"Catastrophic Engine Failure"

[Farmbanker]

You are in good hands. They are experienced with this sort of thing. They put a whole new engine in my RT after it blew up. Also a rare event but still very frustrating. I was just in there for service yesterday....

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[3tracs]

UPDATE!: More Damage Then Thought

Stopped to check on the patient today, and the problem is just what you all expected: a dropped valve.

They also found that the front piston rod is bent slightly, and a cog at the bottom had half its teeth sheared off (see the pics in the updated folder link below). I don't remember what that cog does, but it got beat up pretty bad.

2 New pictures: http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2991

It looks pretty grim... I believe in order to replace that rod, they would need to break down the entire engine, which sounds expensive. Thoughts?

They told me that BRP is very interested in what happened and my technician will be calling them and sending the pics for evaluation. I've been impressed with all the help Metro Can-Am has provided, and am also very grateful that BRP is in contact with them about my Spyder.

I'd appreciate all your thoughts onwhat to do next. I'm still hopeful for a good outcome and look forward to getting 3Tracs back on his tires!

Thanks for checking in and stay tuned!

 

[NancysToy]

Ouch again! It is beginning to look like the dropped valve was an end result, not the initial cause. For instance, skipped timing could make a piston contact a valve, which in turn breaks off the valve head. That usually bends the valve stem, but not always, especially with high compression engines when the valve is barely off its seat. The twisted connecting rod is a mystery...not a typical failure. At any rate, that engine ingested a lot of metal. I doubt you have seen the last of the hidden damage. At this point your best bet is a replacement engine. With a little luck and cooperation maybe BRP will provide the engine and you would just be responsible for the labor costs...which would be lower for replacement than for a rebuild. Of course the best scenario would be for them to pick up the entire tab, but that's a lot to hope for.

 

[Farmbanker]

I'm betting Metro is hoping BRP will help out with a different engine. When mine cratered and he saw all the metal pieces in there, the tech didnt feel comfortable that he would find every little piece. Fyi, my engine was diagnosed as timing chain failure. Dont think the valve broke off like yours did. Even if it cost a bit more, new engine would make me feel more confident.

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[wftb]

a valve can break off and drop at any time on any piston engine .they are usually flawed and pass unnoticed in the inspection process when the engine is first built . i have had 2 valves break and drop on me .you can get away with less than a total engine failure only if the stem breaks up high and the valve stays in its guide .then you will lose the piston and maybe the cylinder head but everything else is usually OK .this happened to a ford diesel i owned.my 343 v8 in a 1969 javelin was not so lucky .it broke down low at high revs and took out the con rod , crank , put a hole in the block and destroyed one cylinder head .when that valve stands up sideways , everything goes .

 

[dabreitbach]

Once that valve dropped into the cylinder it took out everything else. That valve won't compress like the fuel charge and then other things start to break down the line (rod, cylinder timing gears, ect) when that piston tries to compress that valve ( which ain't goin to happen ). That is all damage from that valve dropping.

 

[NancysToy]

Once that valve dropped into the cylinder it took out everything else. That valve won't compress like the fuel charge and then other things start to break down the line (rod, cylinder timing gears, ect) when that piston tries to compress that valve ( which ain't goin to happen ). That is all damage from that valve dropping.

Not so sure...the rod looks twisted, which would not be typical of damage from a dropped valve head. Yes, it could have bent and twisted when the piston hit the valve, but it would not be common...more often just a bent rod. The possibility of big end rod bearing damage is high when you see such a twist (look for play in the big end when twisted). The damaged timing gear (?) is more likely a cause than a sympton of a damaged valve...especially when the head snapped off cleanly. Tghe amount of piston and head damage is significant, but not as catastrophic as you would expect if there was enough mayhem to bend the rod. There is certainly more to this story. JMHO

 

[3tracs]

They told me that BRP is very interested in what happened and my technician will be calling them and sending the pics for evaluation. I've been impressed with all the help Metro Can-Am has provided, and am also very grateful that BRP is in contact with them about my Spyder.

I'd appreciate all your thoughts onwhat to do next. I'm still hopeful for a good outcome and look forward to getting 3Tracs back on his tires!

Thanks for checking in and stay tuned!

Here's another update;

BRP had asked my dealer to investigate further, which they did (see the pictures in post #1). They were told that even though my Spyder is out of warranty that were not "shutting the door" on helping out. I would have been thankful for any assistance.

Well, BRP "shut the door". My dealer called Monday to check status and was told in not so many words that none would be considered.

Now my dealer is in a pickle because they had related to me that BRP was interested in what happened, and would help, so they spent their time and money taking out the motor for diagnosis. And now, nothing.

So my question to you all is this: what could I have done to prevent this dropped valve? I have never red lined my Spyder, I've never even chirped the tire! It's my baby and has been treated as such.

I now have a $13,000 paperweight at the dealer, one that I still owe $3000 on...

