100kph slide, is nanna nuts or saviour ???

[Cobwebs]

So had a bit of a moment yesterday on my F3s Daytona.Was heading home after a great day through the twisties with the wife on board. Heading uphill on a straight section with a bit of a dogleg turn to the left ,no oncoming traffic so kept the throttle into it but would have normally nursed the throttle a bit to keep it all sane had there been any traffic.. Think I was in fifth or sixth gear can't remember, as I initiated the turn the Spyder spat sideways in an instant with tyres howling and we were both just passengers.My initial thought was something had broken or the rear wheel had locked I steered into it and pulled it back from what felt like about a 40 degree angle. As quickly as it happened we were straight again, had washed off a bit of speed and I headed to a pull off area two more corners away to change our undies.Got off the bike and said to the wife wtf just happened ? She said why did you slam on the brakes like that I could have fallen off if I hadn't been holding on.I replied my foot was no where near the bloody brakes it did it itself. We crept home with an uneasy feeling and as we did I remembered fellow Aussie member Treva had recently posted about a similar drama a while back.
Fast forward to today Monday and called my dealer who said bring it in I'll have a coffee ready for you and we'll hook up Buds,great service.Anyhow turns out there is a download from BRP he needs so couldn't get to it while I was there as it was going to take hours to download so we left it for another day that suits.
Road was dry, stock tyres were 16psi front 28 rear,battery shows 13v static load,Elka rear shock,heavier sway bar, increased preload on stock front shocks, laser aligned, bike corners like it's on rails normally with ocassional nanny tsk tsk on the tight stuff, no codes shown on dashboard 4,000 k's on Spyder my first one but not my first rodeo.
In the mean time till the update I'm just wondering if any one else has had a similar event and if it's a common thing or could it be that I simply lost traction and nanny saved the day.It was really violent beyond what I would expect from a nanna but hey here to learn any thoughts?

 

[treva]

Glad to hear both of you are OK. Bloody frightening isn't it. Our RT definitely locked up the rear wheel at about 30kph. You sound a little confused as to what actually happened [ lockup or slide ] & I can understand that. Nevertheless, that happening at 100kph is scarily off the scale.
Could there have been some fluids on the road to cause your F3s to lose traction? That said, what happened shouldn't have.
Let the dealer in conjunction with BRP sort it out. I hope for your sake your bike is still under warranty. It may be quite some time before your ride is back on the road.

Our RT runs as it should, but the uneasiness, although subsiding, is still there every time we ride it.

 

[Batmobil-F3]

I have had a similar experience, see thread https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?124547-curve-blocked-wheel&p=1464266&viewfull=1#post1464266

 

[JeffandLori]

I did. Lower speed about 30-35mph. Right hand curve uphill off camber to the left. Was ridding a bit aggressive with wife on back. Gassed it, the nanny slammed on the brakes, took steering away and parked us in the left lane. Had oncoming traffic been there we would have been goners. Had oncoming traffic been there I wouldn't have punched it. ECO was on. We had been setting off the nanny regularly on low speed hard right handers but it usually just applied the brakes a bit. Was really uncomfortable about losing the steering. I since put on the fox shocks and reduced the body roll enough that it hasn't set off since. In my opinion the roll was causing the nanny to kick in with any harder turning.

 

[Cobwebs]

Glad to hear both of you are OK. Bloody frightening isn't it. Our RT definitely locked up the rear wheel at about 30kph. You sound a little confused as to what actually happened [ lockup or slide ] & I can understand that. Nevertheless, that happening at 100kph is scarily off the scale.
Could there have been some fluids on the road to cause your F3s to lose traction? That said, what happened shouldn't have.
Let the dealer in conjunction with BRP sort it out. I hope for your sake your bike is still under warranty. It may be quite some time before your ride is back on the road.

Our RT runs as it should, but the uneasiness, although subsiding, is still there every time we ride it.

