998cc Brass shavings in engine oil

[LeoG]

A close friend has a 2010 Spyder RT with the Rotax 998CC engine (called the 990 I believe) and during a regular service at a Western Sydney based dealership the mechanic detected brass shavings in the oil and an obvious noise.
In Australia we get absolutely screwed on servicing and parts for these imported machines and this machine has always been meticulously maintained and serviced. At 60 plus years of age he's not a person to ride hard and it's always been garaged and, maintained by a dealership from new.

I believe the machine in question has around 150,000 kilometres (approx 90,000 miles) on the odometer.

My friend has been told by the western Sydney dealer he could possibly sell the machine as is with engine noise for maybe $3,000 but if he'd like to invest $9,000-$10,000 he may get $12,000 for it.
Purchased new in 2010 and never ridden hard though it is his daily driver to Work.

I had seen either on this forum or another Spyder forum I can't seem to find that brass in the engine oil is the result of a brass bush/plate/bearing in the clutch system on the machine and not main bearings as my friend has been told.

Sadly I can no longer find reference to the problem and knowing the owners here have a collective wealth of priceless information based on experience I'm hoping someone may be able to shed a little light on the problem.

My son has even gone as far as suggesting since the bike isn't ride-able in the condition with the noise (he's been advised not to ride it) perhaps it may be prudent for me to offer my services to strip the motor out and pull it down myself and do the rebuild and save him considerable money. I'm a disability pensioner with a lot of talents, engine building being just one of them and my friend explaining just getting the machine stripped to a point of removing the engine is several thousands of dollars in labour at the dealership.

I really don't have a problem with this idea and previous information pointing to maybe a thrust plate in the clutch or similar, I believe if I could prove that he could have his spyder in a condition to sell and recover some of his original investment (over $30,000 new in 2010 in Aus.)

Any information anyone believes could be relevant to the problem would be VERY much appreciated and if I can help my old friend I'd be very happy to do it (I'd be doing the rebuild for the original cost of parts only, no charge, I sit at home all day so I lose nothing by helping a friend out free.

My friend recently purchased a later (2016 maybe) unit with an automatic transmission easing the pain in his ankle so he's happy to pass the old unit off at a good price to another friend who has major damage from a somewhat recent motorbike accident where a 4 wheel drive went right over top of him and his bike (turning left from a right hand lane and flattening the cyclist). If I could get the bike rebuilt he'd pass it on to his friend for the cost of the rebuild.

Confession time, I have NEVER disassembled a Rotax engine before and would be grateful for any tips or direction to materials which could help.

I'm still hoping the reference to a clutch spigot/plate of some description is correct for the brass in the oil.

I had suggested if Australian high schools had Auto-shop like I've seen in American schools in movies (I have no idea if this is factual but usually referred to as "shop") it would be an ideal project to convert to an electric machine if the school board would cough up the funding. Sadly not going to happen in Australia (the Australian government is the school board and they don't like spending money on student education (sorry, political, not meant to be) but, if the engine is too expensive to repair I may still suggest it as I have a background in electronics engineering (building engines has been a hobby for 45+ years).

Thank you in advance, I really hope someone may have the answer and I'm hoping the reference to clutch issues causing the brass shavings in the oil to be accurate for his sake.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

A close friend has a 2010 Spyder RT with the Rotax 998CC engine (called the 990 I believe) and during a regular service at a Western Sydney based dealership the mechanic detected brass shavings in the oil and an obvious noise.
In Australia we get absolutely screwed on servicing and parts for these imported machines and this machine has always been meticulously maintained and serviced. At 60 plus years of age he's not a person to ride hard and it's always been garaged and, maintained by a dealership from new.

I believe the machine in question has around 150,000 kilometres (approx 90,000 miles) on the odometer.

My friend has been told by the western Sydney dealer he could possibly sell the machine as is with engine noise for maybe $3,000 but if he'd like to invest $9,000-$10,000 he may get $12,000 for it.
Purchased new in 2010 and never ridden hard though it is his daily driver to high school where he is a science teacher.

