interweb guys are right. :joke:

 

[Brandy]

This coming week I will be putting on an after market exhaust, how long do I disconnect the battery before starting it up for the first time?

 

[bjt]

The easiest thing to do is to disconnect the battery first thing, then do the muffler swap, and then reconnect the battery. That should give you at least 20 minutes of having the battery disconnected (unless you are a super fast Spyder mechanic). Most reports have 20 minutes as being a good amount of time to get the computers to forget anything that can be forgotten with a power loss.

 

[Brandy]

The easiest thing to do is to disconnect the battery first thing, then do the muffler swap, and then reconnect the battery. That should give you at least 20 minutes of having the battery disconnected (unless you are a super fast Spyder mechanic). Most reports have 20 minutes as being a good amount of time to get the computers to forget anything that can be forgotten with a power loss.

Thanks BJT. Unfortunately, not a super fast Spyder mechanic, actually not much of a mechanic although I sure wish I was! Thanks goodness for a husband to pick up the slack in the departments that I lack.

 

[bone crusher]

Disconnect for at least 20 minutes...put on new pipe...then let run for at least 15 minutes after the new equipment is attached...this is what is done for the hindle...the methodology should be the same for most all pipes...then again, some might not work with the ECU and will create problems...

 

[mjw930]

It would be really interesting to talk to one of the BRP engineers to discover what is really happening in the ECM when power is removed. I ask because I've done a lot of ECM programming on Motronic, Bosch and Delphi ECM's and ALL of them remember EVERTHING when power is removed. The only way to clear the Block Learned Tables (BLM) is to reset them with the service computer. Some even remember the BLM's when new maps are installed and you have to execute a specific command to erase the table.

I can't argue with anecdotal evidence such as the first post but inquiring minds want to know what's really going on and why they didn't include this step in the Hindle instructions because a modern ECM, especially one that's burdened with a lot of EPA regulations isn't supposed to erase anything when power is removed.

BTW, I think you can simply remove the 40 AMP main fuse and accomplish the same thing as removing the tupperware to get to the battery.

 

[mjw930]

I wonder if tables are actually rewritten in this ECU, or if learned offsets are applied to fixed tables:dontknow: If that were the case couldn't those return to zero upon power loss?

Typically they are written to a table separate from the fixed tables and are used to add or subtract from the fixed value based on learned behavior. These are usually called Block Learned Multipliers or BLM for short.

I just looked over the electrical diagram for the ECM and there is no separate positive voltage available to the ECM when the ignition is turned off. Regardless of the observed behavior, disconnecting the battery has no effect on the ECM.

Basically, every time you turn off the ignition you remove ALL power from the ECM.

 

[Sopher]

In case anyone is curious, I asked a long while ago about options for a baffle or something for the new Micron slipon. Well, I followed ataDude's post with using a SuperTrapp 2.25" that I got from Summit Racing. Fabriated my own steel bracket that's hidden on the inner side of the pipe. Works like a charm. I currently have 9 of the 12 baffle plates in.
When I had the Micron I would get a headache from the resonating pitch in the full face helmet. No so now witht he SuperTrapp.

Plus it has a nice rumble and cool bad-ass sound. Like the saying goes, Hear me, See me.

 

[mjw930]

As long as we're on the subject, do you think the BLM's are applied only to the closed loop areas of the map, or would they be used to offset the open loop areas as well? Additionally, how long do you think it would take to apply these changes? Real-time or averaged over some time frame? When I installed the Two Brothers muffler on my wife's Spyder, it had a nasty decel pop until I installed the o2 modifier. Didn't want to run it too lean for too long waiting for the ECU to catch up....:doorag:

Honestly, I don't have any idea because I don't know how Rotax / BRP implemented their closed loop operation.

Typically the learned value table BLM or AFV depending on the terminology, isn't a 1 to 1 match with the map or VE table so someting learned in a closed loop cell could carry over to an open loop cell but without knowing the architecture of the ECM it's impossible to know for sure.

