Anyone else experiencing Braking instability? What possible causes?

[Pooch]

When I purchased my ‘21 RTL (build date February 2021) the tech told me to hard stop several times coming to a stop light. Told me if it obviously pulled hard right or left to bring it in immediately. He told me bad rotors had been an issue on a hit or miss basis.. some of the new bikes have problems..some don’t. Seems he said rotors are not normally a warranteed item but BRP had known of the problem and said they would replace them for free on the new Spyder …IF.. I encountered the problem and got the bike back to the shop before 1000?? miles I THINK he said.. and not 1 mile over that number or else they wouldn’t do it… might have been a lower set mileage.. can’t remember.. could have been 300 miles.. however, I guess I lucked out and have not encountered the problem.. have 8721 miles on it now.. slow summer riding.. was SO hot in Texas.

 

[PMK]

When I purchased my ‘21 RTL (build date February 2021) the tech told me to hard stop several times coming to a stop light. Told me if it obviously pulled hard right or left to bring it in immediately. He told me bad rotors had been an issue on a hit or miss basis.. some of the new bikes have problems..some don’t. Seems he said rotors are not normally a warranteed item but BRP had known of the problem and said they would replace them for free on the new Spyder …IF.. I encountered the problem and got the bike back to the shop before 1000?? miles I THINK he said.. and not 1 mile over that number or else they wouldn’t do it… might have been a lower set mileage.. can’t remember.. could habe been 300 miles.. however, I guess I lucked out and have not encountered the problem.. have 8721 miles on it now.. slow summer riding.. was SO hot in Texas.

If bad brakes, or defective discs, the issue would happen during most braking events. Not just under hard braking.

 

[Navydad]

I too had the issue of my bike pulling to the left in certain braking conditions. Sometimes it was worse than other times. Never to the point of OH CRAP, but certainly a bit concerning a few times. I began researching the WORST possible scenarios since it just had to be something major or radically wrong with my Spyder. Probably gonna cost the price of a new bike to repair. Then while talking to the mechanic of our local dealership in a McDonalds of all places I happened to mention this weirdness. His response. Bleed the brakes. A very good and thorough bleed. Top off the master cylinder at least four or five times and let me know how it does. Oh yeah, since we're in McDonalds you can pay for my lunch. I bought lunch, I did the bleed as he instructed after buying speed bleeders. I have only put about 1200 miles on since the procedure, but so far so good. Bike stops straight and true. 2015 RT with 43,000 miles on it. Just to note. I had bled the brakes at the two year interval like I do on all my bikes, but this time I used speed bleeders and took a bit more time and a good bit more brake fluid to get a thorough flush. Can't say if this will work for everyone, but it got my bike squared away.

 

[exbrc1]

stock rotors are garbage. use E B C brand rotors and sport bike brake pads. I ride really hard and they make a big difference! Just make sure you do a long brake in period E B C recommends at least 200 miles you should try at least 400 miles then you should be able to brake hard with no problem.

 

[ButterSmooth]

Test Day...

Today I had a 70 mile errand to run on roads I don't normally ride. There was a stretch of new road at about 30 miles that was flat, smooth and true, so I decided to test the E-stop behavior under ideal conditions. First from 40 mph, then 60 and 70 the Spyder stopped straight and quickly. When I got to more 'normal' pavement with chain/stud troughs and mounds I ran the test again.

It's now clear that the ill behavior is an interaction between the braking-dive toe-out and the irregular pavement. The Spyder would pull to whichever side had a mound next to one of the front wheels. The front would squat and then try to climb the nearest ridge.

So, it appears that there is no mechanical issue with the Spyder, just a behavior I need to be ready for in heavy braking situaitons on poor (typical around here) pavement.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[bigbadbrucie]

I have 72,000 + mi. on my 14 RT.... I have also tested the it's braking capabilities .... I think it's phenomenal .... Maybe I lucked out and am blessed with a PERFECT Spyder :clap::clap: ..... JMHO ... Mike :thumbup:

I’m with you on this one Mike....also have a ‘14 RTS with phenomenal braking/stopping qualities.

 

[PMK]

I’m with you on this one Mike....also have a ‘14 RTS with phenomenal braking/stopping qualities.

Agree, our 2014 RTS does have phenomenal braking / stopping qualities also. Since my toolbox contains a ROLO laser alignment setup, I have a second non laser setup, and BUDS / BUDS2, this has allowed me to easily adjust toe in as I prefer it. With the toe in set to a higher amount, there is absolutely no shimmy or ill handling. With toe in set reduced, for minimal toe in, allowing the least rolling resistance and least tire scrub, the handling is 99.9% superb.

The exceptions are that under hard braking, not normal braking, but extremely hard braking, the front squirms very slightly side to side once the front drops and the two front wheels toe out. The squirm is not violent and does not pull the Spyder in either direction. Simply, in this condition, as the toed out wheel draws the front one way, the squirm into the chassis alternates sides. So each wheel while squirming is alternating between very slight toe out to toe in.

If I increase toe in slightly more, this squirm will be gone. Since I plan to alter the chassis roll center for the front, I believe I can retain this minimal toe in and reduced tire scrub while lessening or eliminating the squirm.

Regarding Mikes Spyder, he may still run his homegrown shock mounts. If so, they change the suspension leverage ratio towards 1:1, and can better support the front end under hard braking. This reduces bump steer induced toe out and adds stability under braking.

As Buttersmooth posted, the crowning of his lane can result in squirm under braking. The gullies actually induce worse behavior than toe out. Essentially each tire is climbing or descending a gully wall. Not fun.

 

[PMK]

stock rotors are garbage. use E B C brand rotors and sport bike brake pads. I ride really hard and they make a big difference! Just make sure you do a long brake in period E B C recommends at least 200 miles you should try at least 400 miles then you should be able to brake hard with no problem.

Absolutely disagree. Brembo components are no slouch. Currently running EBC brake pads with oem Brembo discs. No issues regarding braking power. The EBC brake pads though tend to be noisy. No, I have not made any modifications to the EBC brake pads and have not applied a coating to the backsides. If Brembos can be silent out of the box, EBC should also.

 

[PMK]

I too had the issue of my bike pulling to the left in certain braking conditions. Sometimes it was worse than other times. Never to the point of OH CRAP, but certainly a bit concerning a few times. I began researching the WORST possible scenarios since it just had to be something major or radically wrong with my Spyder. Probably gonna cost the price of a new bike to repair. Then while talking to the mechanic of our local dealership in a McDonalds of all places I happened to mention this weirdness. His response. Bleed the brakes. A very good and thorough bleed. Top off the master cylinder at least four or five times and let me know how it does. Oh yeah, since we're in McDonalds you can pay for my lunch. I bought lunch, I did the bleed as he instructed after buying speed bleeders. I have only put about 1200 miles on since the procedure, but so far so good. Bike stops straight and true. 2015 RT with 43,000 miles on it. Just to note. I had bled the brakes at the two year interval like I do on all my bikes, but this time I used speed bleeders and took a bit more time and a good bit more brake fluid to get a thorough flush. Can't say if this will work for everyone, but it got my bike squared away.

Yes, a great suggestion. Proper calendar life limit the brake fluid as specified in the owners manual. The Spyder brake system does not run sealed caps on the reservoir, so adhering to the calendar limits for complete flush and bleed is important.

Also agree with your techs words to ensure no air is entrapped after flushing / bleeding. For over a decade now, I am very particular about the brake fluid I use, and will degas the fluid before flushing the brake system. Compared to race bikes, Spyders are not hard on brake fluid. They simply require routine flush and bleed done correctly. I do not use Speed Bleeders on our Spyder, but do get a helper to assist obtaining a proper flush / bleed.