I had seen either on this forum or another Spyder forum I can't seem to find that brass in the engine oil is the result of a brass bush/plate/bearing in the clutch system on the machine and not main bearings as my friend has been told.

Sadly I can no longer find reference to the problem and knowing the owners here have a collective wealth of priceless information based on experience I'm hoping someone may be able to shed a little light on the problem.

My son has even gone as far as suggesting since the bike isn't ride-able in the condition with the noise (he's been advised not to ride it) perhaps it may be prudent for me to offer my services to strip the motor out and pull it down myself and do the rebuild and save him considerable money. I'm a disability pensioner with a lot of talents, engine building being just one of them and my friend explaining just getting the machine stripped to a point of removing the engine is several thousands of dollars in labour at the dealership.

I really don't have a problem with this idea and previous information pointing to maybe a thrust plate in the clutch or similar, I believe if I could prove that he could have his spyder in a condition to sell and recover some of his original investment (over $30,000 new in 2010 in Aus.)

Any information anyone believes could be relevant to the problem would be VERY much appreciated and if I can help my old friend I'd be very happy to do it (I'd be doing the rebuild for the original cost of parts only, no charge, I sit at home all day so I lose nothing by helping a friend out free.

My friend recently purchased a later (2016 maybe) unit with an automatic transmission easing the pain in his ankle so he's happy to pass the old unit off at a good price to another friend (a fellow high school science teacher) who has major damage from a somewhat recent motorbike accident where a 4 wheel drive went right over top of him and his bike (turning left from a right hand lane and flattening the cyclist). If I could get the bike rebuilt he'd pass it on to his friend for the cost of the rebuild.

Confession time, I have NEVER disassembled a Rotax engine before and would be grateful for any tips or direction to materials which could help.

I'm still hoping the reference to a clutch spigot/plate of some description is correct for the brass in the oil.

I had suggested if Australian high schools had Auto-shop like I've seen in American schools in movies (I have no idea if this is factual but usually referred to as "shop") it would be an ideal project to convert to an electric machine if the school board would cough up the funding. Sadly not going to happen in Australia (the Australian government is the school board and they don't like spending money on student education (sorry, political, not meant to be) but, if the engine is too expensive to repair I may still suggest it as I have a background in electronics engineering (building engines has been a hobby for 45+ years).

Thank you in advance, I really hope someone may have the answer and I'm hoping the reference to clutch issues causing the brass shavings in the oil to be accurate for his sake.

Frankly I'm skeptical about what your friend has been told. ..... The V-twin has proven to be quite reliable, and His mileage is no where near the highest mileage I've seen ..... I'm curious how THEY decided it's BRASS shavings ???? .... good luck ..... Mike :thumbup:

 

[CloverHillCrawler]

Definitely sounds like an oil sample needs to be sent out for testing.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Me Too. Brass, bronze, really tiny air bubbles in dirty oil and in the right light? Did they dissect the oil filter or is this just a visual observation of what's laying in the bottom of a drain pan. How about doing an oil analysis first. This could be a big deal, or not. Get a lab report so that you know exactly what you have. And if there is no oil left to get a sample, run the thing, put some km's back on it and send a sample off for analysis. I can't see doing an engine overhaul based on the information he's been told - not without a backup oil analysis. About the noise - Is this suddenly new since it went to the shop, or did your friend hear anything abnormal before he took it in? If he has been advised not to ride it, must be pretty bad...or is it? If you can make a video of the noise so that we could all listen to it, it might help. But, with straight cut gears and all, the Rotax 998 is not a quiet engine. So, I'd want more info before pulling the engine.

 

[Little Blue]

Oil sample time

Definitely sounds like an oil sample needs to be sent out for testing.

:agree: An oil sample is a valuable tool. Hopefully there is a good oil lab available for you.
I know in Indiana, USA we have such a lab.