You also need to realize that the ECM only operated in closed loop mode under specific conditions. It's typically running in open loop durring warmup, under dynamic load or at WOT. Close loop only happens under controilled conditions such as idle or relatively constant throttle. However, Adaptive values learned durring steady state operation are still used to calculate fuel needs even when the system is operating in open loop.

So, the bottom line is it could take a long time to re-learn the table if you've run for a long time but on the positive side, the values learned for the stock setup should be close to baseline, if the original program is well sorted so it should begin adapting fairly quickly. I think the 15 minute idle routine came from the engineers knowing how long it would take to average the new values and create and adaptive value for the idle area. Perhaps that is used as a base for other calculations but without talking to the engineers or doing a lot of reverse engineering it's just speculation.

 

[Firefly]

There's no good reason that your idle speed should have gone up above 2000 rpms--- especially up to 4500 !!!!

Even if you don't disconnect the battery, the ECM will re- learn things within 200 miles- disconnecting just speeds the process up.

 

[SSL4X4]

Interesting comments. I have put almost 300 miles on the new pipes and it ran the same the whole time. I disconnected the battery and let it sit for about 30 mins before reconnecting. When I started it back up it reved and idled at the various different rpm levels. When I restarted it the second time it was right at 1500 and is much smoother now. I am not sure why this all happened I am not a mechanic but it WORKED. I am just happy to have you folks here to discuss this stuff!! Thanks Lamonster for this site!!

The discussion about the ECM/ECU whatever they call it makes sense as that is what the dealer said...the values are fixed and not able to change but if thats true why did this little trick work for me? It has a different idle sound even. Before it sounded sick and now it sounds mean!!! hyea:

I rode it for a bit today and can definitely tell a difference. After spending a grand on these pipes I was beggining to wonder if I had made an expensive mistake.

 

[Firefly]

Interesting comments. I have put almost 300 miles on the new pipes and it ran the same the whole time. I disconnected the battery and let it sit for about 30 mins before reconnecting. When I started it back up it reved and idled at the various different rpm levels. When I restarted it the second time it was right at 1500 and is much smoother now. I am not sure why this all happened I am not a mechanic but it WORKED. I am just happy to have you folks here to discuss this stuff!! Thanks Lamonster for this site!!

The discussion about the ECM/ECU whatever they call it makes sense as that is what the dealer said...the values are fixed and not able to change but if thats true why did this little trick work for me? It has a different idle sound even. Before it sounded sick and now it sounds mean!!! hyea:

I rode it for a bit today and can definitely tell a difference. After spending a grand on these pipes I was beggining to wonder if I had made an expensive mistake.

The ECU reads signals from the 02 sensor and adjusts accordingly.

There are some other options you can do to give you even more pep with your new pipes.

 

[barb36jack31]

Wow! I have just read the previous posts and I am some kind of impressed! I think it is wonderful that folks such as yourselves can understand all this . Bless you all.

Your riding buddy,

Jack

 

[powerbyaj]

Wow! I have just read the previous posts and I am some kind of impressed! I think it is wonderful that folks such as yourselves can understand all this . Bless you all.

Your riding buddy,

Jack

Yeah!! What barb36jack31 said.

 

[mjw930]

Wonder if I could remove the o2 modifier and reconnect the stock sensor now that it's been run for a couple thousand miles. Perhaps I could back into more optimum tune from the rich side:dontknow: I've been hesitant to make any changes beyond the muffler because of the current lack of tuning options. I have a bit of experience with Harley's Race Tuner, if only we had something along those lines.....