Hey treva I have been super confident in the ability of this thing since the few mods I've done but this has taken me aback a bit.I should have gone back for a look for oil or something on the road but was in a bit of a twirl at the time.There were two cars behind us at the time that stayed on the road and gave a toot as they went past us, probably thanks for the stunt show we gave them! Alright for them no centre tyre or nanny to contend with.
Warranty is still running (phew) wouldn't want to pay for a lets throw some parts at it party for this investigation.
Reading through some other stuff on this sort of trick someone mentioned the steering angle sensor as a possible variable.Mine wasn't checked on Buds at the wheel alignment so don't know if that can play a part,bike has never cancelled the indicators properly is that a connection of any sort? I did ask the tech at the dealers if it needed setting at a wheel alignment (which i performed myself because no one has any equipment or knowledge where I live)and he said not important no need to bring it in although other comments say yes should be checked so conflicting messages there, I'm going to have them check it if I can get back there tomorrow.
Thing is our Spyders are as safe as houses long as you don't invoke nanny but where's the fun in that! My F3 takes a fair bit to get her angry normally and this particular corner was no worse that the previous thousand it had devoured which is the worrying part.

 

[stmike 1800]

How can the nanny apply the brakes ,the ABS takes away pressure to stop a lock up but can not apply pressure .The VSS takes away speed when a front wheel is off the ground to help prevent a roll over .Please help me understand how a VSS can lock up the wheels ??

 

[Cobwebs]

How can the nanny apply the brakes ,the ABS takes away pressure to stop a lock up but can not apply pressure .The VSS takes away speed when a front wheel is off the ground to help prevent a roll over .Please help me understand how a VSS can lock up the wheels ??

I don't know if my wheels locked or not.At 100 klicks it veered way more than my steering input and the tyres howled from the sideways action.If I have hit a blob of grease or something then nanny has possibly saved me and my wife from eating through a straw for a while.Either way I want to drill down into this for everyones benefit.

 

[Spyderlass]

...Either way I want to drill down into this for everyones benefit.

Please be sure to come back with your conclusion. :thumbup:

I'm pleased you've survived it ok!

 

[treva]

At 100kph, 2up, riding through corners & you upset the nanny, there is a lot going on. I may be wrong, but do we really know the 'TECH Nerds" covered all the parameters that a rider can throw at this bike & not confuse even momentarily something in the safety systems.
The indicators not cancellation properly is an indication of the steering not centered. BUDS will centre it...treva

 

[Freddy]

How can the nanny apply the brakes ,the ABS takes away pressure to stop a lock up but can not apply pressure .The VSS takes away speed when a front wheel is off the ground to help prevent a roll over .Please help me understand how a VSS can lock up the wheels ??

See reply 12 and following:

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?120938-Frightening&highlight=vss+inputs

 

[h0gr1der]

How can the nanny apply the brakes ,the ABS takes away pressure to stop a lock up but can not apply pressure .The VSS takes away speed when a front wheel is off the ground to help prevent a roll over .Please help me understand how a VSS can lock up the wheels ??

The Nanny can apply brakes autonomously.

From my 2019 RTL manual. (I ride a 2018, but the 2019 manual is more complete)

 

[h0gr1der]

I don't know if my wheels locked or not.At 100 klicks it veered way more than my steering input and the tyres howled from the sideways action.If I have hit a blob of grease or something then nanny has possibly saved me and my wife from eating through a straw for a while.Either way I want to drill down into this for everyones benefit.

I'm interested in this wheel lockup phenomenon. Currently there are 5 threads containing 6 incidents of this happening, with one that said they hydroplaned. That hydroplaning incident would explain why the brakes locked up, so that leaves us with 5 incidents. All of these need to be resolved with a non-biased answer. Maybe get the NTSB involved.

1. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?108341-Uncontrolled-braking&referrerid=34189


2. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?113520-The-end-of-Chuck&referrerid=34189
(Hydroplane may have caused this one)

3. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?120938-Frightening&referrerid=34189


4. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?124547-curve-blocked-wheel&referrerid=34189


5. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...ide-is-nanna-nuts-or-saviour&referrerid=34189
(2 separate incidents in this thread)

 

[billybovine]

How can the nanny apply the brakes ,the ABS takes away pressure to stop a lock up but can not apply pressure .The VSS takes away speed when a front wheel is off the ground to help prevent a roll over .Please help me understand how a VSS can lock up the wheels ??

The VCM can apply the brakes. That's what the pump is for. It can apply the rear or front as needed to try and get you out of trouble. It's not clear if the front each side can be applied independently. In the service manual. But I believe it can. There are only 2 pumps driven by 1 motor but valving should be able to independently control each side.

