Carlo Responds

[WaltH]

Carlo called today in response to my inquiry regarding the change in part numbers for the rear wheel bearings. My curiosity on this subject is probably not shared by any other living person. I wanted to know what prompted the change. Carlo’s answer was that he did not know. However, he did say the specifications were the same, the vendor was the same, and “yes” they are still made in China. I have ordered a set of the “new bearings” which should arrive shortly. I will report on this at a later date.

In my email I ask about any change in functionality of the “cluster” caused by the recent software update. Carlo said the only change was the addition of an inactive fault code for the DPS in what is read out on the screen. My understanding is that other than this code, only active codes are available onboard.

Since I had the opportunity, I ask Carlo about the status of the investigation of the Spyder fires. He said that with respect to the fires which have already occurred the investigation is completed (case closed). Future fires will be reviewed at that time.

As I understand what he said, the conclusions of the investigation are as follows: There are no defects in the Spyder which could cause a fire. Since there are no defects, nothing needs to be changed. Since nothing needs to be changed, there will be no recall, and no recommendations will be made for the owners to do anything.

Carlo said “it was only a few fires”. In the context of our conversation, the implication was that going forward we could expect to lose some Spyders due to fires of unknown origin. However, he did not explicitly express the thought in this way. To continue to have fires of unknown origin will not be tolerable, if there is loss of human life.

I have been a strong supporter of BRP, and I feel they do much that is commendable, however, with respect to the issue of the fires I think they are making a big mistake. It is not reasonable to expect the fires to cease unless their origin is discovered and appropriate changes are made, no matter what those changes may be.

 

[QuadManiac]

It is not reasonable to expect the fires to cease unless their origin is discovered and appropriate changes are made, no matter what those changes may be.

Unfortunately, it is not unreasonable to expect a small percentage of fires to occur in ANY motorcycle, auto, bus, truck, boat or airplane due to random failure. In a single vehicular example (Spyder, for instance) if there is no correlation between the cause of fires among the multiple cases and none of the individual causes can be related to a systemic defect in design or manufacture, what do you expect BRP (or any manufacturer) to do? They've investigated and found no systemic, correlating cause, I assume. (or conspiracy nuts will claim cover up). If, for example, the required 'change, no matter what' involves eliminating gasoline from any proximity to an internal combustion engine or other heat sources, we'll be pedaling down the road if we follow your edict.

I'm not losing any sleep over the miniscule statistics of fire issues.

 

[DynamoBT]

Carlo also called me today in response to an e-mail I sent expressing my concern about the fires. Unfortunately, I was not home at the time and the call went to our answering machine.

Basically he said that yes, BRP knew of the fires and investigated those fires reported to them. They have concern for the safety of the spyder and the riding public. They would report and act in the safety of all if BRP found a common cause and something they could do. They found nothing that needed to be fixed. I was thanked for my concern and the time I took to write the e-mail. I was given a phone number to call if I wanted to speek with Carlo in person. (don't have it at hand)

For now, I think I'm more concerned that they create an update to the Update. Though now that it's cooler I don't think my Spyder will demonstrate the hesitations it did when it was hot out. I have been unable to get out on it for a few days. But this is what I expect.

 

[bone crusher]

Unfortunately, it is not unreasonable to expect a small percentage of fires to occur in ANY motorcycle, auto, bus, truck, boat or airplane due to random failure. In a single vehicular example (Spyder, for instance) if there is no correlation between the cause of fires among the multiple cases and none of the individual causes can be related to a systemic defect in design or manufacture, what do you expect BRP (or any manufacturer) to do? They've investigated and found no systemic, correlating cause, I assume. (or conspiracy nuts will claim cover up). If, for example, the required 'change, no matter what' involves eliminating gasoline from any proximity to an internal combustion engine or other heat sources, we'll be pedaling down the road if we follow your edict.

I'm not losing any sleep over the miniscule statistics of fire issues.

:agree: Statistically insignificant and if they're not reported, unfortunately, they don't count to those who make the decisions...if BRP has seen a few and there is no single cause of a fire, who knows what the problem(s) could be...I'm sure BRP has no interest in mis-firing on this...if there was a pattern or a problem, we'd hear about it...as we did with the steering...

 

[bone crusher]

Carlo called today in response to my inquiry regarding the change in part numbers for the rear wheel bearings. My curiosity on this subject is probably not shared by any other living person. I wanted to know what prompted the change. Carlo’s answer was that he did not know. However, he did say the specifications were the same, the vendor was the same, and “yes” they are still made in China. I have ordered a set of the “new bearings” which should arrive shortly. I will report on this at a later date.

