Are There Still People Out There Who Don't Think Helmets Are Necessary?

[bone crusher]

Well this is about as touchy of a subject as politics, religion or what oil one should use.

Michigan just recently repealed it's helmet law and I'm all for it. It should be a choice, and I chose to wear mine. I don't wear a helmet just to protect my melon, although it can't hurt. I wear it also to cut down on wind noise, keep bugs off my face, and to use my communicators to talk to my beautiful wife. And it's just so cool looking.

As far as statistics go, you can twist figures to prove your point no matter what side of the fence your on.

To each his own, it isn't worth arguing over people. We all chose to throw our leg over the saddle and partake in one of the most dangerous things most of us will ever do in our lives. I know a lot of people that think we are all crazy for riding, period, with or without a helmet. Motorcyclist in general raise everybody's cost of living. Maybe our Government should abolish the use of motorcycles altogether.

Below is a link to an article that was a good read even though it is just another persons opinion.
http://reason.com/blog/2008/04/01/motorcycle-helmet-laws-save-li

Please show me something to the effect that these numbers are 'twisted'? 'To each his own'...fine...just be 100% responsible should anything happen. Don't expect anyone else to pay for pure out foolishness...I think this is a fair approach. I'm starting to wonder if someone here who is all for 'no helmets' is going to start arguing that everyone else should pay for the injuries too...

 

[SteveMac]

One post and Done. But is is a long one!!! Be forewarned.

I’ve been reading this post and wanted to stay out, but I just had to chime in.

Here is the problem with your argument BoneCrusher. Based on your premise, “You are correct”.

Yes, I said that you are correct and that is where we have a standstill in this debate.

As I read it and understand it, this is the foundation for your position:
§ In a crash, a rider wearing a helmet, especially a full-face helmet, is more likely to “not be injured”, or be “less seriously injured” than a rider wearing no helmet at all.
§ Based on this premise, your argument is that helmets should be mandated by law and all riders should be forced to wear what you or the government decides is safe.
§ The penalty, or perhaps I should say the only alternative, you see is for the rider with no helmet to be 100% responsible for his or her injuries if they want to ride without a helmet.

Ok, so I agree that in a crash, a rider wearing a full-face helmet is less likely to be seriously injured than a rider not wearing a helmet. However, I would argue that a rider in a half helmet or no helmet is more in tune with their environment and may be able to avoid a crash altogether, and thus no injury or claim of any type. I argue this point because it has happened to me. I wear a full face when traveling mainly because of reduced wind noise and my blue tooth capabilities, but when in town or on a two lane twisty, I much prefer a half helmet. I have had experiences where a car pushes into my lane that I was able to detect much quicker (in my experience) than I would have had with a full-face helmet.

I present this argument, because this is what many of the folks on the other side of this debate feel and why they feel it should be a choice and NOT mandated by law.

But you want to be presented with facts and wonder why many think this is a slippery slope. You also state in post 59 that you want others to leave the emotion out of it and only look at the FACTS.

So, based on that I am going to ask you to do the same. You are passionate about this subject and it shows, and I respect that. I even agree with the basic foundation of your point, but I DO NOT agree that law should mandate helmets and here is why.

Take, Arr MiHardies comments from post 29 and his position that he was very affected as a child by the loss of his father from an accident where he was wearing no helmet. Due to this tragic event,Arr MiHardies (my apologies for using your post as an example, but since it was posted here…) is definitely in your camp that says you must wear a helmet because it is safer and the rest of society shouldn’t be punished for your “foolishness” in not wearing a helmet.

Take this a step further and imagine another person, just like Arr MiHardies who also lost a father. However, this time, the rider was wearing a helmet. But the rider died because he was “ON A MOTORCYCLE”. Now the child in this scenario grows up and gets a chance to ban motorcycles, or at least make motorcycle riders “100% Liable” for any injuries they sustain, even if they are wearing a helmet. Because in this person’s eyes, it is FOOLISH for anyone to ride a motorcycle and it isn’t as safe as being in a car. This point is also correct and I agree with it just as I agree with your point about a helmet in a crash being more safe than being without.

