Carlo Responds

[BajaRon]

I do not believe there is a BRP conspiracy...I believe it's another issue of complete corporate ignorance and refusal to admit something is wrong because there is a "possibility" that (short term!) corporate profits will be impacted, thus keeping the executives from getting all the "perks" they believe they are entitled to! (I know, I just ended that sentence improperly!...but you know what I mean!).

I agree that it is not a conspiracy on BRP's part. But not sure I can go with the rest of it. When a company loses money in a law suit (or any other way) it hurts more than the top guys. It can end up shutting down the entire business in a really bad situation.

There are just good ways and bad ways to handle things when taking in the full picture.

You don't pull on Super Man's cape, or spit into the wind. And you don't hand trip & fall lawyers a case against you on a silver platter. Not that there is any case to be handed.

But when a lady gets millions for spilling hot coffee on herself you can't afford to be careless. Anything can be a potential law suit these days. And even if you win it's expensive and the news coverage isn't good for business either.

In short, I'm not surprised BRP is handling the few fires this way and I don't blame them either. I think behind the scenes they are on it. They just can't go around saying so.

 

[Tom in NM]

reminded me . . .

Firefly: "Stupid caveman that invented fire should be shot!" :roflblack:

. . . . yeah, so many causes to consider.

Last year when I took my Jeep in for an oil change, the guy called me over to look at my air filter - I knew I didn't need to change it, but they always look. I was wrong. A mouse had got in there and built a nest - lots of flammable stuff.

Last week I was installing a set of NMN 4" risers and had to take the trunk off (don't ask). It was ironic, found lots of spider webs and there was bits of this and that stuck in them.

Summer time, and while "the livin' is easy" and hot - it is also when I get around 2" of Cottonwood fluff in my yard - every where. There are trucks carrying loads of hay and alfa with all sorts of stuff blowing off them onto the road.

These are all things that burn. Easily. And you don't expect them. Throw in paper, cigarettes and plastic films, well Firefly is right.

Besides the possibility of hoaxes, there is extortion, insurance fraud, criminal destruction of property - sabotage, poor maintenance practices (oily rag left on the engine after an oil change), assembly error, and the list goes on.

Those white rooms with teams of people in lab coats microscopically investigating some fragment of something found somewhere with banks of computers and laser sensors - all overseen by a quirky but incredibly knowledgeable person - - - - - uh, that is TV. Done in an hour. Not real.

Rleathen is right - sometimes you just will never know. The real world has too many combinations of conditions that can occur. As mere mortals, we just cannot know them all.

Spyder1026 has, from the very beginning, chronicled every thing that has happened surrounding his Spyder's fire. He has paid attention and been dedicated to following this to its conclusion. In his first posting on the fire, it was clear to him, the exact cause of his fire would never be determined. But as other incidences happened, he has continued to push for an answer and solution. And same goes for Bun-1.

Thanks guys, we all need to remain vigilant on this. You will never forget what happened - since it was not up-close & personal for the rest of us, we will need to be reminded. Your experiences have made me aware, and they got Firefly looking and got his potential problem fixed before something serious happened. We all need to keep looking, Thanks again.

Tom

 

[QuadManiac]

How do you know they haven't discovered it? Because Carlo said so? ..... If you think they reprogrammed the purge valve for any other reason than to prevent you and your Spyder from looking like a flaming marshmallow, I'm all ears- please tell us about it........

This is a perfect example of the reverse logic used to further conspiracy theories. The flaw is in that it is not OUR job to DISPROVE your theory... it is YOUR job to PROVE it.

Provide ANY evidence, other than conjecture, that the purge valve and associated components were cause of any of the fires and then WE'LL be all ears. Until then, this has no more credence than any other imagineable cause - an idea with no factual support.

 

[bone crusher]

This is a perfect example of the reverse logic used to further conspiracy theories. The flaw is in that it is not OUR job to DISPROVE your theory... it is YOUR job to PROVE it.

Provide ANY evidence, other than conjecture, that the purge valve and associated components were cause of any of the fires and then WE'LL be all ears. Until then, this has no more credence than any other imagineable cause - an idea with no factual support.

:agree: I think sometimes we see a group mentality here...some idea, without merit, catches on, and everyone nods their heads...

 

[Roaddog2]

Dude, this is the internet....nothing but opinion and conjecture.....I've thrown my theory out there with my reasoning for it. Until I see another theory that seems more logical to me, I'm stickin' with mine....Seeing as not even BRP is physically inspecting the incinerated Spyders, their position is nothing but conjecture, and has no credence, also........