 

[EdMat]

I have had annoying pulling to one side during braking show at the point I needed to replace the pads on the front. I had slight pulling to one side after that but it was corrected once Spyderpops aligned the front.

That said I love the braking capabilities of my 2019 RTL. Especially panic braking. I define panic braking as having to step on the pedal hard enuff that the floorboard goes into breakaway mode. Anything less is just stopping fast.

At SITO this year I had the Elka Stage II shocks installed on the front. As I had the BajaRon sway bar already installed the handling improvement was slight but noticeable. Where I got my moneys worth was in panic braking. The forward transfer of weight was more controlled and the excellent braking got even better.

 

[FrogmanDave]

I stomped really hard on my brakes tonight to see what I would get. It tracked very straight although the tranny freaked out trying to downshift so fast

EBC pads are very noisy. The stock Brembo components are more than capable of taking care of our braking requirements. I'll stick with Brembo when I need replacement parts.

 

[PMK]

I stomped really hard on my brakes tonight to see what I would get. It tracked very straight although the tranny freaked out trying to downshift so fast

EBC pads are very noisy. The stock Brembo components are more than capable of taking care of our braking requirements. I'll stick with Brembo when I need replacement parts.

Buttersmooth, the person that started this topic did some testing. He tested hard braking on a flat road surface, and hard braking on a gullied from tire wear road surface. He reported back, pretty typical results. On the flat surface, his Spyder had no issues, whereas on the gullied surface, the Spyder tended to wander.

I assume FrogmanDave tested on a flat road surface, but he can correct me if wrong. If so, his results are as expected.

 

[PMK]

In post #28, I mentioned noise from the EBC brake pads. Wanted to clarify, noise is not the typical squeak, but rather a whirring, or buzzing sound under even light braking. There are no mechanical or other concerns, merely sounds as it the disc and pad contact generate the sound. No issues that alter brake performance. No plans to pursue or remedy it, unless there is a known one time simple fix.

Semi related, I have had other vehicles, where changing brake pads from one brand to another did similar things. So again, not worried about this.

 

[pidjones]

Still <10k miles on our '21 RTL. It is not as stable as I'd like, but used to it and anticipate it, now. Last week several hard stops initiated by brain-dead cagers resulted in controlled ABS stops, which was reassuring.

Honestly, for all the publicity and postings about Tesla's AI, I prefer thst over the zero intelligence of the majority drivers.

 

[BajaRon]

Absolutely disagree. Brembo components are no slouch. Currently running EBC brake pads with oem Brembo discs. No issues regarding braking power. The EBC brake pads though tend to be noisy. No, I have not made any modifications to the EBC brake pads and have not applied a coating to the backsides. If Brembos can be silent out of the box, EBC should also.

It depends on the compound. EBC pads are usually quiet out of the box. Softer compounds are usually quieter. This is why most bikes now come with organic pads. But they don't last as long and they don't stop as well. I give the quieting tips more as insurance than for common issues. You can get noise from any set of pads. It just depends as there are a number of variables.

 

[PMK]

It depends on the compound. EBC pads are usually quiet out of the box. Softer compounds are usually quieter. This is why most bikes now come with organic pads. But they don't last as long and they don't stop as well. I give the quieting tips more as insurance than for common issues. You can get noise from any set of pads. It just depends as there are a number of variables.

Metal compound, probably HH. Stop fine, minimal if any squeaks, simply just a whirring noise when brakes applied. Not super loud but can heard. No idea which variable as you called it causes it, but it stops fine.
Been a while, but thought the oem Brembos were 100% pad surface, while the EBC pad had a slot. Pretty sure I just accepted the slot was playing with the drilled holes in the discs.

Regardless, they work, and this is a motorcycle, not a soundproofed car.

 

[FrogmanDave]

I assume FrogmanDave tested on a flat road surface, but he can correct me if wrong. If so, his results are as expected.

Yes. Absolutely flat, smooth road.