However BoneCrusher, now that this point has been made, that riders are more likely to be injured in a crash, EVEN with a helmet than someone in a car. And I am sure since you are a reasonable guy, you would agree with that. Would you also agree that simply riding a motorcycle is “foolhardy” and “unsafe”. Furthermore, would you agree that motorcycles should be banned or at least make the rider “100% Liable” for any injuries they sustain?

My bet is that you would not agree with this statement, because you are a rider and enjoy riding aggressively on that RS from what I have read on here!

You want facts, well in, this article, that very thing is happening. Where traffic safety experts claim that motorcycles should be banned from public highways. It is actually proposed in the UK, and using your logic, could be proposed here.

“Balderdash” you say, the facts don’t support that. Well in this article. IN the 2008 National Statistics, they show that motorcycle riders are 37 times more likely to die in an accident than someone in a car. So therefore, our actions, ((yours and mine)), to ride a motorcycle is foolhardy and dangerous and we should be 100% Liable for injuries.

But as I said, I bet you would not agree with that, because it now will affect you personally.

You see, it is easy for you to say that helmets should be mandated or a helmet-less rider 100% Liable, because it does not affect you. You already wear a helmet, and therefore it “must be right for everyone else”.

But what if someone decides that is “must be right for everyone else” to never ride on an open air vehicle, simply because they don’t , and hey they have the facts to support their position don’t they??

So, this is why it is a slippery slope and I think because you are so passionate about your point, you fail to see this. However, please take a moment and consider the points above that motorcycles are dangerous. Period. Could it be safer with a helmet in a crash? Certainly. But, when in a crash, would it also be safer to be in a car than a motorcycle even with a helmet? Certainly. But I don’t see you or any of the pro-helmet riders taking a position that motorcycles should be banned or at least make the riders 100% Liable for their foolhardy choice to ride an open air vehicle.

You said in post 61 that the numbers aren’t twisted, but in all honesty, you don’t know that for certain because you did not personally do the study or know the background of data that was used to compile the article. Just as I do not know that the articles I quoted aren’t twisted. You merely cited an article (that I read before you posted it by the way) and use it as FACT. And any of us can also cite articles that show how motorcycles should be banned due to safety concerns as FACT. No emotions here, just stating that anyone can cite an article as FACT to support their position.

Sorry for the long post, but I do respect you as a member of this board (I can’t say the same for your ally in post 5) and I do agree that in a crash, you are safer with a helmet.

But if you set your passion aside for a moment, then you must understand why others are equally as passionate about NOT having it be mandated by law, because it truly is a slippery slope.

The heck with this, I gotta head out for Durango!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tierhog]

Previous Medic, now local deputy for 17 years. 20 yr motorcycle veteran. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect people disagreeing with me.

Please wear your helmet and safety gear.

Please.

 

[skeetshooter]

Another view

http://bestmcrides.com/pages/posts/the-great-helmet-debate420.php

 

[flybuddy]

http://bestmcrides.com/pages/posts/the-great-helmet-debate420.php

Thx for posting--interesting read for anyone who's open minded. One psychological issue that I've noticed with aviators that may be in play here. Some folks like to rationalize their personal safety in unconventional endeavors by 1) demanding structure and religiously following all rules 2) most anyone having an accident is "an idiot" that did not follow all of the rules. Therefore since I follow rules, I'm safe to ride, all bad things will only happen to the "idiots". Of course that all goes to crap when a drunken cager runs you down from behind or a deer jumps out into the road five feet in front of you.

 

[Bob Denman]

Has the Michigan race started yet?? pps:
Guys...
This can all be boiled down into one (Well; maybe two!) questions:
At what point do the needs of society for a "collective good" outweigh the needs (Or wants) of the individual?
At what point does "enough" become "too much" for an individual to bear?

:dontknow:

 

[Arr MiHardies]

I'm not saying helmets should be mandated by law, and I don't think I said that in my posts (though i guess it may have seemed that way). I respect your right to choose not to wear a helmet. And since we're all about freedom here, I know you'll respect my right to say that anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is a friggen idiot.