:agree:Carlos is just a Suit (Puppet) or what ever you want to call him any advice he gives statements go through there Dream Team first :chat:

 

[aubierules]

:agree:Carlos is just a Suit (Puppet) or what ever you want to call him any advice he gives statements go through there Dream Team first :chat:

:agree:

 

[aubierules]

In short, I'm not surprised BRP is handling the few fires this way and I don't blame them either. I think behind the scenes they are on it. They just can't go around saying so.

what if your wrong and they are not on it....it could be that they know, but wont tell anyone cause it could hurt business.....see space shuttle and o ring for an example. Im not saying that this is the case, but ya never know....

 

[Just Doo Me]

Firefly: "Stupid caveman that invented fire should be shot!" :roflblack:

. . . . yeah, so many causes to consider.

Last year when I took my Jeep in for an oil change, the guy called me over to look at my air filter - I knew I didn't need to change it, but they always look. I was wrong. A mouse had got in there and built a nest - lots of flammable stuff.

Last week I was installing a set of NMN 4" risers and had to take the trunk off (don't ask). It was ironic, found lots of spider webs and there was bits of this and that stuck in them.

Summer time, and while "the livin' is easy" and hot - it is also when I get around 2" of Cottonwood fluff in my yard - every where. There are trucks carrying loads of hay and alfa with all sorts of stuff blowing off them onto the road.

These are all things that burn. Easily. And you don't expect them. Throw in paper, cigarettes and plastic films, well Firefly is right.

Besides the possibility of hoaxes, there is extortion, insurance fraud, criminal destruction of property - sabotage, poor maintenance practices (oily rag left on the engine after an oil change), assembly error, and the list goes on.

Those white rooms with teams of people in lab coats microscopically investigating some fragment of something found somewhere with banks of computers and laser sensors - all overseen by a quirky but incredibly knowledgeable person - - - - - uh, that is TV. Done in an hour. Not real.

Rleathen is right - sometimes you just will never know. The real world has too many combinations of conditions that can occur. As mere mortals, we just cannot know them all.

Spyder1026 has, from the very beginning, chronicled every thing that has happened surrounding his Spyder's fire. He has paid attention and been dedicated to following this to its conclusion. In his first posting on the fire, it was clear to him, the exact cause of his fire would never be determined. But as other incidences happened, he has continued to push for an answer and solution. And same goes for Bun-1.

Thanks guys, we all need to remain vigilant on this. You will never forget what happened - since it was not up-close & personal for the rest of us, we will need to be reminded. Your experiences have made me aware, and they got Firefly looking and got his potential problem fixed before something serious happened. We all need to keep looking, Thanks again.

Tom

Very well put!! :2thumbs: :agree: Now back to the conjecture:chat:

 

[bone crusher]

Kinda' like disconnecting your battery after the software update, huh?

I'd consider that a lot safer than performing surgery on the bike...

As far as the battery disconnect goes...just a little preventative action...like when installing the hindle...let the ECU map the changes...

Battery disconnect no harm...other things may be harmful...

 

[QuadManiac]

Dude, this is the internet....nothing but opinion and conjecture.....I've thrown my theory out there with my reasoning for it. Until I see another theory that seems more logical to me, I'm stickin' with mine....Seeing as not even BRP is physically inspecting the incinerated Spyders, their position is nothing but conjecture, and has no credence, also........

Absolutely, HDX... I'm not trying to squash your ability to throw out a theory, just using the same rights to add my opinion as to its lack of fact.

We do not know what BRP has done relative to these Spyders, we have no facts. BUT if they have not performed due diligence relative to the fires they are very foolish and I suspect their large legal division (which I'm sure they have) would not allow it. If they have uncovered anything 'sinister', now is the time to take care of it, before there's been any loss of life or limb. The moment a serious injury occurs and it IS shown that they didn't take care of a known problem, their legal troubles will be immense. Their legal team has kept on top of this, one must suspect. Future lawsuits that might uncover a lack of said due diligence would be devastating to thier case and be very costly to the company. Assuming they have a legal division, this just does not seem likely.

Following Ockham's Razor, I believe it is MUCH more likely that BRP has investigated, found no common cause and has performed their due dilligence - than the possibility that they are somehow 'covering up' the issue to protect themselves - I'm sure that there are product liability class action attorneys just drooling at the hope that the latter is correct; and BRP knows that. (BTW, I was married to an attorney for 20 years, does my bias show?)