Good Luck with Your Mission. ......:thumbup:

 

[Bfromla]

fyi view of what was found when oil pump failed possibly from clutch shavings . 66k miles 998 SE5 (relaxed daily driving) unfortunately there are quite a few “soft” parts involved- brass & plastic:dontknow: honestly was also pushing the limits on oil change at the time. Before switching to fully synthetic.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

View attachment 194035View attachment 194036fyi view of what was found when oil pump failed possibly from clutch shavings . 66k miles 998 SE5 (relaxed daily driving) unfortunately there are quite a few “soft” parts involved- brass & plastic:dontknow: honestly was also pushing the limits on oil change at the time. Before switching to fully synthetic.View attachment 194037View attachment 194038

WOW that is EYE OPENING :gaah::gaah: .......... Mike :thumbup:

 

[LeoG]

Thank you everyone for the opinions and knowledgeable replies.

And a special thanks to Bfromla, that is very informative and somewhat like I'm sure I had read somewhere before!

Sadly, where my friend has to take his machine in Penrith NSW the dealership has changed hands several times, or the mechanics anyway and he's often mentioned it seems like the young fellows doing the mechanical seem to have very little idea of what they are actually doing. I don't know if they have specific training for these machines or, as is common in Australia, young fellows who have grown up working on their dirt bikes, offered mechanical apprenticeships to which there is no dedicated motorcycle mechanic trainee-ship in Aus. There used to be but now I believe it is just straight automotive mechanics and as someone who has been building bike and car engines, gearboxes and differentials (and on occasion the odd outboard motor) for well over 40 years I know many mechanics who just don't get motorcycles. Even a friend with his own mechanical business paid me to rebuild his motorbike engine (old SR500 Yamaha) because I had more experience and he was worried with his training he'd mess something up.

The dealership mechanic stated he thought it was main bearings. I questioned this based on the fact my friend had stated it was brass shavings. Though from memory he did say there was a slight knock. I'll talk to him when he gets back from his weeks holidays.

My friend has always had his machine maintained meticulously from new and has had numerous problems with it over the years.
Reverse seems to disappear a heck of a lot for a modern machine too.

My friend has been told by the dealership several times the machine is now considered vintage or some such thing and as such parts are no longer available. This shocks me in the sense in 2010 when he purchased the machine it was a $40K purchase in Aus.
On top of that every service and repair costs him an absolute fortune. I was quite shocked when he purchased a good, used 2016 model automatic version of the same machine but he's in his 60s, has a few health issues (mainly a stuffed ankle) and his old Honda ST1300 outfit is old and not as reliable for every day use, as again is his old K100LT (86).

I'm not absolutely sure on the availability of a lab testing oil samples anywhere I know of (I'm a long way from knowing everything but spent the majority of my life working in the mechanical industry). I'm sure engine oil removed has long been disposed of by the shop but I will insist he try and knock a few miles up locally while it still has some registration left to see if I can maybe do some research into said lab services.

I had suggested it would be a great donor for an electric conversion but I'm too old to stuff around with it (I'm a couple of years younger than him though). The bigger problem in Australia with even considering that, it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to get engineering certificates to even get the vehicle road worthy by our antiquated laws.

But I have always said the engine should not have the problems it's had for the age of the machine, the way it's been maintained by the dealer from new and the fact he has never ridden the machine particularly hard.
Were he to ride it like I drive my 30 year old Ford Falcon he'd have had to replace it 10 times over by now.

OK, I'm an idiot, my son just did a quick Google search and there's an oil analysis joint in our little country town 3 hours west of Sydney, fascinating, I'm going to have to find out who and where.

 

[LeoG]

Quick update, the oil analysis mob advertising as "local" are in fact 360 kilometres away (240 miles). They advertise as being local to the town I believe because we have mines and they probably fly people down at expense of the mines (unlimited budgets) but they don't actually have any agents or centres locally where the analysis could be done.