Missing my dad today. I feel even worse for my sister, as my dad died before she was born.

 

[Illinois Boy]

The seemingly small steps to legislate our activities one at a time has accumulated to a greatly diminished state of freedom presently compared to past generations'.

If motorcycles are deemed to be too costly (or an unfair cost to non-motorcycle riders); then they will be outlawed or highly restricted. I assume with "good intentions". However, it will not be too long before you will have a continuation of far-reaching legislation affecting any "activity" deemed to be too costly for others to share-in.

Bicycles, skateboarding, ski-diving, flying in airplanes, drinking, diving, and on and on and on and on... it will simply not stop.

For those that do not believe me... contemplate this.

Do you think your great grandparents would ever believe the Mayor of a major city would make a law limiting the size of a drink served in the city? (Referring to Bloomberg's ban on large soft-drinks.) I don't believe they would have ever imagined that the government would ever become so far-reaching in their efforts to regulate it citizens.

So... give special-interest groups; people with "good-intentions"; or the government an inch and they WILL take a mile... the only thing is that you'll never notice it happened.

 

[Arr MiHardies]

For those that do not believe me... contemplate this.

Do you think your great grandparents would ever believe the Mayor of a major city would make a law limiting the size of a drink served in the city? (Referring to Bloomberg's ban on large soft-drinks.) I don't believe they would have ever imagined that the government would ever become so far-reaching in their efforts to regulate it citizens.

Not arguing, but a point.... I also don't believe they would ever have imagined drink sizes being as large as they are now either.

 

[Bob Denman]

Arr,
Are you telling me that you NEVER wanted to take a bath in a nice, big vat of Coke's finest? :roflblack:
(I'll have the "Indian Tank" size; I'm just not all that thirsty today!)

 

[d.o.spyder-rts]

This is and will continue to be an emotional issue. Do I believe that government should mandate the use of helmets--NO. That being said I believe one should use common sense and wear one while riding. I've unfortunately been hit twice while riding my motorcycles (neither time my fault). I'm glad I wore a helmet because both times, my head hit the road. I may have not been here today without them. We take part in a risky sport. We all accept diffferent levels of risk. If you live in a state that doesn't require helmets, make you own decision. I'll choose to wear one. Dale

 

[aka1004]

If you call another Ryder/member stupid or an idiot for not wearing a helmet, you probably need to wear your helmet all the time.

If you believe you should wear a helmet, knock yourself out but telling others to do it or call them names... Just not cool. Should motorcycles be banned from interstates like some countries because it's deemed to be too dangerous?
Most cagers think we are crazy to get on any motorcycles anyway.

I do wear helmet all the time Even when I am in states without a helmet law and think "that's gonna hurt" when I see Harley riders without one (rarely rarely you see a kid on crotch rocket without a helmet, it's always older Harley riders) but if they choose not to... So be it.

 

[Arr MiHardies]

If you don't wear a helmet, you deserve what's coming if and when there is an accident. But the people close to you don't deserve it. If you love the people around you, you'll wear a helmet. If you don't care enough to save yourself for yourself, care enough to save yourself for them.

To those who still have their fathers in their life, tell them you love them today.

 

[Arr MiHardies]

Most cagers think we are crazy to get on any motorcycles anyway.

Most cagers aren't competent enough to be allowed to drive. I care not what they think.

 

[Robertsepolen]

Wow, this topic always generates strong feelings. I respect each of yours. Just finished 7 nights covering radiology for 5 hospitals including a trauma center. Saw numerous CT scans for falling, fighting, gunshot,as well as car, ATV, scooter and motorcycle crashes. There are so many things we can't avoid or do anything about, it just makes sense to me protect our "squash" when we can. Just an opinion.

I work in a hospital ER. I am gonna wear the helmet!

 

[bone crusher]

The responses here are great and varied...

Failure to wear a helmet costs not only your loved ones but it is a burden on the rest of us to keep you alive (should you survive). This is not a position that can be argued. Someone mentioned that the studies are not valid unless you do the work yourself...come on....that's ridiculous.