Another issue is the lack of dyno run info available. Without that, and some corresponding AFR traces, we don't even know where we're beginning from....Obviously, they're going to be running EPA lean(14.3:1range) in stock trim, so making anything beyond a muffler change is tempting fate, IMO....Don't know how much the system can compensate:dontknow:

Actually, since you've had the O2 modifier in I don't think it's been learning anything. Also, the 14.7:1 AFR should only be at places like idle and light / steady throttle / RPM. Under acceleration and high load conditions it's probably in an open loop section that isn't effected by tuning anyway.

I agree, making major changes without a way to at least read the ECM output is a gamble at best. Good luck with piggyback devices, they will only take you so far. Someone, somewhere needs to crack this ECM and get us the ability to dig into the programming like they are doing on the Buell boards with their Rotax 1125.

Then again, I suspect his motor is already at 90% to 95% of it's capabilities anyway so I think if you are really looking for more power this may not be the platform for you. I get a kick out of the guys that spend $10K on motor builds to make their "cruisers" almost as fast as an out of the box liter bike. If it's just sound then a juicebox should fill in the lean spots just fine. I wouldn't waste my time and money on some of the intake hack jobs I see for the bike, just wait for someone to make a high flow stock filter replacement and be satisfied.

 

[NancysToy]

Actually, since you've had the O2 modifier in I don't think it's been learning anything. Also, the 14.7:1 AFR should only be at places like idle and light / steady throttle / RPM. Under acceleration and high load conditions it's probably in an open loop section that isn't effected by tuning anyway.

I agree, making major changes without a way to at least read the ECM output is a gamble at best. Good luck with piggyback devices, they will only take you so far. Someone, somewhere needs to crack this ECM and get us the ability to dig into the programming like they are doing on the Buell boards with their Rotax 1125.

Then again, I suspect his motor is already at 90% to 95% of it's capabilities anyway so I think if you are really looking for more power this may not be the platform for you. I get a kick out of the guys that spend $10K on motor builds to make their "cruisers" almost as fast as an out of the box liter bike. If it's just sound then a juicebox should fill in the lean spots just fine. I wouldn't waste my time and money on some of the intake hack jobs I see for the bike, just wait for someone to make a high flow stock filter replacement and be satisfied.

Finally, a statement that makes sense. Does the phrase "Lipstick on a pig" mean anything to anyone. I don't mean to dis the Spyder or the Rotax, I love them, but there are severe limitations here, just like a four cylinder Chevy engine is not a Top Fuel motor. If you want a crotch rocket, buy a Busa.
-Scotty

 

[Roaddog2]

Finally, a statement that makes sense. Does the phrase "Lipstick on a pig" mean anything to anyone. I don't mean to dis the Spyder or the Rotax, I love them, but there are severe limitations here, just like a four cylinder Chevy engine is not a Top Fuel motor. If you want a crotch rocket, buy a Busa.
-Scotty

How bought Sharpie on a pig :agree:

 

[mjw930]

If the o2 mod is sending a 'false lean' signal to richen the mixture, wouldn't the ECU have learned this and tried to compensate? And because it continues to send the same signal, I would think the closed loop bias has reached it's maximum offset after so many miles.....The question remains though, do the changes (are they multipliers or are new VE tables created:dontknow remain confined to closed loop areas or can they be applied to open loop areas as well. Harley's closed loop system can make map changes in open loop areas, although I haven't played with that as I've taken my desired AFR's below the threshold that allows closed loop function...Once it's tuned to my liking, I KNOW it'll stay there.:doorag:

Yes, the ECM has flattened the learned portion to match the constant signal. What I meant was it hasn't learned anything regarding your particular config.

As for learning outside the closed loop area that's correct but confusing. Although the area where learned values are kept spreads between open and closed loop areas the extension isn't over a wide area. The downside is if you only have one cell in a block set to closed loop and there are 5 other cells in the block then all cells get adjusted based on that one cell's information. That can actually cause more problems then it solves.

It's all moot because we have no idea how BRP architected their ECM.

 

[mjw930]

We need Steve Cole:doorag:!!!

I dropped him a line to see if he had any interest but I haven't heard back.