Speaking to my friend today and he explained the bike is in limp home mode but confessed even though the bike has always had a slight oil leak the mechanics always told him would require a complete strip down to address and cost thousands of dollars and wasn't worth it for a minor leak. He said he's always checked oil levels and NEVER seen the engine oil light come on.

I mentioned Bfromla's post (thank you yet again!) and suggested yet again it may be in the clutch and information I can find there really shouldn't / can't be brass from anywhere else in the engine as it's not used as bushings or bearings from what I can find. I've also suggested since the bike will soon be unregistered he perhaps do a couple of miles locaaly to see what we can find in the oil and I'll maintain my search for a company who may be able to do the analysis of the oil.

I've also suggested that I'd be more than happy to trailer the bike to my place and strip it down and look into the matter and if it is a clutch gear (which I believe is under a separate engine cover from the photos provided) I could source the gear myself cheaper than he may get it anywhere in Australia, replace it and get the machine on the road so he can sell it and at least recover some of his money.

He's been advised by the service centre he could list it as is for around $3,000 (Australian dollars, equivalent to about $9.95US I believe, LOL) but be prepared to accept a maximum of $2,000. I suggested with that level of financial loss he'd be better of me stripping the unit down and parting it out (selling parts individually). I'd rather be able to help him get the unit back on the road so he can get some of his money back in the least, he's due to retire this coming year and know he could always use the money.

As for the limp home mode, what could be likely to cause that condition as in what sensor would detect anything like that? (If known).

Unfortunately, I'd hoped on the suggestion of my son it may just be a standard OBDII as used in the US from 96. Our own Australian Fords had their older proprietary system until 2006,( MONGRELS) where as my exes American made Ford Taurus had OBDII on the 96 model.

I've since learned from my sons research the Can Am uses a proprietary system (of course they do, the thought of something standard was good while it lasted). I haven't searched the forum but I'm sure there's probably considerable information on the CANBUS system (BRP BUDS) mentioned within the pages. If not, someone may be able to point me in the right direction?

Hmm, wonder if they're good buds?

My son has just told me hardware to deal with this is available on Ebay for $1800 (that may be American dollars, about $6,487,392 IN Australian dollars). It's in Au dollars with license but for a one off use, way out of my price range on disability. And the licensing is per year, no wonder my friend gets charged so much at the service centre, they're still paying off the hardware and license to even check his machine. I'll have to search various dark places on the interwebs and see if I can find the circuitry and a copy of the code. I could build it, my son could program it (a man can dream?)

 

[PMK]

A few years ago, here on Spyderlovers, another owner had a similar issue and removed the engine, then accomplished the repairs. I do not recall his exact failing part, but did mot believe it was the oil pump gear.

I know the search function here can be difficult at times, but you might search for that guys topic.
As for the metal, your best bet initially is inspecting the oil filter. Remove it and wash the element in a clean container with mineral spirits. Ideally you have a glass container to see the debris. If not pour it out through a clean white rag to strain it.

The greatest concern with metal in the oil is how much became circulated and where did it wind up.
I would also question the noise. Possibly it is gear noise from the pump drive gear, or it may be elsewhere.

Still though, search for that old topic, lot of good info for you to take in.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Is the engine a manual or semi-automatic? If an SE5 maybe your easy riding friend didn't rev the engine engine enough to keep the clutch from slipping.

 

[LeoG]

It's a manual (SM5), not too sure on what you mean by not revving the engine enough or do you mean continually slipping the clutch when taking off?

He's an experienced rider, been riding for over 50 years and has a couple of other machines (besides his now 2016 automatic Spyder), an old K100LT and a Honda ST1300 with sidecar. I've not ever noticed him slipping the clutch when taking off and have been on the back of the machine with him (a strange experience as a rider, especially since the rear seat left me sitting at a lean due to the camber in our crappy roads locally, it felt weird).

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

It's a manual (SM5), not too sure on what you mean by not revving the engine enough or do you mean continually slipping the clutch when taking off?