I found out years ago. When I put a Kumho tire on the back of my STL. It just did not stick to the road. When the tire broke loose suddenly. The stability system was just was not fast enough and I ended up backwards on the shoulder of the road.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Hey cobwebs. The Yaw Rate Sensor is the primary sensor input to the nanny regarding turns and rate of change of velocity and attitude. Since your machine is at the dealers now, ask him to do a reset of that sensor with BUDS. The procedure should be in his repair manual. If it’s anything like the RT procedure, it’s 5 minutes and a couple mouse clicks. This may not be an issue but it will cover that base just in case.

 

[JP58]

I took a corner way to fast once.( Once, yeah right) The nanny shut down throttle and braked. I think she saved my butt. It was startling to say the least.

 

[LeftCoast]

Add me to the list of surprise nanny visits; took a hard left turn off a main thoroughfare onto a side street while a car was at the stop sign waiting to pull out of the intersection once I had turned. Nanny kicked in and stopped me dead center in from of the other driver who had started to pull out thinking I'd be well clear by the time he did. Well I wasn't and he had to slam on his brakes.

It's not the nanny kicking in that bothers me most times, it's that I don't know when its going to happen and what the behavior will be. If there's one thing I'd like to see more of in the Spyder training classes its provoking the nanny so you can see and experience what she's going to do under what circumstances.

I'll say I had a similar experience with my 2016 Maxima too. It thought I was going to rear end a car that was turning right so it slammed on the brakes for me and almost got me rear ended instead. Startled the crap out of me. Yes the safety margin I gave myself was small but I was not going to hit the car in front of me.

 

[MeudtPG]

WOW - I second this! We need to resolve these safety incidents ASAP and clear the air!
Am I hearing this stuff is happening with our Spyders while we are going down the highway and BRP is not involved yet? Again - WOW!!!

I'm interested in this wheel lockup phenomenon. Currently there are 5 threads containing 6 incidents of this happening, with one that said they hydroplaned. That hydroplaning incident would explain why the brakes locked up, so that leaves us with 5 incidents. All of these need to be resolved with a non-biased answer. Maybe get the NTSB involved.

1. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?108341-Uncontrolled-braking&referrerid=34189


2. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?113520-The-end-of-Chuck&referrerid=34189
(Hydroplane may have caused this one)

3. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?120938-Frightening&referrerid=34189


4. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?124547-curve-blocked-wheel&referrerid=34189


5. https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...ide-is-nanna-nuts-or-saviour&referrerid=34189
(2 separate incidents in this thread)

 

[Cobwebs]

At 100kph, 2up, riding through corners & you upset the nanny, there is a lot going on. I may be wrong, but do we really know the 'TECH Nerds" covered all the parameters that a rider can throw at this bike & not confuse even momentarily something in the safety systems.
The indicators not cancellation properly is an indication of the steering not centered. BUDS will centre it...treva

Your right, I would imagine the VSS unit supplied would be made to a price to suit BRP so whether it covers all scenarios or not is the question I guess.

 

[Cobwebs]

Hey cobwebs. The Yaw Rate Sensor is the primary sensor input to the nanny regarding turns and rate of change of velocity and attitude. Since your machine is at the dealers now, ask him to do a reset of that sensor with BUDS. The procedure should be in his repair manual. If it’s anything like the RT procedure, it’s 5 minutes and a couple mouse clicks. This may not be an issue but it will cover that base just in case.

Thanks SS. I brought the bike home till they can get the ''download issue sorted out'':banghead: I'm thinking it will be next week now so I will mention the yaw sensor reset to them.
I'm going back up to the corner in question today to see if I can add anything to the mystery and will report any findings.

 

[Cobwebs]

No nothing there but an early morning shadow that was gone when we passed through on sunday afternoon.I hit the corner twice at the same speed (solo this time no one wants to go crash test dummy,funny that) it's just a nice fast sweeper it's even slightly banked, felt two minor bumps that could maybe lighten the bike at double the speed if you were game, no smell of diesel or oil on the verges, nothing.
If buds doesn't show anything I'm screwed for an explanation as to why it happened and won't know if i'm riding Jekyll and Hyderay: or Nanny the Daytona Demon:shemademe_smilie:.