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[beanoil]

IMO, YOU could not have done anything to prevent the valve breaking. Sometimes things just happen. And while I'm disappointed that BRP "shut the door", I'm not surprised. You are well past the time portion of the warranty. All that being said, I think I would have to reach out and contact BRP on my own and see if their couldn't be a reasonable compromise brought forth for both parties. I don't think you are out of options here, your mileage to failure certainly isn't the norm for these engines, but it will take some patience and detective work on your part. If the valve just plain broke, there will be telltale signs as mentioned earlier. The BUDS system will reveal if you had a light throttle hand over time, and if you have maintenance records, that would show you took care of the beast according to their maintenance schedule. All that adds up to encourage BRP help out. If you choose to rebuild, (I'm a once bitten kind of fellow) I'd contact Kibblewhite and see if they can make a set of their Black Diamond valves for you, to ensure some longevity for the second go round. A head, cylinder, valve kit, gaskets, piston, (hopefully the connecting-rod isn't tweaked) and labor would have to be weighed against a new replacement engine, or maybe a used engine from a wrecked Spyder (or maybe an Aprilia bike.. same engine different trans) as a heart donor for the transplant. Good luck to you, it sounds like the dealer has been willing to help out so far, I hope BRP rethinks their decision. That's really low miles for a catastrophic failure.

 

[ARtraveler]

I am surprised that BRP is sort of throwing you to the wolves. IMO--not a great customer service move. I say this, providing you have not abused the :spyder2: when it was in your control. As mentioned, BUDS can help determine that factor.

Catastrophic engine failures are fairly rare, and should be considered carefully by the manufacturer.

I would also recommend on discussing the issue with BRP. You seem to have a cool head about you, and that will go a long way in dealing with BRP.

Please keep us posted on how this all plays out. The Rotax engine is supposed to be good on longevity. A failure at less than 14,000 miles is way out of the ordinary.

 

[bruiser]

Hope you can work things out. Have to agree with AK on this one.

 

[DrewNJ]

Not trying to be a dick, but sorry all, I have to side with BRP on this one....Why would BRP assume ANY liability for the repair on a 5 year old machine that is almost a year out of warranty?? 14k isn't a ton of miles but it isn't "new" either. Come on now....Sure it sucks, but it isn't BRP's responsibility. The failure is just one of those things that can happen on ANYTHING mechanical we own. All of us have to assume some responsibility when we keep these machines or any other machine outside of the warranty period.

 

[Illinois Boy]

Would have to agree with DrewNJ...

 

[Bob Denman]

Both parties are in a dificult position with this:
3tracs is looking at an astronomical repair bill...
and BRP is looking at setting themselves up to cover everything that breaks on every bike... forever! :shocked:
I'm sorry to hear that you're in this miserable position; perhaps a negotiated sharing of the costs can be arranged? :dontknow:

 

[wyliec]

Not trying to be a dick, but sorry all, I have to side with BRP on this one....Why would BRP assume ANY liability for the repair on a 5 year old machine that is almost a year out of warranty?? 14k isn't a ton of miles but it isn't "new" either. Come on now....Sure it sucks, but it isn't BRP's responsibility. The failure is just one of those things that can happen on ANYTHING mechanical we own. All of us have to assume some responsibility when we keep these machines or any other machine outside of the warranty period.

I agree; but, BRP needs to be consistent with repairs out of warranty. There was a member about a year or 2 ago whose VCM (I think I have the correct terminology) needed to be replaced outside of the warranty period. BRP picked up the tab. I can't remember his name other than he was from the southwest and may still be here.

The only reason I remember was that he was still able to drive the spyder with the (supposed) faulty VCM; but, didn't have the money to have his spyder checked out to make sure what the actual problem was. At the time he wasn't sure if it was the VCM; other members had pointed him in that direction.

 

[Greenhorse]

I have been watching this one. Would have been nice if BRP did step up and do something, but then that opens the door to other out of warranty problems. I would look for a complete engine from another bike. Maybe BRP was not expecting such a complete failure.

 

[wyliec]

3tracs, here's the post............

I was looking for regarding BRP covering a part out of warranty. You can read all the posts or go to #28 & 36.


http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?45913-How-long-can-I-ride-in-Limp-Mode/page2

 

[DrewNJ]

I was looking for regarding BRP covering a part out of warranty. You can read all the posts or go to #28 & 36.


http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?45913-How-long-can-I-ride-in-Limp-Mode/page2

There are also threads about BRP replacing fender brackets outside of warranty. However, there is a big difference in absorbing bracket and vcm costs for customer relations vs absorbing the cost of an entire motor with several internal mechanical moving parts that really nobody knows the history of except the OP.

Believe me, I feel the OP's pain, but also don't feel BRP is doing anything wrong here. It's just the world we live in.


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[beanoil]

There is a Rotax 990 engine 32k miles for sale on the Aprilia RF1 website right now... 500.00 in So Cal. That would get you all the basic parts to put your ride back together.

 

[Frank G]

There are at least 2 spyder motors on E-Bay for sale. Not sure I would attempt a rebuild on your old core unless the rebuilder stood behind it, and you trust them.:dontknow:
Most motors from totaled bikes are not damaged, and a reputable salvage yard will back them. ASK before you buy, also your Credit Card may give you some purchase protection. Yes, there are MC salvage yards. Good Luck