He's an experienced rider, been riding for over 50 years and has a couple of other machines (besides his now 2016 automatic Spyder), an old K100LT and a Honda ST1300 with sidecar. I've not ever noticed him slipping the clutch when taking off and have been on the back of the machine with him (a strange experience as a rider, especially since the rear seat left me sitting at a lean due to the camber in our crappy roads locally, it felt weird).

The Semi-auto trans in the 990 would slip at low rpm. Excessive driving at under about 4000 would lead to clutch slipping and wearing. The manual clutch is not prone to that problem. Since his a manual clutch slipping is not a cause for creating shavings. The auto clutch in the 1330 is positive engagement and not prone to slipping.

 

[LeoG]

Thank You IdahoMtnSpyder (I'm guessing I know which state you live in, lol), handy information to know!

I have no intention of buying a Spyder in the near future as I don't know they are my kind of machine, I'm more of a sidecar enthusiast (despite not owning one for several years) but I am very grateful for the kindness of everyone here who's going out of their way to help me.

Many thanks!

Wishing everyone here a very Happy New year!

 

[mecsw500]

Quick update, the oil analysis mob advertising as "local" are in fact 360 kilometres away (240 miles). They advertise as being local to the town I believe because we have mines and they probably fly people down at expense of the mines (unlimited budgets) but they don't actually have any agents or centres locally where the analysis could be done.

Speaking to my friend today and he explained the bike is in limp home mode but confessed even though the bike has always had a slight oil leak the mechanics always told him would require a complete strip down to address and cost thousands of dollars and wasn't worth it for a minor leak. He said he's always checked oil levels and NEVER seen the engine oil light come on.

I mentioned Bfromla's post (thank you yet again!) and suggested yet again it may be in the clutch and information I can find there really shouldn't / can't be brass from anywhere else in the engine as it's not used as bushings or bearings from what I can find. I've also suggested since the bike will soon be unregistered he perhaps do a couple of miles locaaly to see what we can find in the oil and I'll maintain my search for a company who may be able to do the analysis of the oil.

I've also suggested that I'd be more than happy to trailer the bike to my place and strip it down and look into the matter and if it is a clutch gear (which I believe is under a separate engine cover from the photos provided) I could source the gear myself cheaper than he may get it anywhere in Australia, replace it and get the machine on the road so he can sell it and at least recover some of his money.

He's been advised by the service centre he could list it as is for around $3,000 (Australian dollars, equivalent to about $9.95US I believe, LOL) but be prepared to accept a maximum of $2,000. I suggested with that level of financial loss he'd be better of me stripping the unit down and parting it out (selling parts individually). I'd rather be able to help him get the unit back on the road so he can get some of his money back in the least, he's due to retire this coming year and know he could always use the money.

As for the limp home mode, what could be likely to cause that condition as in what sensor would detect anything like that? (If known).

Unfortunately, I'd hoped on the suggestion of my son it may just be a standard OBDII as used in the US from 96. Our own Australian Fords had their older proprietary system until 2006,( MONGRELS) where as my exes American made Ford Taurus had OBDII on the 96 model.

I've since learned from my sons research the Can Am uses a proprietary system (of course they do, the thought of something standard was good while it lasted). I haven't searched the forum but I'm sure there's probably considerable information on the CANBUS system (BRP BUDS) mentioned within the pages. If not, someone may be able to point me in the right direction?

Hmm, wonder if they're good buds?

My son has just told me hardware to deal with this is available on Ebay for $1800 (that may be American dollars, about $6,487,392 IN Australian dollars). It's in Au dollars with license but for a one off use, way out of my price range on disability. And the licensing is per year, no wonder my friend gets charged so much at the service centre, they're still paying off the hardware and license to even check his machine. I'll have to search various dark places on the interwebs and see if I can find the circuitry and a copy of the code. I could build it, my son could program it (a man can dream?)

Typically oil analysis is done through the mail. They send you a sample bottle, you fill it with oil, mail it off, then get a report via email or in mail.

Looking on E-Bay, a low mileage engine of that vintage usually goes for between $2,000 and $3,000 (US dollars). I'm sure, somewhere in Australia there is a motorcycle breakers that has an available engine? Personally I would go that route rather than stripping and rebuilding the motor you have. If metal swarf of any kind has been roaming around your engine, the results are usually not very healthy, especially if it knocks. 90,000 miles is not low mileage so it would probably require a fair amount of reconditioning if you pulled it apart. Changing engines is just time consuming, stripping and rebuilding one is a lot more work and may require machining and the use of oversize pistons etc. I would just try to get an engine pulled from a wrecked Spyder of the correct vintage and swap it.

If the bike is in good condition I would have thought $3,000 US into it would give many years of riding to come. I guess it just depends upon the access you have to machining equipment etc.

 

[LeoG]

I have a friend who is an engineer and has his own machine shop, machining is easy.
My son has a decent lathe and milling machine.

Finding an engine at a wreckers isn't so easy in Aus, we don't seem to have huge amounts of Spyders.on our roads, they are 3 times the cost of the US.
The knock appears wasn't the engine, it was a noise he'd heard which turned out to be something to do with the exhaust, loose or something, I don't recall what he told me.

 

[Bfromla]

Sorry Late thought & unlikely to be remembered at this point : when initial found shaving, was the oil catch pan wiped out from whatever may been used for previously? Is sometimes easily overlooked especially if busy, distracted, hungry. & if dealership has nothing but rookie techs, maybe second experienced opinion could hopefully focus where & what needs examined. Sorry know limited options to work with. Maybe additional information to help :
https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...doned-Found-it-and-i-am-bring-it-back-to-life

 

[mecsw500]

I have a friend who is an engineer and has his own machine shop, machining is easy.
My son has a decent lathe and milling machine.

Finding an engine at a wreckers isn't so easy in Aus, we don't seem to have huge amounts of Spyders.on our roads, they are 3 times the cost of the US.
The knock appears wasn't the engine, it was a noise he'd heard which turned out to be something to do with the exhaust, loose or something, I don't recall what he told me.

New Spyders seem to be about 10-15% more expensive in Aus, not three times - I would hope not as they are darned expensive enough here. Some of the used ones are a bit cheaper in Aus than the equivalent in the US even. US prices don't include taxes etc, so they may even be closer in price than that. I don't know if Aus prices include taxes. Taxes, always taxes.

There also seems to be more Spyders than you would think in Aus from what I could see from the sites online. I think they would make a great touring machine for Aus, all those lovely long roads. It's been a few years since I have been down under, but driving around the scenery was wonderful, especially on the coastal roads.

I live out here in the US west, all high desert, the coastal roads in Aus were really green and beautiful: perhaps when all the pandemic issues are over, I'll take another trip. Aus really is one of the most beautiful places to ride for sure.

I hope you get your problems with the bike solved, they are great fun to ride.

 

[PMK]

As a suggestion, since very few here are into V Twin Spyders and have internal engine knowledge of them, exit this site and start searching Aprillia sites. Certain Aprillia models utilize the same basic engine, so the failure of metal in the oil might be discussed better elsewhere.

Regarding repair, if you do use a shop, you might have better service and quality from an Aprillia shop.

 

[Joel The Biker]

I have a friend who is an engineer and has his own machine shop, machining is easy.
My son has a decent lathe and milling machine.

Finding an engine at a wreckers isn't so easy in Aus, we don't seem to have huge amounts of Spyders.on our roads, they are 3 times the cost of the US.
The knock appears wasn't the engine, it was a noise he'd heard which turned out to be something to do with the exhaust, loose or something, I don't recall what he told me.

If the knock wasnt the engine, then I doubt the "shavings" are of any concern. There will be some sparkley particles in the oil from the clutch lining. Get an oil sample tested. Cheap and best way to know if its something serious.