 

[QuadManiac]

Okay. I won't say that some of you argument doesn't make sense; just that, IMO, it will be overcome by fact in the end. These are individual opinions, afterall; neither of us has more than a tiny bit of the whole story.

And, no, I don't think that BRP is looking out for me... I think they're looking out for themselves, especially from a legal standpoint.
How bout we agree to disagree, and the truth will come out in time, either way? :cheers:

 

[bun-1]

I don't recall using 'sinister' or 'cover-up' at all.......People that have actually experienced the fires have told us that BRP has not investigated their machines......How is that 'due diligence'?...... Here's the 'facts'.......
1. Some folks were complaining of fuel smells
2. Several Spyders have inexplicably erupted into flames
3. BRP piggybacked a 'secret' purge valve reprogram in with a mandatory steering download
4. After many complaints, BRP admitted to a purge valve reprogram...
5. BRP has stated that the new 'poor performance' is due to your aftermarket accessories....
6. BRP says the are working on a new patch to improve rideability...
7. I haven't heard of any new fires since most all have gotten the download.....


If you want to have blind faith that BRP is in your corner, that's your prerogative. I think BRP is looking out for BRP.......If they found a way to package some damage control along with something else, and not have to admit it, I think that's exactly what they'd do.........

may i throw my 2cents in? Ok my bikie burned @ the dealer but was saved. All BRP investigated was seven pictures that the dealer took. Upon completion of their investigation BRP didn't take any blame but offered to fix my bike. Now what does that tell you guys? Now as far as the sneaky purge valve fix in my opinion they must have thought it was a possibility or had already confirmed it before the fires begun to spread. That's the reason they are no longer concerned with future fires. I asked BRP for a new bike and they refused, but they want me to take my two month old burnt bike bike without a cause of the fire. I think that is ridiculious because I can't resell the bike and get a reasonable amount due to the fact that it is fire damaged and I don't think that it is safe to get back on. I'm personally dissappointed in BRP because my spyder was my way to enjoy riding again, can't ride two wheels any more.

 

[WaltH]

may i throw my 2cents in? Ok my bikie burned @ the dealer but was saved. All BRP investigated was seven pictures that the dealer took. Upon completion of their investigation BRP didn't take any blame but offered to fix my bike. Now what does that tell you guys? Now as far as the sneaky purge valve fix in my opinion they must have thought it was a possibility or had already confirmed it before the fires begun to spread. That's the reason they are no longer concerned with future fires. I asked BRP for a new bike and they refused, but they want me to take my two month old burnt bike bike without a cause of the fire. I think that is ridiculious because I can't resell the bike and get a reasonable amount due to the fact that it is fire damaged and I don't think that it is safe to get back on. I'm personally dissappointed in BRP because my spyder was my way to enjoy riding again, can't ride two wheels any more.

If they do a good job of repairing your Spyder, it will no long be fire damaged. They should be able to make your Spyder look like brand new. You don't have to sell it and take a loss.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to do the canisterectomy, install a crankcase breather catch can, and be careful about how you fill the gas tank. I have done these things and I no longer feel it is necessary to carry fire extinguishers in the front compartment. These steps go a long way toward making you safer.

I agree with those who say BRP is not going to acknowledge any responsibility for the fires, any time soon. Because the victims of the fires did not report them to the NHTSA (only 3 reported?), BRP will not be compelled to take official action. That's not to say they are not working on the problem, and may have already solved it. They are not talking. They cannot tell us (officially or unofficially) to do a canisterectomy, although they probably would like to do so.

I won't feel completely comfortable, or "normal", until we have gone a couple of years with no fires. I don't have the time to wait for this. I need to ride now (age 72). If there is a fire in a Spyder which has had a canisterectomy, I will go back to carrying fire extinguihers.

Look at it this way. With my two Spyders together, I have ridden 55,000 miles and only had one fire.:2thumbs:

 

[bone crusher]

If they do a good job of repairing your Spyder, it will no long be fire damaged. They should be able to make your Spyder look like brand new. You don't have to sell it and take a loss.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to do the canisterectomy, install a crankcase breather catch can, and be careful about how you fill the gas tank. I have done these things and I no longer feel it is necessary to carry fire extinguishers in the front compartment. These steps go a long way toward making you safer.

