Does this Ultra Plus Full Synthetic 10W40 oil work for our Spyders?

BajaRon said:

I believe what many people may be missing in this discussion is the vast difference between a well functioning engine and one that fails. Personally, I don't think prevention of total failure should be the bench mark we shoot for.

If the 20w that XPS and other lubricants shear down to at around 5,000 miles is OK for another 4,300 miles (recommended service interval). Why not spec 20w oil to begin with?

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I would wonder that myself, indeed.

My dealer recommends 5,000 mile oil change intervals. You could say that's just the dealer extracting more money but after a while a good service department that you learn to trust gets to know what works out best from their experiences in real world use. They have years of cumulative knowledge, if they are a decent shop with experienced techs, and I therefore bow to their experience.

I live at 5,000 feet above sea level where the desert sand and dust blows constantly and summer heat is blisteringly hot. So I get my oil changes done at about half the manufacturer recommended intervals at about 5,000 miles as I think my environment can be regarded as "harsh running conditions."

I understand BRP are trying to look good on paper with lower maintenance and servicing costs and I'm possibly wasting money on too frequent oil changes some times, but old habits die hard. I want my engine to do far more than just hold together over its service life.

mecsw500 said:

I would wonder that myself, indeed.

My dealer recommends 5,000 mile oil change intervals. You could say that's just the dealer extracting more money but after a while a good service department that you learn to trust gets to know what works out best from their experiences in real world use. They have years of cumulative knowledge, if they are a decent shop with experienced techs, and I therefore bow to their experience.

I live at 5,000 feet above sea level where the desert sand and dust blows constantly and summer heat is blisteringly hot. So I get my oil changes done at about half the manufacturer recommended intervals at about 5,000 miles as I think my environment can be regarded as "harsh running conditions."

I understand BRP are trying to look good on paper with lower maintenance and servicing costs and I'm possibly wasting money on too frequent oil changes some times, but old habits die hard. I want my engine to do far more than just hold together over its service life.

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You bring up a few good points. #1, not everything the dealership recommends is an attempt to separate you from your wallet. Unfortunately, so many feel they can say untruths that it's made us all very sceptical.

#2, the service interval for the 998 V-Twin was 4,500 miles with essentially the same oil. Not surprisingly, this is right where the XPS oil begins to deteriorate. I'm not shocked that the engineers tested and knew this to be a fact and recommended service intervals accordingly.

From much analysis on ours and customer's Spyders, we've discovered that both the 1330 and the 998 shear the oil at pretty much the same rate. Again, not surprising since it is the transmission and not the engine that does this damage. So why the huge increase in recommended sevice mileage? In my opinion, you're speculation on this point is spot on.

As always mentioned, no one is blowing up engines running XPS to 9,300 miles. My only point is that there should be more to the discussion.

If I were running XPS oil, I'd be changing between 4.5 & 5k. I feel that your dealer's advice here is valid.

BajaRon said:

You bring up a few good points. #1, not everything the dealership recommends is an attempt to separate you from your wallet. Unfortunately, so many feel they can say untruths that it's made us all very sceptical.

#2, the service interval for the 998 V-Twin was 4,500 miles with essentially the same oil. Not surprisingly, this is right where the XPS oil begins to deteriorate. I'm not shocked that the engineers tested and knew this to be a fact and recommended service intervals accordingly.

From much analysis on ours and customer's Spyders, we've discovered that both the 1330 and the 998 shear the oil at pretty much the same rate. Again, not surprising since it is the transmission and not the engine that does this damage. So why the huge increase in recommended sevice mileage? In my opinion, you're speculation on this point is spot on.

As always mentioned, no one is blowing up engines running XPS to 9,300 miles. My only point is that there should be more to the discussion.

If I were running XPS oil, I'd be changing between 4.5 & 5k. I feel that your dealer's advice here is valid.

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Interestingly, if you look at Aprilia, who used essentially the same Rotax 998 cc engine often in a similar state of tune, they generally recommended a 15w-50 oil instead of Can Am's specified 10w-40.

Aprilia also, like Can Am, recommend changing the oil every 4500 miles on the 998 engine, suspiciously close to half the recommended Can Am intervals for the 1330.

Yes the Aprilia and Can Am 998 engines differed slightly internally as did their gearboxes, but shear levels are likely similar. Interesting that Aprilia specified a higher weight of oil perhaps to compensate for shear rates.

The transmission, as you say, is probably responsible for a majority of the oil shear and the 998 and 1330 engines aren't that different in this regard.

I'm with you, and my dealer's recommendation, in shortening the oil change intervals significantly over what is specified in the user guide. Just because you can run 9,300 mile intervals doesn't mean you should, and I think your data seemingly backs that up. I don't think even changing brands from the new XPS "full" synthetic to some top of the line name brand alternatives such as Mobil-1 or Motul would make me change my mind on that matter without a lot of data to the contrary.

Thanks for your information on this, real world data matters.

We've also done extensive testing with Amsoil. And we have a varying amount of data on other brands. But I focus on Amsoil because that's what we sell at the shop. Though I suspect that any quality, true synthetic, Type IV base oil would have similar results.

We consistantly find that both the 1330 and 998 test out at between 36~38 viscosity at 10k service intervals. This is regardless if the mileage occurs within 1, 2, or even 3 years. We wouldn't recommend a 10k service interval to our customers without this information.

So you are saying with XPS semi synthetic and type III base oils you recommend 5,000 mile intervals?

However for quality type IV full synthetic base oils you are good out to 10,000 miles?

I wonder where the new XPS “full” synthetic sits? I’ve no idea what its base stock is I’m afraid.

Sorry to ask, but I’m a little confused.

CopperSpyder said:

You recommend 10K service with the 998?

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No, we don't. It's just that I've run my 998 that far just to see. There are other factors beyond viscosity.

mecsw500 said:

So you are saying with XPS semi synthetic and type III base oils you recommend 5,000 mile intervals?

However for quality type IV full synthetic base oils you are good out to 10,000 miles?

I wonder where the new XPS “full” synthetic sits? I’ve no idea what its base stock is I’m afraid.

Sorry to ask, but I’m a little confused.

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I don't mean to make it sound confusing.

BRP has consistently used Castrol products. The company that pioneered being able to label a non-synthetic oil, Synthetic. I have nothing against Castrol. They took a run at misleading marketing and won in court. The information is out there so people can make an informed selection.

Oil has come a very long way over the years. At the same time, tolerances have gotten a lot tighter. Computers have been introduced, and engines require better lubricants to meet their life expectancy. Emissions additions add yet another layer of stress and wear. In some applications, like big trucks, these can cut expected engine life in half.

But back to our Spyders. I assume that the XPS 'Full Synthetic' is a Type III mineral oil with an additive package. Simply replacing the blended portion of the previous lubricant with 100% instead of 10% synthetic. I have not looked into this or done any test analysis on this oil. I'd love for a SpyderLover who would like to do this and publish their results here.

We do recommend a 10k service interval on the 1330 using Amsoil 10/40 MCF. 10K is easy to remember and we've seen negligible deterioration of the oil from 9,300 miles to the 10k mark.

The 05/40 Blended Oil does not see really any appreciable loss of viscosity from about 5,000 miles to 9,300. It goes to 20 weight at around 5,000 miles and is virtually unchanged at 9,300.

troop said:

I'm still waiting to read who has the first oil related engine failure here using in spec grade. If an oil meets API requirements, it should be good to go....

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You are correct it will be good to go. However, remember these standards are the minimum that have to be achieved to get a rating. Oil manufacturers include additives for stressful use like racing, heat, off road, etc, so even though a cheap oil may have a standard, more expensive oils from reputable manufacturers have specific oils that are better and I believe a Spyder requires a more durable oil due to its weight and the heat it produces. Just my opinion, and at the end of the day, we are all adults and make our own call.

The oil I use does shear down to 20w in 5000 miles but then I change it at 4500 miles. This is up from every 3000 miles back in the old 2 wheels days, which was up from every 1000 miles originally, and that was on a motorcycle with separate trans but no filter. We have come a long way baby.

BajaRon said:

No, we don't. It's just that I've run my 998 that far just to see. There are other factors beyond viscosity.


I don't mean to make it sound confusing.

BRP has consistently used Castrol products. The company that pioneered being able to label a non-synthetic oil, Synthetic. I have nothing against Castrol. They took a run at misleading marketing and won in court. The information is out there so people can make an informed selection.

Oil has come a very long way over the years. At the same time, tolerances have gotten a lot tighter. Computers have been introduced, and engines require better lubricants to meet their life expectancy. Emissions additions add yet another layer of stress and wear. In some applications, like big trucks, these can cut expected engine life in half.

But back to our Spyders. I assume that the XPS 'Full Synthetic' is a Type III mineral oil with an additive package. Simply replacing the blended portion of the previous lubricant with 100% instead of 10% synthetic. I have not looked into this or done any test analysis on this oil. I'd love for a SpyderLover who would like to do this and publish their results here.

We do recommend a 10k service interval on the 1330 using Amsoil 10/40 MCF. 10K is easy to remember and we've seen negligible deterioration of the oil from 9,300 miles to the 10k mark.

The 05/40 Blended Oil does not see really any appreciable loss of viscosity from about 5,000 miles to 9,300. It goes to 20 weight at around 5,000 miles and is virtually unchanged at 9,300.

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Thanks for the info.

Being forever curious about what XPS 5W-40 4T Fully Synthetic (part number 9779492 for a quart) actually consists of, I thought I'd read the Safety Data Sheet to at least get a clue.

However, BRP only publishes the data sheet for the old Semi Synthetic Blend version on its XPS lubricants website, but not the replacement fully synthetic oil.

After researching that, apparently in the US by OSHA rules they must produce an SDS for consumers upon demand, so I sent them the following inquiry to https://www.brp.com/en/resources/contact-us.html:

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Subject: Request for Safety Data Sheet (SDS) – Engine Oil Product
Hello,
Could you please provide the current Safety Data Sheet (SDS) for the following product:
Product name: XPS 4T 5W-40 Fully Synthetic Oil part number 9779492
Viscosity grade: 5W-40
I am reviewing chemical composition and require the most recent revision. The safety data sheet for the current product is not yet available on the XPS lubricants website.

Thank you.

Please note: SDS provision is a regulatory obligation under OSHA HazCom
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We shall see what they say. Apparently they are only required to make it available down to the dealer level unless requested by a member of the public.

I will share my findings.

I tried looking up the meaning of "Fully Synthetic" in Canada, but it turns out it is surprisingly as vague a legal requirement there as it is here in the US. Interestingly, in the UK, they seem to only sell bottles in suspiciously identical packaging with the new color top as "Synthetic Blend" despite their legal labeling requirements in the UK being about the roughly same as the US and Canada, and equally vague. I'll try Germany next as their consumer laws are really strict and to be a true fully synthetic or “Vollsynthetisch" oil it must be a Type IV or V base. Inquiring minds need to know these things.

Thanks again for the help.