In my email I ask about any change in functionality of the “cluster” caused by the recent software update. Carlo said the only change was the addition of an inactive fault code for the DPS in what is read out on the screen. My understanding is that other than this code, only active codes are available onboard.

Since I had the opportunity, I ask Carlo about the status of the investigation of the Spyder fires. He said that with respect to the fires which have already occurred the investigation is completed (case closed). Future fires will be reviewed at that time.

As I understand what he said, the conclusions of the investigation are as follows: There are no defects in the Spyder which could cause a fire. Since there are no defects, nothing needs to be changed. Since nothing needs to be changed, there will be no recall, and no recommendations will be made for the owners to do anything.

Carlo said “it was only a few fires”. In the context of our conversation, the implication was that going forward we could expect to lose some Spyders due to fires of unknown origin. However, he did not explicitly express the thought in this way. To continue to have fires of unknown origin will not be tolerable, if there is loss of human life.

I have been a strong supporter of BRP, and I feel they do much that is commendable, however, with respect to the issue of the fires I think they are making a big mistake. It is not reasonable to expect the fires to cease unless their origin is discovered and appropriate changes are made, no matter what those changes may be.

Thank you for following through...good information...

 

[BajaRon]

Carlo (or anyone else at BRP) isn't going to say or commit to anything regarding the fires. It would be extremley foolish of them to do so.

There is most certainly a BRP memo to all employees that have customer interface as to exactly what to say (and maybe what not to say).

BRP could be making changes to systems right now on the assembly line to address possible fire causes. But they aren't going to say so, nor are they going to be described in that way.

If they ever have to go to court they don't need a paper trail saying we changed this because we thought it might possibly be the reason for one of more of the fires.

They may even put out a service bulletin or 2 to upgrade this or that. But it won't say it is to prevent fires.

Corporations do not willingly subject themselves to multi-millioin dollar law suits.

 

[Firefly]

As far as BRP is concerned there have only been 2 actual fires and 1 'possible' fire because someone saw smoke coming out- but never saw fire.

These are the only 3 'fires' that have been reported to the NHTSA. Any other fires that BRP has heard about from us or dealers are not registered ---therefore they didn't happen.

For all BRP knows - they were started by the owners, or are just internet hoaxes.

This is what happens when owners fail to follow through and file proper reports. If all 7 that we know of had been reported properly, there would have been more investigaton because the NHTSA would have pressed them.

I'm still believing that the fires had to do with either the rubbing fuel line or the stupid evap canister.

Wrap the fuel line and yank the can!

 

[BillGargan]

Unfortunately, it is not unreasonable to expect a small percentage of fires to occur in ANY motorcycle, auto, bus, truck, boat or airplane due to random failure. In a single vehicular example (Spyder, for instance) if there is no correlation between the cause of fires among the multiple cases and none of the individual causes can be related to a systemic defect in design or manufacture, what do you expect BRP (or any manufacturer) to do? They've investigated and found no systemic, correlating cause, I assume. (or conspiracy nuts will claim cover up). If, for example, the required 'change, no matter what' involves eliminating gasoline from any proximity to an internal combustion engine or other heat sources, we'll be pedaling down the road if we follow your edict.

I'm not losing any sleep over the miniscule statistics of fire issues.

:2thumbs: Thanks! Well said! I wholeheartedly agree! :2thumbs:

 

[BillGargan]

Carlo (or anyone else at BRP) isn't going to say or commit to anything regarding the fires. It would be extremley foolish of them to do so.

There is most certainly a BRP memo to all employees that have customer interface as to exactly what to say (and maybe what not to say).

BRP could be making changes to systems right now on the assembly line to address possible fire causes. But they aren't going to say so, nor are they going to be described in that way.

If they ever have to go to court they don't need a paper trail saying we changed this because we thought it might possibly be the reason for one of more of the fires.

They may even put out a service bulletin or 2 to upgrade this or that. But it won't say it is to prevent fires.

Corporations do not willingly subject themselves to multi-millioin dollar law suits.

Nor do they willingly ignore things that will devastate their future ability to sell their product. If there is a defect that is causing this -- and they have not discovered it after substantial due-diligence -- then they are doing the best thing for their business by saying there is no known cause that they have control over.

If you think there is a BRP conspiracy you should sell your Spider as fast as you possibly can. Personally, I do not believe there is.

 

[Lamonster]

How do you know they haven't discovered it? Because Carlo said so? Perhaps they're just not admitting they've discovered something.....Have you heard about any fires since the "secret " purge valve reprogramming that was buried in a STEERING download? Me neither. Coincidence? I think not........

If you think they reprogrammed the purge valve for any other reason than to prevent you and your Spyder from looking like a flaming marshmallow, I'm all ears- please tell us about it......

I don't think of it as a 'conspiracy', but I doubt BRP would willingly leave themselves open to liability issues..........

The problem I have with that is why were all the fires within a couple of months of each other and why so late in the game?

The Spyder has been out for quite some time now and it was only recently that we heard of any fires. I don't think the fact that we don't hear about them now has anything to do with the upgrade, if that was the case we would have been hearing about fires since day one. I think the evap thing was to try and get rid of the fumes that some folks were smelling.

 

[BRPjunkie]

The problem I have with that is why were all the fires within a couple of months of each other and why so late in the game?

The Spyder has been out for quite some time now and it was only recently that we heard of any fires. I don't think the fact that we don't hear about them now has anything to do with the upgrade, if that was the case we would have been hearing about fires since day one. I think the evap thing was to try and get rid of the fumes that some folks were smelling.

:agree:Spyder DPS recall was announced weeks before rash of fires were reported in July. Recall patch was well underway and the purge valve part was to deal with gas vapor issue which was a problem for many from the beginning. For BRP to try to hastily put in place a patch to deal with fires that had not even been investigated would not have made sense.

 

[Some Guy]

I do not believe there is a BRP conspiracy...I believe it's another issue of complete corporate ignorance and refusal to admit something is wrong because there is a "possibility" that (short term!) corporate profits will be impacted, thus keeping the executives from getting all the "perks" they believe they are entitled to! (I know, I just ended that sentence improperly!...but you know what I mean!).

Once Honda and the others catch on and develop a "reverse trike" BRP will be seriously hurting with their street bikes. The other manufacturers are far more aware of the importance of customer service a.k.a...not pressuring dealers to carry too many over priced quads in order to keep their Spyder dealerships and not flat out ignoring complaints and lying to their customers!

I love my Spyder, but it will be gone when Honda or another proven and responsive manufacturer copies and IMPROVES on this great idea. It's in the cards...it will happen...just look at the American auto industry...when the public PERCEIVED the quality to be inferior, they started buying elsewhere. To paraphrase the old historian "those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it".

Think about this before you start flaming me. I grew up in Michigan and saw the corporate ignorance that drove our state to where it is now.

 

[bone crusher]

I do not believe there is a BRP conspiracy...I believe it's another issue of complete corporate ignorance and refusal to admit something is wrong because there is a "possibility" that (short term!) corporate profits will be impacted, thus keeping the executives from getting all the "perks" they believe they are entitled to! (I know, I just ended that sentence improperly!...but you know what I mean!).

Once Honda and the others catch on and develop a "reverse trike" BRP will be seriously hurting with their street bikes. The other manufacturers are far more aware of the importance of customer service a.k.a...not pressuring dealers to carry too many over priced quads in order to keep their Spyder dealerships and not flat out ignoring complaints and lying to their customers!

I love my Spyder, but it will be gone when Honda or another proven and responsive manufacturer copies and IMPROVES on this great idea. It's in the cards...it will happen...just look at the American auto industry...when the public PERCEIVED the quality to be inferior, they started buying elsewhere. To paraphrase the old historian "those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it".

Think about this before you start flaming me. I grew up in Michigan and saw the corporate ignorance that drove our state to where it is now.

I'm not sure that BRP is pressuring dealerships like you've stated...my dealership is teensy weensy and they say they never get pressure from BRP...they also sell Honda and other brands... I think one person said that about BRP but we cannot confirm that...

As far as Honda and customer service, no argument there...they are a well oiled machine of a company...

 

[bun-1]

Carlo also called me today in response to an e-mail I sent expressing my concern about the fires. Unfortunately, I was not home at the time and the call went to our answering machine.

Basically he said that yes, BRP knew of the fires and investigated those fires reported to them. They have concern for the safety of the spyder and the riding public. They would report and act in the safety of all if BRP found a common cause and something they could do. They found nothing that needed to be fixed. I was thanked for my concern and the time I took to write the e-mail. I was given a phone number to call if I wanted to speek with Carlo in person. (don't have it at hand)

For now, I think I'm more concerned that they create an update to the Update. Though now that it's cooler I don't think my Spyder will demonstrate the hesitations it did when it was hot out. I have been unable to get out on it for a few days. But this is what I expect.

how can one investigate anything from pictures only. I took pictures of my bike about a week after it burned and the only investigation that took place is about seven pictures that the dealer took which I posted. If none of us (about 3000 on site) could tell from pictures how the hell can BRP. If any of you did notice the only thing the dealer disassembled was the plastics. So for those of you that think that the fire issue has been investigated you might want to think twice. Its very funny to me how Brp could just brush the issue off, aren't they aware that we have enabled riders that also ride.

Oh yeah, I also email Carlo about the fires but my phone haven't rang yet.:dontknow:

 

[rleathen]

I have been a strong supporter of BRP, and I feel they do much that is commendable, however, with respect to the issue of the fires I think they are making a big mistake. It is not reasonable to expect the fires to cease unless their origin is discovered and appropriate changes are made, no matter what those changes may be.

OK here goes and I appologize in advance if I offend anybody. Being in the line of work that I am (firefighter) I have to tell you that not every fire (vehicle or structure or anthing else for that matter) has a cause determined. In many cases the cause is just stated as "undetermined". To expect that every single fire that occurs will have an absolute cause determined is unrealistic. In more basic terms it is not reasonable to expect the fires cause to be determined every time.

 

[Some Guy]

I'm not sure that BRP is pressuring dealerships like you've stated...my dealership is teensy weensy and they say they never get pressure from BRP.

There are MANY posts on this site about how BRP has pulled their Spyders (and revoked tech support) because the dealerships would not (and/or could not) carry more of their overpriced quads. My dealer only carries a few quads because they can not afford to keep the inventory...so, Spyder buyers like me have to wait for them to be ordered and shipped.

How does that equate with good customer service??? :dontknow:

 

[Firefly]

I do not believe there is a BRP conspiracy...I believe it's another issue of complete corporate ignorance and refusal to admit something is wrong because there is a "possibility" that (short term!) corporate profits will be impacted, thus keeping the executives from getting all the "perks" they believe they are entitled to! (I know, I just ended that sentence improperly!...but you know what I mean!).

Once Honda and the others catch on and develop a "reverse trike" BRP will be seriously hurting with their street bikes. The other manufacturers are far more aware of the importance of customer service a.k.a...not pressuring dealers to carry too many over priced quads in order to keep their Spyder dealerships and not flat out ignoring complaints and lying to their customers!

I love my Spyder, but it will be gone when Honda or another proven and responsive manufacturer copies and IMPROVES on this great idea. It's in the cards...it will happen...just look at the American auto industry...when the public PERCEIVED the quality to be inferior, they started buying elsewhere. To paraphrase the old historian "those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it".

Think about this before you start flaming me. I grew up in Michigan and saw the corporate ignorance that drove our state to where it is now.

I basically agree with you here--- other than I don't think Honda is impervious to pressuring their dealers. ALL new Honda dealers can sell ONLY Honda products---- no more selling multiple brands side by side.

They are grandfathering in dealers that currently sell other brands--- at least for now.

 

[Firefly]

OK here goes and I appologize in advance if I offend anybody. Being in the line of work that I am (firefighter) I have to tell you that not every fire (vehicle or structure or anthing else for that matter) has a cause determined. In many cases the cause is just stated as "undetermined". To expect that every single fire that occurs will have an absolute cause determined is unrealistic. In more basic terms it is not reasonable to expect the fires cause to be determined every time.

Yup---- we may never know.

Stupid caveman that invented fire should be shot!

 

[Firefly]

My take is the purge update was done for the fumes--- and only the fumes. Maybe there is a relationship between the fumes and the fires--- but that isn't why BRP made the change.

BRP had a recall 2 years ago on some sleds because of a possible fire hazard---- the fuel lines were rubbing against the engine head.

We know that many early models didn't have the fuel lines wrapped - and now they are wrapped.

They won't break down, ship the burnt spyders to their R/D lab and tear them apart at great cost without the NHTSA making them do so.

I'm not nearly as concerned as I once was about this--- especially since I wrapped the lines and cut the can!

Ride and enjoy.... the real dangers are those cagers out on the road!

 

[Some Guy]

Ride and enjoy.... the real dangers are those cagers out on the road!

:agree: :thumbup: