Can-Am Service Manual - '23 F3-S Not super inclusive.

[broderp]

I am reviewing the Service Manual I purchased. Does BRP make a lot of running changes or are they just bad at updating manuals?

This is can be frustrating as I expect the OEM service manual to be accurate and make decisions based on the information provided.

Example: The F3-S does have Bluetooth and can physically connect a cell phone to either a USB port and/or 3.5 jack that is in the frunk. The wiring diagrams do not show this. The harness information and images do not show this. To see these connections you have to go to the F3-T and F3 Limited diagrams and images.

So this begs several questions on this one issue:

Does the F3-S share the same harness and the F3-T? Is it something unique and not documented? Kinda hard to "hack" the system if I'm not 100% sure of how it's suppose to be.

I'm making assumptions because the cluster part numbers are the same that the one in my F3-S could technically accommodate the F3-T harness. It also appears that the USM and 3.5 might be a separate cable with it's own plug into the rear of the harness.


Done ranting for now...:yes:

 

[EdMat]

As you have observed, the BRP manuals seem to take for granted that you already know the machine inside out and only will be used as a reference, not an actual explanation of what is what or in most cases a "how to".

I can't offer any help on your current problem, but, if you need to access a particular item, or to install an item you can sometimes get much better info by looking for the part or something in the general area of the part on their website to see if there are installation instructions. They tend to give mush better detail than the manual.

Good luck on your project.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I am reviewing the Service Manual I purchased. Does BRP make a lot of running changes or are they just bad at updating manuals?
....
Done ranting for now...:yes:

No, you've got this bit all wrong broderp!! :gaah:

Here, I'll fix it for you:

BRP DOES make a lot of running changes AND they're just BLOODY AWFUL at updating manuals!

There, that's a much more realistic statement about BRP & their manuals now, especially when it comes to Spyder/Ryker manuals! :thumbup:

Only don't think you're the first (or likely to be the last! ) to notice this - have a look back thru the existing threads on the Forum, and you'll see that it's been a problem pretty much since Spyders first hit the streets!!:gaah: AND the text/narrative is often made worse by their attempts at Canadian French/English translation too (or lack there-off! )!! :yikes:

But it seems they just don't care - or possibly are actively doing this on order to STOP or at least discourage people from even attempting to do their own work &/or 'hack' their systems! :bdh:

Just Sayin' :cheers:

 

[broderp]

As you have observed, the BRP manuals seem to take for granted that you already know the machine inside out and only will be used as a reference, not an actual explanation of what is what or in most cases a "how to".

I can't offer any help on your current problem, but, if you need to access a particular item, or to install an item you can sometimes get much better info by looking for the part or something in the general area of the part on their website to see if there are installation instructions. They tend to give mush better detail than the manual.

Good luck on your project.

What I'm going to do will not be Can-Am approved. One of my "projects" is to make the Volume Rocker Switch work. To do this, I will need to know

• What kind of signal it is. (CAN BUS)
• What Models this switch actually works on (??)
• What external components are needed for functionality? (Harness? Amplifier? Gauge Cluster?)
• The technical layout of the circuit.
• Etc.

So in this one case, having accurate information is somewhat important. Assumptions are bad. What I do know is:

• The only analog signals in the Left Switch Housing are the High Beam switch and the Horn Button.
• The Cruise Control Switch sends signals to the Left Switch Housing to be then forwarded thru the Can Bus
• Apparently the F3, F3-S, F3-T and F3-Limited, RT- LIMITED all share the same Gauge Cluster and Left Switch Housing.

Unless this switch doesn't work on ANY Spyder, then there has to be something unique on the units with the working switch.

Best case, the switch is not attached to anything, and the joystick is just a low pulse to the can bus.. If the switch can be tied into the same joystick signal for up and down function then it may work.... Or maybe its a programming thing to enable it...

I am reviewing the Service Manual I purchased. Does BRP make a lot of running changes or are they just bad at updating manuals?
....
Done ranting for now...:yes:

No, you've got this bit all wrong broderp!! :gaah:

Here, I'll fix it for you:

BRP DOES make a lot of running changes AND they're just BLOODY AWFUL at updating manuals!

There, that's a much more realistic statement about BRP & their manuals now, especially when it comes to Spyder/Ryker manuals! :thumbup:

Only don't think you're the first (or likely to be the last! ) to notice this - have a look back thru the existing threads on the Forum, and you'll see that it's been a problem pretty much since Spyders first hit the streets!!:gaah: AND the text/narrative is often made worse by their attempts at Canadian French/English translation too (or lack there-off! )!! :yikes:

But it seems they just don't care - or possibly are actively doing this on order to STOP or at least discourage people from even attempting to do their own work &/or 'hack' their systems! :bdh:

Just Sayin' :cheers:

I think you are 100% right!

 

[BertRemington]

One of my "projects" is to make the Volume Rocker Switch work.

I'm not understanding this. What do you want the switch to do?

Be that as it may, the LHS/MSL puts out a 340h CANBUS message at 10Hz or more with the state (On or Off) off every LHS/MSL and CC switch position with the exceptions you noted above. For instance Byte 3: 01h=LT 02h=RT 04h=CT. Only the first six bytes are used for switch data; the last two are Bosch house-keeping.

When you purchase a CANBUS sniffer make sure the software filtering function works. My Spyder's 2.0a CANBUS works at 500kHz and the eleven modules connected to it are talkative! Your 2023 Spyder is probably 2.0b and maybe more talkative.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I'm not understanding this. What do you want the switch to do?
......

Apparently, in BRP/Can-Am's wisdom and desire to ensure the latest up-market Spyder models have some 'special differences', the volume rocker on the hand grip on the lower spec models like broderp's '23 F3-S don't actually do anything; only the volume control down on the 'tank dash' the later models have works actually for them!! :banghead:

But it's still there on the hand grip of the lower spec models, just left there to tease the owners of those models with what they HAVEN'T got!! :cus:

And amongst other things (from my understanding of his 'projects', anyway... ) broderp would simply like to make the rocker switch volume control on the hand grip of his '23 F3-S work, and with this thread, he's trying to find the necessary wiring diag/specs/directions to do so. :thumbup:

 

[BertRemington]

Peter-still not understanding what bro wants done/function performed when switch is pressed. This is an important question

Anyway I explained CANBUS messages. Regarding electrical access I recommend diagnostic port which is probably a Deutsch DT6 like mine. Only two pins needed, Can High and Low. Terminator optional.

Arduino Uno is excellent platform with several MCP2515 CANBUS interface options available. WRT Uno itself you can get the usual $20 which needs extra electronics for protection or spend the extra money for a Uno with better protection on the board.

In summary you want to Listen-mode on the Spyder CANBUS -- easy peasy. You want to transmit to a Spyder module (eg radio) I'll wager $100 you can't do it. Bosch ain't user friendly.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Peter-still not understanding what bro wants done/function performed when switch is pressed. This is an important question
....

I'm pretty sure he just wants the volume to go up and down when he presses the respective Up or Down sides of the Volume rocker switch on the Hand grip.
ATM, it does nothing! :sour:

 

[BertRemington]

Peter -- still not understanding this. Are you saying BRP installed a radio without a functional volume adjustment?

 

[BertRemington]

Thinking this through it seems likely bro's F3 model has a volume adjustment, not on the LHS but in some location 'X'. And other F3 models have the volume adjustment on the LHS.

Some questions:

1. Do the other F3 models have the volume adjustment in both location 'X' and the LHS?

2. Is the volume adjustment at location 'X' a momentary push button similar to the LHS or a rotary knob?

3. If a rotary knob is it smooth action with fixed endpoints (like old radios) or a "clicker" with no endpoints (like modern radios).

If the answer to question 1 is Yes then bro has a slight possibility of winning my wager. But only slight because BRP encodes capabilities according to VIN in the console (also ECM). If the answer is No then bro has a slightly better possibility of winning my wager. I explained the reason in my first post.

 

[broderp]

Thinking this through it seems likely bro's F3 model has a volume adjustment, not on the LHS but in some location 'X'. And other F3 models have the volume adjustment on the LHS.

Some questions:

1. Do the other F3 models have the volume adjustment in both location 'X' and the LHS?

2. Is the volume adjustment at location 'X' a momentary push button similar to the LHS or a rotary knob?

3. If a rotary knob is it smooth action with fixed endpoints (like old radios) or a "clicker" with no endpoints (like modern radios).

If the answer to question 1 is Yes then bro has a slight possibility of winning my wager. But only slight because BRP encodes capabilities according to VIN in the console (also ECM). If the answer is No then bro has a slightly better possibility of winning my wager. I explained the reason in my first post.

I think we are still not quite talking apples to apples, but:

1. Yes, the F3-S has the LH Rocker Switch for volume the same as the F3-T, F3-LIMITED and RT on the LHS but it does not have the keypad like audio controls as found on found on the F3-T and above located on the tank.
2. Yes, it appears to have momentary contacts similar to the JOYSTICK controls.
3. The 2023 has a 4 position joystick and not a rotary control. See the image.

So basically, I have the exact same LH controls (including the volume rocker) but NOT the tank mounted keypad audio controller. Newer F3's use a 4 position joystick controller, with the up and down positions controlling volume when using Bluetooth.

Apparently, in BRP/Can-Am's wisdom and desire to ensure the latest up-market Spyder models have some 'special differences', the volume rocker on the hand grip on the lower spec models like broderp's '23 F3-S don't actually do anything; only the volume control down on the 'tank dash' the later models have works actually for them!! :banghead:

But it's still there on the hand grip of the lower spec models, just left there to tease the owners of those models with what they HAVEN'T got!! :cus:

And amongst other things (from my understanding of his 'projects', anyway... ) broderp would simply like to make the rocker switch volume control on the hand grip of his '23 F3-S work, and with this thread, he's trying to find the necessary wiring diag/specs/directions to do so. :thumbup:

Exactly. Thanks. The "tease" is real. :gaah: I didn't realize the rocker switch was non-functional until after I got the Spyder home and linked my phone and was messing BRP GO (another disappointment lol) and Bluetooth. I have an Electrical Engineering degree, so I'm not a total noob going into this or any electrical upgrade or work. Can-Bus systems are not something I have messed with or know a lot about other than at a fairly high level. I have messed with Arduinos, but would not call myself anywhere near proficient. So it's refreshing to see others on this site who have a clue abut these things and are willing to jump in and offer advise and opinions.

I'm opposed to going "high tech" with this mod, but would also consider a low tech hack if reliable. I also have a 4 year warranty on this Spyder, so I need to consider the anility to reverse the change if needed.

The Can-Am service manual does not give me any technical information on the inner working of the switch. (See the image) There is only a small amount of testing information in the text that basically requires special tools, but ultimately only tells if the part is good or should be replaced. (Conditional troubleshooting)


I assume all the switches (Mode, Parking, Joystick, Volume etc.) that send a signal to through the Can-Bus are mechanical. I Also assume that they are somehow sinking or sourcing (bringing voltage low or high, or inputting a ground or VSS) into a circuit on a specific input that reads the signal and outputs the appropriate Can-Bus signal. Since all Spyder's (F3 and RT) share the same Controls AND display part numbers, I believe the switch is technically functional, but something else prevents the function.

Perhaps the display's are programmed to ignore the switch, and finding a way to activate it would resolve the issue. Perhaps there's another component that I do not know about that is different.

If the signal from the rocker switch is "ignored" then perhaps changing the rocker switch contacts to pulse the same signal the joystick up and down position would then fool the circuit to think its the joystick. :dontknow:

 

[BertRemington]

Nope I don't understand. You have a volume control on the LHS but it doesn't control volume. So how do you control volume?

Here's one problem: every CANBUS message the LHS/MSL transmits (at 10Hz or greater rate) contains the On/Off state of all switches. Two bytes of the message are Bosch housekeeping including a rotating sequence number of some sort. There are debounce algorithms in the console so even if you transmit a message with your desired volume control position, you would have to repeat it for several messages for the console to ensure it wasn't a transient. Meanwhile the CANBUS integrity management algorithms would kick in plus the console would ignore what appears to be a transient between On and Off.

Here's another problem: what CANBUS message(s) is the radio expecting. Again I suspect all switch positions are in one message. So again there is the On/Off conflict I described above.

And another: apparently BRP configures specific Spyder capabilities according to VIN. There is also the Key-On initialization where the console issues RTR messages and configures itself accordingly (eg, I removed my radio and the radio portion of the screens went away).

Based on what I've read in this forum, the physical buttons operate on some sort of bubble membrane under which is the mechanical switch.

So I know my $100 is remaining safely in my pocket.

PS there is one Spyder genius in Poland, megagame, who has done amazing things to his Spyder including CANBUS remediation. Recommended reading.

 

[ARtraveler]

BRP has been notorious on using copy/paste to make the new manuals come out quicker. There have been many gaffes over the years. IMO it is usually NOT the mechanical engineers who are tasked with the Manual project.

The SL site is a good place to ask technical questions that are not addressed or maybe misstated in the manuals.

There are many knowledgeable people on board in a variety of subjects. :yes:

 

[broderp]

Nope I don't understand. You have a volume control on the LHS but it doesn't control volume. So how do you control volume?

Volume is controlled via the joystick. Up presses increase the volume and down presses decrease the volume. Crazy they couldn't activate the rocker switch that is literally there and labeled! :dontknow:

Here's one problem: every CANBUS message the LHS/MSL transmits (at 10Hz or greater rate) contains the On/Off state of all switches. Two bytes of the message are Bosch housekeeping including a rotating sequence number of some sort. There are debounce algorithms in the console so even if you transmit a message with your desired volume control position, you would have to repeat it for several messages for the console to ensure it wasn't a transient. Meanwhile the CANBUS integrity management algorithms would kick in plus the console would ignore what appears to be a transient between On and Off.

Here's another problem: what CANBUS message(s) is the radio expecting. Again I suspect all switch positions are in one message. So again there is the On/Off conflict I described above.

And another: apparently BRP configures specific Spyder capabilities according to VIN. There is also the Key-On initialization where the console issues RTR messages and configures itself accordingly (eg, I removed my radio and the radio portion of the screens went away).

Based on what I've read in this forum, the physical buttons operate on some sort of bubble membrane under which is the mechanical switch.

So I know my $100 is remaining safely in my pocket.

PS there is one Spyder genius in Poland, megagame, who has done amazing things to his Spyder including CANBUS remediation. Recommended reading.

I really appreciate your input BertRemington. This may be year specific, but when you removed the radio and and the radio screens went away, did your volume control still work? This is a loaded question, but I'm wondering if there is a "handshake" protocol that allows certain functions. Perhaps all Can-Am Spyder's have the same programming, but when it boots and goes out to find certain hardware (Radio, amplifyier etc.) it activates the relative part of the firmware for functionality.

I believe the volume Rocker switch works on all the inputs (3.5mm, Bluetooth, Radio) on those models with a radio. If an emulator could be present at boot up to fool the system to think it has a radio....

Or I still wonder if physically tying the Rocker Switch pins to the joystick ones would do the same thing. The problem is I would need a LH control to mess with and test. That's a $460 experiment Yikes... :yikes:

 

[BertRemington]

Volume is controlled via the joystick.

Joystick is that circular knob above the +/- volume paddle? How curious -- two UI devices to perform the same function.

When I removed the radio I also removed the speakers. And the only button I push in what BRP calls the RECC cluster is Mode so I can proceed with starting the engine. I'm not into onboard entertainment electronics.

Having said that I'm sure the buttons themselves are working (they're used for multiple purposes) and their On/Off positions would appear in the 340h message.

On my RT-S the passenger also has a volume control. Based on wire colors (Wht/Lt Grn, Wht/Lt Blu, Bu/Lt Bu) it might be CANBUS but the wires don't have that diagonal slash denoting a CANBUS pair.

So find those passenger control wires (I'm sure BRP left the connector unplugged on the F3), figure out how they work (probably resistors against a bias) and then build an Arduino controller that listens for the +/- volume paddle messages (which your radio ignores) and then transmits whatever the passenger control generates into the radio. That megagame guy did something similar and made it sound easy ... which is why he's a genius. And the nice thing about this approach is it's easy to remove for dealer servicing.

I think I still have my passenger volume control in case you want to plug it into your F3 and see if the radio responds. And I think there's a CANBUS sniffer in your future (No I won't make any recommendations).