I honestly don't care if someone wears a helmet...truth be told, it's none of my business. However, those such people should sign off on their insurance so that if they have a TBI, the rest of us don't have to pay for it. I'm not going to touch on other topics as this is not the place for such...however, there's no questioning that wearing a helmet saves lives...so, I say sign off on insurance coverage if you have a TBI and you are not wearing a helmet.

Is this so unreasonable a request? Should the society really have to pay for foolishness when the numbers clearly show the results? (again, please nobody bring up slippery bathroom floors, smoking, leaving a hose out on the lawn, etc...)...I'd like to stick to this topic as it applies to all of us...

 

[larrymz3]

Personal choice...sure... But, is it fair that those who don't wear helmets and get in accidents are partially the reason for our insurance premiums being so high?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[taggtr]

I've never rode a motorcycle before I got my Spyder, so because of my inexperience in riding I chose to wear a helmet. On my third or fourth ride I was out in the middle of the desert on a two lane highway when a large truck was coming the other way. When it passed I heard a very loud "clunk" and my head jolted backwards. When I pulled over and checked out my helmet, it looked like a rock might have flew up and hit the helmet smack in the middle just above the visor. If I weren't wearing my helmet it could have been a "David and Goliath" moment. Because of that experience I personally choose to continue wearing a helmet. I feel others have the right to choose if they want to wear one or not.

 

[SteveMac]

The responses here are great and varied...

Failure to wear a helmet costs not only your loved ones but it is a burden on the rest of us to keep you alive (should you survive). This is not a position that can be argued. Someone mentioned that the studies are not valid unless you do the work yourself...come on....that's ridiculous.

I honestly don't care if someone wears a helmet...truth be told, it's none of my business. However, those such people should sign off on their insurance so that if they have a TBI, the rest of us don't have to pay for it. I'm not going to touch on other topics as this is not the place for such...however, there's no questioning that wearing a helmet saves lives...so, I say sign off on insurance coverage if you have a TBI and you are not wearing a helmet.

Is this so unreasonable a request? Should the society really have to pay for foolishness when the numbers clearly show the results? (again, please nobody bring up slippery bathroom floors, smoking, leaving a hose out on the lawn, etc...)...I'd like to stick to this topic as it applies to all of us...

It isn't an unreasonable request to you. However you didn't address my point that merely riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving in a car. Is this true or not? In an accident, is any motorcycle rider more prone to injury than someone driving a car?

So lets say a non rider proposes that anyone foolish enough to ride a motorcycle is injured that they should bear 100% of their costs. If a non rider proposed this, would you support it as reasonable?

The facts are clear in both your example and mine. The difference is that my example begins to infringe upon your right to choose. So would that be acceptable to you?

Insurance cost is based on the law of large numbers. So we all do bear the cost of increased injuries. And injuries result in any motorcycle accident, regardless of helmet at a higher rate than if you were driving a car. Nothing in that business operates in a vacuum.

 

[Starrider]

I lucked out when I was in my twenties ("Back When I Knew it All"). Riding with no helmet. Survived a hard drop on my Suzuki 500 when some farmer decided to turn in for a beer at the Last Chance Saloon when I was already in the process of passing him. The good Lord was looking out for a fool. I came out with a bad case of road rash on my face. Still carry some of that parking lot tattooed on my forehead 40 years later. That little ride was my last ride for several decades 'cause the missus gave me the choice between her and my knew family or the bike.

Now I'm on two wheels again,the missus on the Spyder. Like many other posts I've had those hard thunks on the helmet from either big bugs or rocks thrown up by passing vehicles. Every time I remind myself, "That would have hurt.

Ride buddies don't like helmets because they are too hot in the summer and shed them soon as we cross into helmetless states. I'm finding my new Fulmer 3/4 to be vented well enough to be just as cool, if not cooler, than riding without. Therefore, I'll choose to ride with even when riding in states where helmets are not mandated. They can make their own choices.