I agree with those who say BRP is not going to acknowledge any responsibility for the fires, any time soon. Because the victims of the fires did not report them to the NHTSA (only 3 reported?), BRP will not be compelled to take official action. That's not to say they are not working on the problem, and may have already solved it. They are not talking. They cannot tell us (officially or unofficially) to do a canisterectomy, although they probably would like to do so.

I won't feel completely comfortable, or "normal", until we have gone a couple of years with no fires. I don't have the time to wait for this. I need to ride now (age 72). If there is a fire in a Spyder which has had a canisterectomy, I will go back to carrying fire extinguihers.

Look at it this way. With my two Spyders together, I have ridden 55,000 miles and only had one fire.:2thumbs:

There is no proof that the canisterectomy will prevent fires as no cause has been determined yet...people doing their own thing is based on speculation...we have to remember that the earlier bikes didn't have the wire/line coating that the later models have...in addition, there are also subtle differences as the bike has been maturing and BRP has been figuring out new things. Your advice to do it is obviously your personal opinion...however, it might be completely unnecessary and who knows...it could lead to other problems...

I'm not a fan of removing parts from the bike because if you do then have a problem, BRP will likely void your warranty...and they'd be correct to do so.

We both know there are a lot of bright people here who have good ideas about how the fires (few that they are) MIGHT be caused...however, it is really only speculation at this time...for that matter, we don't even know how many actual fires there have been and what other factors played in...only 2 or 3 have been reported and that's all we can go by.

As far as BRP investigating vs. the NHTSA, that's an interesting topic. Technically, the NHTSA would have to do the investigation...there simply isn't enough of a problem right now to warrant that....the statistical chance of a fire is significantly below the risk of you having an accident on your bike...being this is the case, I wouldn't worry about the fires too much at this time...

 

[WaltH]

There is no proof that the canisterectomy will prevent fires as no cause has been determined yet...people doing their own thing is based on speculation...we have to remember that the earlier bikes didn't have the wire/line coating that the later models have...in addition, there are also subtle differences as the bike has been maturing and BRP has been figuring out new things. Your advice to do it is obviously your personal opinion...however, it might be completely unnecessary and who knows...it could lead to other problems...

I'm not a fan of removing parts from the bike because if you do then have a problem, BRP will likely void your warranty...and they'd be correct to do so.

We both know there are a lot of bright people here who have good ideas about how the fires (few that they are) MIGHT be caused...however, it is really only speculation at this time...for that matter, we don't even know how many actual fires there have been and what other factors played in...only 2 or 3 have been reported and that's all we can go by.

As far as BRP investigating vs. the NHTSA, that's an interesting topic. Technically, the NHTSA would have to do the investigation...there simply isn't enough of a problem right now to warrant that....the statistical chance of a fire is significantly below the risk of you having an accident on your bike...being this is the case, I wouldn't worry about the fires too much at this time...

I am not willing to wait for proof which will never come. There can be no proof for the first seven fires because no investigations were conducted, and in my case the damage was so complete there was nothing left to inspect. I must make prudent decisions based on the best information now available. I have always said we will never know for certain what caused my fire. I am willing to leave that in the past. Now, I must do what I can to improve the chances that Spyder#2 will not suffer the same fate. Some call it speculation, but I call it making a prudent decision based on imperfect information. We do this all the time in all areas of our life.

Removing the canister is prudent. It cannot void the warranty in unrelated areas and it is easily reversed. I have had a lot of motorcycles and none, other than the Spyder, has ever had a canister. I am totally comfortable with removing the canister. As far as I am concerned it is the #1 suspect. I would like to know what BRP thinks, but I don't expect to ever find out.

We know so much more now than we did when my fire occurred. Nevertheless, we should not wait for perfect information before we do anything.

 

[bun-1]

If they do a good job of repairing your Spyder, it will no long be fire damaged. They should be able to make your Spyder look like brand new. You don't have to sell it and take a loss.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to do the canisterectomy, install a crankcase breather catch can, and be careful about how you fill the gas tank. I have done these things and I no longer feel it is necessary to carry fire extinguishers in the front compartment. These steps go a long way toward making you safer.

I agree with those who say BRP is not going to acknowledge any responsibility for the fires, any time soon. Because the victims of the fires did not report them to the NHTSA (only 3 reported?), BRP will not be compelled to take official action. That's not to say they are not working on the problem, and may have already solved it. They are not talking. They cannot tell us (officially or unofficially) to do a canisterectomy, although they probably would like to do so.

I won't feel completely comfortable, or "normal", until we have gone a couple of years with no fires. I don't have the time to wait for this. I need to ride now (age 72). If there is a fire in a Spyder which has had a canisterectomy, I will go back to carrying fire extinguihers.

Look at it this way. With my two Spyders together, I have ridden 55,000 miles and only had one fire.:2thumbs:

it's easy for you to say to it back because yours was a total loss and you got a new one. nevertheless, i don't think there is anything that i should have to do to make a new bike safe(remove canister). if they were smart they would have address the fire issue prior to releasing the 2010 rt therefore current and potential customers wouldn't be skeptical about a pricer spyder burning. but back to the let um' fix it idea... can anyone out there tell me what they are going to fix which caused the fire? if so go ahead i'll wait. but until then i think it is in my best interest not to ride it. and on another note i bought a brand new 09; not a slightly burnt 09. if they feel that it would be good as new they could use it as a demo. but why burn potential customers before you rob them.

look at it like this i've had 1 spyder with less than 1800 miles and i'm batting a thousand, aint that a b*cth.

 

[aubierules]

there simply isn't enough of a problem right now to warrant that....the statistical chance of a fire is significantly below the risk of you having an accident on your bike...being this is the case, I wouldn't worry about the fires too much at this time...

let me know how you feel if, and I pray you are not, one of the unfortunate statistical anomalies that do catch fire...

 

[BajaRon]

I am not willing to wait for proof which will never come. There can be no proof for the first seven fires because no investigations were conducted, and in my case the damage was so complete there was nothing left to inspect. I must make prudent decisions based on the best information now available. I have always said we will never know for certain what caused my fire. I am willing to leave that in the past. Now, I must do what I can to improve the chances that Spyder#2 will not suffer the same fate. Some call it speculation, but I call it making a prudent decision based on imperfect information. We do this all the time in all areas of our life.

Removing the canister is prudent. It cannot void the warranty in unrelated areas and it is easily reversed. I have had a lot of motorcycles and none, other than the Spyder, has ever had a canister. I am totally comfortable with removing the canister. As far as I am concerned it is the #1 suspect. I would like to know what BRP thinks, but I don't expect to ever find out.

We know so much more now than we did when my fire occurred. Nevertheless, we should not wait for perfect information before we do anything.

Well stated! :agree:

We can either live our lives based on the 10~12 thousand fire free Spyders out there or we can wring our hands and live based on the 5~7 fires.

I like plan 1 and I see that is your choice as well.

Everyone seems to think we should be guaranteed an accident free, problem free, fire free existence while relying on an outside agent to provide this. Whether it be government, product manufacturer or whatever.

What happened to the American spirit of taking care of things ourselves?

Your approach is commendable. Taking the canister off has no downside and 100% upside. It is easy to do, doesn't cost anything, and can be returned to original configuration just as easily and cost free.

The worst that this modification can do is nothing at all, other than upset an environmentalist or 2 (well maybe all of them). And it has the potential to make the Spyder run better and maybe even reduce the possibility of fire.

To me this is found in the dictionary under "No Brainer"

My feeling is that BRP really does not know for sure what has caused these fires. But like us, they probably have their suspicions. And I think they are addressing these within the requirements of the law and sound legal counsel.

I also think BRP would love to jetison the evap tank if they could. But they can't and they can't even suggest that we do it. Has noting to do with warrany, engine longevity or anything else except EPA law.

The evap tank is a production of environmentalists and trial lawyers, not power plant engineers (ok they designed it but you know what I mean).

I understand and completely agree that we need to hold BRP responsible for imperfections in the Spyder. But we didn't get to be the greatest nation in the world by waiting for someone else to take care of things we can fix ourselves.

I commend you for your thoughtful, reasoned approach.

Enjoy what you have or fix it so you can enjoy what you have.

 

[Tom in NM]

WHY am I always agreeing with Ron?

Well stated! :agree:

Everyone seems to think we should be guaranteed an accident free, problem free, fire free existence while relying on an outside agent to provide this. Whether it be government, product manufacturer or whatever.

:agree: with everything, Very Much.

There are no guarantees, other than the true friends we make.
(even then, it helps to keep a lot of beer on hand)

Tom

 

[Roaddog2]

Kinda' like disconnecting your battery after the software update, huh?

:roflblack::roflblack::roflblack: